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Are there any keys here?

Started by MR.COMICBOOK,

224 posts in this topic

sckao

sckao

Posted
Posted
Well, now we're just tossing any ole krappy first issue on the list.

 

Yeah... I don't agree with some of the issues on the list either. After a while, maybe we'll run a poll and eliminate some of them. (shrug)

 

Feel free to say which ones shouldn't be on the list...

 

Some are keys just by always being on Dealer Racks really.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Schmakt

Schmakt

Posted
Posted

I don't understand why Harbinger #1 is on the list.

 

Magnus, I can kind of see...

and I'd put Rai #1 on the list before Harbinger... Rai was the first VALIANT-created hero.

Plus Harbinger sucked. ;)

 

(and I don't really think either of them belong on the list)

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Schmakt

Schmakt

Posted
Posted

Actually, as far as "keys" go, I also can't see a lot of these as qualifying...

 

1981

Avengers Annual 10 (First Rogue) (Rogue has never been a big enough character to warrant her first appearance being key)

 

Daredevil 168 (First Elektra) (ok, this works...)

Dazzler 1 (Start of Copper Age? Start of Direct Age?) (Ok...)

Flaming Carrot 1

Love and Rockets 1

Nexus 1

(Have a hard time with all 3 of the above... maybe Love and Rockets...)

X-men 141-142 (Days of Future Past), 143 (X-men title change) (I don't think any of these are important enough to warrant "key" status...)

 

1982

Daredevil 181 (Death of Elektra) (If she was actually dead, maybe... who knows what this whole Skrull thing will do... I say no on this one too tho.)

Marvel Contest of Champions (1st Marvel limited series) (No one actually cares about this, do they?)

Marvel Fanfare 1 (ditto...)

Marvel Graphic Novel 1 (Death of Captain Marvel) (Ok... good.)

PPSS 64 (Cloak and Dagger) (Cloak has been showing up a lot... but, at this point, I'd say this is like saying that the first appearance of Puma or Rocket Racer is a key...)

Primer 2 (First Grendel) (Right on :))

Wolverine LS (Yeah, ok... maybe just #1 as a "key" tho.)

 

1983

Amazing Spider-man 238 (Tentatively ok... very minor key tho...)

Omega Men 3 (First Lobo) (the more I think about this, the more I think Lobo was a good creation in his time and place... he helped usher in all the dark and blood and guns of the 90's where he flourished... but what's the last good Lobo story anyone red? He's just a vehicle for blowing things up. A generic throw-away character that will be a curiosity in the future. He's had his day and now it's done)

Thor 337 (this one falls b/t ASM 238 and OM 3 for me... going to have to say no)

 

1984 - Start of Copper Age according to Geppi and his museum

Albedo 2 (My heart says yes, but my head is fighting me... Usagi (and Stan!) is awesome, but does he have a legacy? I'll keep it for now)

Amazing Spider-man 252 (I don't want to give either of these key status. I think that, perhaps, this will end up being more important due to the more iconic cover and the fact that it occurs in the ASM run)

GI Joe 21 (I think this is a fad and the importance of this book will not last.)

Gobbledygook 1, 2 (no... TMNT 1 is the key here, I think)

Macross 1 (Does this really have any far-reaching effect? Helped popularize manga in the states? Don't think this will stick)

Secret Wars 8 (ugh... see 252... plus, when you think (when *I* think) of iconic Secret Wars cover, it's the cover of 10 that comes to mind... not this.)

Swamp Thing 20, 21 (number 20, maybe, as it has not yet been collected, but I don't think these will really stick either... first-issue-of-creator-X-on-a-book doesn't seem to carry wait for a long time...)

Tales of the Teen Titans 44 (First Nightwing) (I'm biased... but I say no)

TMNT 1 (Yes!)

 

1985

Crisis on Infinite Earths 7, 8 (again, I'm biased b/c I don't really read DC proper... I give these a tentative no)

Swamp Thing 37 (First Constantine) (ok... he's certainly high profile in the DCU despite being such a B list character... he should kill the Phantom Stranger and take over that role. Or become the Spectre. :))

 

1986

Action Comics 583 (ok)

Captain America Annual 8 (Zeck's awesome... but... no...)

Dark Horse Presents 1 (First Concrete) (no one really cares)

Dark Knight Returns 1 (Ok)

Man of Steel 1 (Byrne Superman Reboot) (no...)

Punisher Limited Series 1 (no...)

Watchmen 1 (ok...)

Superman 423 (ok)

Star Wars 107 (no... last issue, but so what? nothing happened... and super-lame cover... and will the Star Wars franchise continue to hold up after those last 3 -fests?)

 

1987

Batman 404-407 Year One (Ok, yes.)

Megaton Explosion (First Youngblood) (This isn't "official" is it? And the YB name is just too soiled now, I think, for anyone to really care too much about this.)

 

1988

Akira 1 (eh... reprint of a manga that only existed b/c of an anime... from Epic? I like this, but no key)

Amazing Spider-man 300 (yeah, I suppose this still works)

Batman: The Killing Joke (Ok, but barely.)

Incredible Hulk 340 (how many times can Wolverine cause something to be a key?)

Miracleman 15 (yeah.)

Wolverine 1 (I'd chop this too... nothing special here... cool story and art, but that does not a key make)

 

1989

Caliber Presents 1 (First Crow) (Could have been bigger, but still has a huge following... I see this making another comeback...)

Cry for Dawn 1 (ok, I guess)

Sandman 1, 8 (Yeah, I think these are important)

Wolverine 10 (Isn't most of this story ret-conned now anyway? key? nah...)

 

1990

Creatures of Id (1st Madman) (Maybe... I'd color it yellow, but I'm only going yes or no, so I'm saying no)

Men in Black 1 (Just b/c there was a movie? This doesn't have legs.)

New Mutants 87 (First Cable) (ok)

Spider-man 1 (ehhhhhhhhhhhh.... I think I have to say no on this too. With a zillion copies and nothing of any importance happening, I don't think this can be a key. No matter how many different colors Spidey's webs are.)

X-men 266 (First Gambit) (This has been on a steady decline for like a decade, hasn't it?)

 

1991

Bone 1 (yes!)

Dark Horse Presents Fifth Anniversary Special (First Sin City) (Ok...)

Evil Ernie 1 (First Evil Ernie and Lady Death) (I don't think so... fad fad fad)

Magnus, Robot Fighter 1 (First Valiant comic released) (Ok...)

New Mutants 98 (First Deadpool) (Looks like this one just might last)

 

1992

Harbinger 1 (discussed earlier... I don't think so...)

Spawn 1 (I thought Youngblood came out first? Or maybe it was supposed to but got delayed... which, actually, would be even more of a reason that YB1 should be here instead. The first Image book published the way that Image publishes books!)

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boomtown

boomtown

Posted
Posted
Actually, as far as "keys" go, I also can't see a lot of these as qualifying...

 

1981

Avengers Annual 10 (First Rogue) (Rogue has never been a big enough character to warrant her first appearance being key)

 

Daredevil 168 (First Elektra) (ok, this works...)

Dazzler 1 (Start of Copper Age? Start of Direct Age?) (Ok...)

Flaming Carrot 1

Love and Rockets 1

Nexus 1

(Have a hard time with all 3 of the above... maybe Love and Rockets...)

X-men 141-142 (Days of Future Past), 143 (X-men title change) (I don't think any of these are important enough to warrant "key" status...)

 

1982

Daredevil 181 (Death of Elektra) (If she was actually dead, maybe... who knows what this whole Skrull thing will do... I say no on this one too tho.)

Marvel Contest of Champions (1st Marvel limited series) (No one actually cares about this, do they?)

Marvel Fanfare 1 (ditto...)

Marvel Graphic Novel 1 (Death of Captain Marvel) (Ok... good.)

PPSS 64 (Cloak and Dagger) (Cloak has been showing up a lot... but, at this point, I'd say this is like saying that the first appearance of Puma or Rocket Racer is a key...)

Primer 2 (First Grendel) (Right on :))

Wolverine LS (Yeah, ok... maybe just #1 as a "key" tho.)

 

1983

Amazing Spider-man 238 (Tentatively ok... very minor key tho...)

Omega Men 3 (First Lobo) (the more I think about this, the more I think Lobo was a good creation in his time and place... he helped usher in all the dark and blood and guns of the 90's where he flourished... but what's the last good Lobo story anyone red? He's just a vehicle for blowing things up. A generic throw-away character that will be a curiosity in the future. He's had his day and now it's done)

Thor 337 (this one falls b/t ASM 238 and OM 3 for me... going to have to say no)

 

1984 - Start of Copper Age according to Geppi and his museum

Albedo 2 (My heart says yes, but my head is fighting me... Usagi (and Stan!) is awesome, but does he have a legacy? I'll keep it for now)

Amazing Spider-man 252 (I don't want to give either of these key status. I think that, perhaps, this will end up being more important due to the more iconic cover and the fact that it occurs in the ASM run)

GI Joe 21 (I think this is a fad and the importance of this book will not last.)

Gobbledygook 1, 2 (no... TMNT 1 is the key here, I think)

Macross 1 (Does this really have any far-reaching effect? Helped popularize manga in the states? Don't think this will stick)

Secret Wars 8 (ugh... see 252... plus, when you think (when *I* think) of iconic Secret Wars cover, it's the cover of 10 that comes to mind... not this.)

Swamp Thing 20, 21 (number 20, maybe, as it has not yet been collected, but I don't think these will really stick either... first-issue-of-creator-X-on-a-book doesn't seem to carry wait for a long time...)

Tales of the Teen Titans 44 (First Nightwing) (I'm biased... but I say no)

TMNT 1 (Yes!)

 

1985

Crisis on Infinite Earths 7, 8 (again, I'm biased b/c I don't really read DC proper... I give these a tentative no)

Swamp Thing 37 (First Constantine) (ok... he's certainly high profile in the DCU despite being such a B list character... he should kill the Phantom Stranger and take over that role. Or become the Spectre. :))

 

1986

Action Comics 583 (ok)

Captain America Annual 8 (Zeck's awesome... but... no...)

Dark Horse Presents 1 (First Concrete) (no one really cares)

Dark Knight Returns 1 (Ok)

Man of Steel 1 (Byrne Superman Reboot) (no...)

Punisher Limited Series 1 (no...)

Watchmen 1 (ok...)

Superman 423 (ok)

Star Wars 107 (no... last issue, but so what? nothing happened... and super-lame cover... and will the Star Wars franchise continue to hold up after those last 3 -fests?)

 

1987

Batman 404-407 Year One (Ok, yes.)

Megaton Explosion (First Youngblood) (This isn't "official" is it? And the YB name is just too soiled now, I think, for anyone to really care too much about this.)

 

1988

Akira 1 (eh... reprint of a manga that only existed b/c of an anime... from Epic? I like this, but no key)

Amazing Spider-man 300 (yeah, I suppose this still works)

Batman: The Killing Joke (Ok, but barely.)

Incredible Hulk 340 (how many times can Wolverine cause something to be a key?)

Miracleman 15 (yeah.)

Wolverine 1 (I'd chop this too... nothing special here... cool story and art, but that does not a key make)

 

1989

Caliber Presents 1 (First Crow) (Could have been bigger, but still has a huge following... I see this making another comeback...)

Cry for Dawn 1 (ok, I guess)

Sandman 1, 8 (Yeah, I think these are important)

Wolverine 10 (Isn't most of this story ret-conned now anyway? key? nah...)

 

1990

Creatures of Id (1st Madman) (Maybe... I'd color it yellow, but I'm only going yes or no, so I'm saying no)

Men in Black 1 (Just b/c there was a movie? This doesn't have legs.)

New Mutants 87 (First Cable) (ok)

Spider-man 1 (ehhhhhhhhhhhh.... I think I have to say no on this too. With a zillion copies and nothing of any importance happening, I don't think this can be a key. No matter how many different colors Spidey's webs are.)

X-men 266 (First Gambit) (This has been on a steady decline for like a decade, hasn't it?)

 

1991

Bone 1 (yes!)

Dark Horse Presents Fifth Anniversary Special (First Sin City) (Ok...)

Evil Ernie 1 (First Evil Ernie and Lady Death) (I don't think so... fad fad fad)

Magnus, Robot Fighter 1 (First Valiant comic released) (Ok...)

New Mutants 98 (First Deadpool) (Looks like this one just might last)

 

1992

Harbinger 1 (discussed earlier... I don't think so...)

Spawn 1 (I thought Youngblood came out first? Or maybe it was supposed to but got delayed... which, actually, would be even more of a reason that YB1 should be here instead. The first Image book published the way that Image publishes books!)

 

Very nice analysis. I don't agree with all of it, but it does cut down the list to a much more reasonable number of books that will stand the test of time.

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joe_collector

joe_collector

Posted
Posted

But remember folks, a "key issue" not only denotes resale value, but also a notable first appearance or a book of some importance.

 

After all, if you take out the low-print, manufactured variant, "limited edition" collectibles, there's not much of serious $$$ in the Copper Age.

 

Personally, I don't see why all issues of Batman Year 1 are so ultra-key, yet the first appearance of Rogue and Gambit are not? It doesn't make a lot of sense.

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sckao

sckao

Posted
Posted

 

I didn't want to just put Batman 404 down since it's a self contained story. (404-407)

 

That's the same reason why I had to put both Action 583 and Superman 423 down. They're really one large story.

 

Ideally, Batman The Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen falls into the same category... The mini-series taken as a whole. (Just like the Wolverine Limited Series)

 

In the case of specific Crisis or Secret Wars issues, I guess those individual issues contained notable events that were greater than the actual mini-series' importance.

 

I guess there has to be a distinction between notable and key. Notable would be something like "Camelot 3000 was the first maxi-series"... although I don't think anyone would say it was a key.

 

I thought it was pretty interesting to read that the Crow was a key (and Dawn) while Evil Ernie and Lady Death were fads. I'd personally lump them all into the same boat. I also don't know how many people read Madman either... Probably less than Concrete which won many Eisners. hm

 

(To be fair, Madman is a movie that is in pre-production supposedly. Mage, (not on the list), is also in pre-production.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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sckao

sckao

Posted
Posted

 

And let's talk about Valiant.

 

Harbinger #1 in 9.8 is extraordinarily expensive. Solar #10 in 9.8 is also a $1000+ book.

 

(These are regular issues and not limited editions.)

 

They're keys based purely on the price I guess. No one cares that Torque died in Harbinger #6 or Rai actually died in Rai #7.

 

So should keys based purely on price/current value be on the list?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Jeffreykli

Jeffreykli

Posted
Posted

If you're going to put storylines on the "key" list, then why wouldn't you put the "death" arcs?

 

Batman 426-429

Superman 75

 

I forget the actual timing, but you get my point. Both were larger than just comic books (especially with the Robin call in lines). To me, the entire Crisis series belongs more on the list than Superman 423/Action 583.

 

I think overall what we're struggling with is that these issues don't seem as "key" as others. Part of that is supply; there are far more copies of these books, especially in high grade, than any other age.

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valiantman

valiantman

Posted
Posted

And let's talk about Valiant.

 

Harbinger #1 in 9.8 is extraordinarily expensive. Solar #10 in 9.8 is also a $1000+ book.

 

(These are regular issues and not limited editions.)

 

They're keys based purely on the price I guess. No one cares that Torque died in Harbinger #6 or Rai actually died in Rai #7.

 

So should keys based purely on price/current value be on the list?

 

Harbinger #1 is the first original Valiant comic series issue.

 

Rai (first original Valiant character) appeared in Magnus as a "flipbook" for a mini-series,

but Harbinger #1 is the first 100% Valiant original book.

 

Solar #10 is the first appearance of Eternal Warrior, the final chapter of Solar's origin,

the issue where the universe is destroyed, and the first "solid black cover" (which is copied later by others).

 

Both are regular issues, originally sold for cover price and on the shelf with all the other regular issues.

As far as CGC 9.8 goes, these two books have sold for four figures, and are not variants/premiums/etc.

 

Magnus #1 is the first Valiant comic, but it is a continuation of the Gold Key line,

including the Gold Key stories as part of the Valiant continuity.

 

All three are Valiant keys, whether they are Copper Age keys is a separate question,

but lists of keys have traditionally included the dominant books in the market...

which Harbinger #1 and Solar #10 are... without much competition.

CGC 9.8 Bone #1 is the only other regular issue printed in the past 20 years to reach $2,500.

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MatMarvelV1

MatMarvelV1

Posted
Posted

And let's talk about Valiant.

 

Harbinger #1 in 9.8 is extraordinarily expensive. Solar #10 in 9.8 is also a $1000+ book.

 

(These are regular issues and not limited editions.)

 

They're keys based purely on the price I guess. No one cares that Torque died in Harbinger #6 or Rai actually died in Rai #7.

 

So should keys based purely on price/current value be on the list?

 

NO Keys are surely books that signify a change in direction by the introduction of a series of events or a significant new character, anything else is just regular storytelling in an expansion of the current plotline. Added to this key issues should stand out by meaning something to the reader and becoming forever linked in the reader's psyche as integral to the books plot, ... I think ??!!

 

 

 

 

 

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joe_collector

joe_collector

Posted
Posted
So should keys based purely on price/current value be on the list?

 

I'd say yes, assuming the value is not limited to ultra high CGC grades, or is dependent only on scarcity (like some variants/limited editions/reprints), like that Blue/Gold Miracleman nonsense.

 

If it lists high in OS and sells good in mid-grade (like early Turtles or Cerebus) then it's certainly a key book.

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sckao

sckao

Posted
Posted

Copper Age Keys Poll

 

Okay. Check the box(es) of the comics YOU DON'T THINK BELONG ON THIS LIST. I.E. The Comic books THAT ARE NOT COPPER AGE KEYS.

 

You may check as many boxes as you want.

 

Remember, you are voting for the ONES THAT DO NOT BELONG ON THE LIST OF COPPER AGE KEYS.

 

 

 

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juggernaut

juggernaut

Posted
Posted

I surprised that these books didn't make the list. I was going to mention them but felt they might not be keys.

 

Arkham Asylum (Batman) - hardcover

Tick #1 or Tick #1 Special Edition

G.I. Joe #1

Transformers #1

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