When should GPA prices really apply in a comic sale?

[VintageComics]

Hey if it is I'm sorry...I didn't read all the posts...just skimmed through.

 

[Timmay]

Again, with Heritage, I think it's fair to consider the BP in pricing, BUT...keep in mind, the contention that the buyer knows that a BP exists, and therefore bids LESS to accommodate that BP still exists.

 

If you look at the different bidding methods with Heritage it's pretty hard to miss the BP. Perhaps through eBay and phone bidders it doesn't show but everywhere else they show the total bid.

 

GPA reports the total cost (including BP); what was actually bid is irrelevant.

[Bosco685]

 

Well for one, why should GPA be limited only to the buyer.

What I mean is if you are all asking for the seller of a raw book not to include GPA data because the book is raw, does that not tie his hands if he has a book that does not fall into Overstreet grades or definitions?

 

Example 1:

 

I have a book that lists for $200 in Overstreet. Let's say an X-men #101 in 9.2.

 

Now let's say I'm a nice guy and list it for $130 because I want to discount it for the boards...but I personally grade the book a 9.6/9.8. It's virtually flawless....why should I limit myself as a seller and leave money on the table when the buyer (who buys according to GPA) swoops in and buys the book for $130 (because I'm not supposed to quote GPA) and then grades it and flips it for $750 3 weeks later?

 

Is it fair to tie the hands of the seller?

 

Example 2:

 

Overstreet is out to lunch on many books...and the grade does not have to even be taken into account. Take a rare book that is highly sought after for it's cover...Suspense #3, Captain America Comics #74, Action #7, Marvel Mystery #9...whatever...these books will fetch 2/3/4 or 10 times guide. How do you know how to price it?

 

Answer. Using ALL available references including GPA you can find a reasonable price for your book...and believe me grade often does not matter....just finding a copy is all that matters....want to know how I come to this conclusion? Often when you look up pricing for a rare book, prices are all over the place REGARDLESS of grade...price is determined simply by who was there to bid on it at the time.

 

Example 3:

 

Some dealers just can't be bothered to slab their books for whatever reason (they hate CGC, they don't have the time, they don't want to invest the $$...whatever...they have their reasons)....so they put a book up for sale and price it over guide at basically what is a GPA price. Visit conventions people...these dealers know what these books are selling for whether they are slabbed or not...and they sell those books for those prices....slabbed or not.

 

My point is that there are many variables in deciding what is fair price for a book and nobody said that GPA is the be all and end all...but it is a valuable tool for providing a lot of info including trends, availability of books in the marketplace, current pricing, frequency of sale etc etc etc.

 

Why would I as a seller or a buyer not want to use it in any transaction I am going to make?

 

R.

 

I've liked everything posted by you, so please, please, please don't get this the wrong way.

 

How could you charge GPA for raw books when the buyer is the one that takes the risk if that book goes into CGC what it will come out as? Remember a book is more than just a cover, so what if you missed that typical 70's error where two pages were sealed together, or a page is folded over, or something else that knocks the complete book?

 

Then you have to put a policy in-place that if that book does not come back what you stated from CGC, you'll credit back the difference between grades. You want to get into that mess, as I don't.

 

Just trying to understand the logic because a raw book is just that, and a slabbed book that had to go through the entire evaluation and encapsulation process is totally different. How do you compare the two?

[Dale Roberts]

Again, with Heritage, I think it's fair to consider the BP in pricing, BUT...keep in mind, the contention that the buyer knows that a BP exists, and therefore bids LESS to accommodate that BP still exists.

 

If you look at the different bidding methods with Heritage it's pretty hard to miss the BP. Perhaps through eBay and phone bidders it doesn't show but everywhere else they show the total bid.

 

GPA reports the total cost (including BP); what was actually bid is irrelevant.

 

GPA does not report shipping cost, which it should because almost all of its information is from websites where the shipping can easily be figured. Obviously is little matter on a 1000.00 book, but on a 50.00 book, if someone is paying 10.00 for shipping, then that is part of the cost of the book.

 

GPA, just like Overstreet is a guide. Some cases it is very indicative of the market, some cases it is not. Obviously, you can't strictly adhere to it or the prices would never change. Sales on this board or at a convention are just as valid a price point, as a sale on ebay, even though neither are generally recorded.

[VintageComics]

 

Well for one, why should GPA be limited only to the buyer.

What I mean is if you are all asking for the seller of a raw book not to include GPA data because the book is raw, does that not tie his hands if he has a book that does not fall into Overstreet grades or definitions?

 

Example 1:

 

I have a book that lists for $200 in Overstreet. Let's say an X-men #101 in 9.2.

 

Now let's say I'm a nice guy and list it for $130 because I want to discount it for the boards...but I personally grade the book a 9.6/9.8. It's virtually flawless....why should I limit myself as a seller and leave money on the table when the buyer (who buys according to GPA) swoops in and buys the book for $130 (because I'm not supposed to quote GPA) and then grades it and flips it for $750 3 weeks later?

 

Is it fair to tie the hands of the seller?

 

Example 2:

 

Overstreet is out to lunch on many books...and the grade does not have to even be taken into account. Take a rare book that is highly sought after for it's cover...Suspense #3, Captain America Comics #74, Action #7, Marvel Mystery #9...whatever...these books will fetch 2/3/4 or 10 times guide. How do you know how to price it?

 

Answer. Using ALL available references including GPA you can find a reasonable price for your book...and believe me grade often does not matter....just finding a copy is all that matters....want to know how I come to this conclusion? Often when you look up pricing for a rare book, prices are all over the place REGARDLESS of grade...price is determined simply by who was there to bid on it at the time.

 

Example 3:

 

Some dealers just can't be bothered to slab their books for whatever reason (they hate CGC, they don't have the time, they don't want to invest the $$...whatever...they have their reasons)....so they put a book up for sale and price it over guide at basically what is a GPA price. Visit conventions people...these dealers know what these books are selling for whether they are slabbed or not...and they sell those books for those prices....slabbed or not.

 

My point is that there are many variables in deciding what is fair price for a book and nobody said that GPA is the be all and end all...but it is a valuable tool for providing a lot of info including trends, availability of books in the marketplace, current pricing, frequency of sale etc etc etc.

 

Why would I as a seller or a buyer not want to use it in any transaction I am going to make?

 

R.

 

I've liked everything posted by you, so please, please, please don't get this the wrong way.

 

How could you charge GPA for raw books when the buyer is the one that takes the risk if that book goes into CGC what it will come out as? Remember a book is more than just a cover, so what if you missed that typical 70's error where two pages were sealed together, or a page is folded over, or something else that knocks the complete book?

 

Then you have to put a policy in-place that if that book does not come back what you stated from CGC, you'll credit back the difference between grades. You want to get into that mess, as I don't.

 

Just trying to understand the logic because a raw book is just that, and a slabbed book that had to go through the entire evaluation and encapsulation process is totally different. How do you compare the two?

 

Bosco there are many variables here.

 

1) the book is not sold until the buyer pulls the trigger. The buyer will likely pull the trigger AFTER he is comfortable with the transaction, not before. There are many people that know how to grade and sell raw books accurately graded give or take a 0.2 or a little hiccup here or there.

2) I used to guarantee my grades when I sold raw books. Now that CGC (just a personal observation) seems to have changed their grading standards slightly I send most "multiple of guide" books to CGC for grading.

3) Your scenario only applies to ultra high grade books where the "multiples" of guide come into effect...say...50 times guide for a highest graded bronze key. My post covers many other types of scenarios...for example if you post the correct (ie. RARE) book in the selling forum I can guarantee you will get multiples of guide for it raw....and the price you fetch will be somewhere in the ball park of GPA because that is the only real sales data available to the average "Joe".

4) the seller also takes a risk. Haven't you ever sold a book as a 9.4 only to find out later it came back a 9.6 (or some similar scenario)? It happens all the time.

 

Just some food for thought...and no offense taken...I love a solid debate almost as much as Jack Daniels, women and comics...in no particular order.

 

 

[Mac Man]

 

I've liked everything posted by you, so please, please, please don't get this the wrong way.

 

How could you charge GPA for raw books when the buyer is the one that takes the risk if that book goes into CGC what it will come out as? Remember a book is more than just a cover, so what if you missed that typical 70's error where two pages were sealed together, or a page is folded over, or something else that knocks the complete book?

 

Then you have to put a policy in-place that if that book does not come back what you stated from CGC, you'll credit back the difference between grades. You want to get into that mess, as I don't.

 

Just trying to understand the logic because a raw book is just that, and a slabbed book that had to go through the entire evaluation and encapsulation process is totally different. How do you compare the two?

 

Well... thoughts on buying GPA/Raw books.

 

1. There are some buyers who I will buy from sight unseen. Why? Because they've sold me book advertised as FN/FN+ and they're all in the VF to VF+ range. So, if they're charging me GPA, I'm still getting the book for a deal.

 

2. It's a starting point. There are few members here who aren't willing to take a slight discount on a GPA-priced comic especially if you subtract out slabbing costs.

 

3. Re: return policies, I know a handful of members here who have stated policies they'll accept returns you have a disagreement over the grade.

 

If Roy wants to use GPA to inform his pricing, and I think it's too high, then I'll cite my pricing sources for why he needs to give me a fat discount. Somewhere in between, deals get made, and we're all happy

[Timmay]

 

Just trying to understand the logic because a raw book is just that, and a slabbed book that had to go through the entire evaluation and encapsulation process is totally different. How do you compare the two?

 

If you buy from someone who knows how to grade, and you know how to grade (i.e. get the book and either agree or disagree with the grade), then the only thing missing is the book in a CGC holder with the same grade (or better). This goes for online only; at a con, you can see the book in person and find imperfections lost over the internet via a scan.

 

NOT a guarantee, but more times than not the book will come back as advertised if sent into CGC.

 

[VintageComics]

Mac, that is a good point. Whatever previous sales are quoted, they are simply a *starting* or *reference* point...not the end of the transaction...just the start.

 

If someone feels that something is out of whack they can very easily pm or communicate in private why they feel the seller is out of line.

 

If something is overpriced or overgraded the seller will likely not sell the book.

 

(thumbs u

 

 

[Dale Roberts]

 

Well for one, why should GPA be limited only to the buyer.

What I mean is if you are all asking for the seller of a raw book not to include GPA data because the book is raw, does that not tie his hands if he has a book that does not fall into Overstreet grades or definitions?

 

Example 1:

 

I have a book that lists for $200 in Overstreet. Let's say an X-men #101 in 9.2.

 

Now let's say I'm a nice guy and list it for $130 because I want to discount it for the boards...but I personally grade the book a 9.6/9.8. It's virtually flawless....why should I limit myself as a seller and leave money on the table when the buyer (who buys according to GPA) swoops in and buys the book for $130 (because I'm not supposed to quote GPA) and then grades it and flips it for $750 3 weeks later?

 

Is it fair to tie the hands of the seller?

 

Example 2:

 

Overstreet is out to lunch on many books...and the grade does not have to even be taken into account. Take a rare book that is highly sought after for it's cover...Suspense #3, Captain America Comics #74, Action #7, Marvel Mystery #9...whatever...these books will fetch 2/3/4 or 10 times guide. How do you know how to price it?

 

Answer. Using ALL available references including GPA you can find a reasonable price for your book...and believe me grade often does not matter....just finding a copy is all that matters....want to know how I come to this conclusion? Often when you look up pricing for a rare book, prices are all over the place REGARDLESS of grade...price is determined simply by who was there to bid on it at the time.

 

Example 3:

 

Some dealers just can't be bothered to slab their books for whatever reason (they hate CGC, they don't have the time, they don't want to invest the $$...whatever...they have their reasons)....so they put a book up for sale and price it over guide at basically what is a GPA price. Visit conventions people...these dealers know what these books are selling for whether they are slabbed or not...and they sell those books for those prices....slabbed or not.

 

My point is that there are many variables in deciding what is fair price for a book and nobody said that GPA is the be all and end all...but it is a valuable tool for providing a lot of info including trends, availability of books in the marketplace, current pricing, frequency of sale etc etc etc.

 

Why would I as a seller or a buyer not want to use it in any transaction I am going to make?

 

R.

 

I've liked everything posted by you, so please, please, please don't get this the wrong way.

 

How could you charge GPA for raw books when the buyer is the one that takes the risk if that book goes into CGC what it will come out as? Remember a book is more than just a cover, so what if you missed that typical 70's error where two pages were sealed together, or a page is folded over, or something else that knocks the complete book?

 

Then you have to put a policy in-place that if that book does not come back what you stated from CGC, you'll credit back the difference between grades. You want to get into that mess, as I don't.

 

Just trying to understand the logic because a raw book is just that, and a slabbed book that had to go through the entire evaluation and encapsulation process is totally different. How do you compare the two?

 

A knowledgable skilled dealer or collector can accurately determine if a book is better than a 9.2 by looking at the book closely. Dealers who do price raw books at GPA are not pricing books over guide....because Overstreet guide only goes up to 9.2. There is no price for a 9.4, 9.6 or 9.8.

 

There are many reasons why such a book might be sold raw as opposed to slabbed. The most common and simplest reason is that the dealer purchases the book on the way to, or at the convention. Lets stay with the book that was mentioned. I purchased an X-Men #101 2 years ago at San Diego. Very, very nice book. It was borderline 9.4/9.6. Matt Nelson was shopping at my booth and I showed him the book to get his opinion. He offered me $75.00 under 9.6 price on the book at the time. Apparently he was certain it would be a 9.6 and potentially a 9.8. Why should I take the time(2 months) and the expense($50+ with shipping) to get the book graded when I can get my price without the time and expense?

 

Another case, last year at NYCC, I bought a ton of books from a dealer. I think I spent about 27K total. I sold many books from that group at the convention, including books to Foolkiller, Tom Brulato, and several others board guys. Brian and I spent quite a bit of time looking at DCs together, debating grades and prices. I sold him the books at a little under GPA on the book. I think he did very well, and I did as well.

 

This is nothing new. 10 - 12 years ago at the National in NY, I saw Harley sell raw Thor issues in the 170s & 180s for 18 x overstreet guide. The books were outstanding, but I had never seen anything like it at the time. I couldn't believe people were actually paying the prices, but they were and I am sure it was a regular occurence, not just with Harley, but with many dealers with primo stuff.

[Mac Man]

Mac, that is a good point. Whatever previous sales are quoted, they are simply a *starting* or *reference* point...not the end of the transaction...just the start.

 

If someone feels that something is out of whack they can very easily pm or communicate in private why they feel the seller is out of line.

 

If something is overpriced or overgraded the seller will likely not sell the book.

 

(thumbs u

 

 

EXACTLY!

[VintageComics]

Dale thanks for that terrific insight!

 

 

I've mentioned this before but my best friend is a super strict grader and he sold his personal comic collection about 15 years ago to raise cash so that he could open his new comic store.

 

Dealers were paying him 4-6 times guide 15 years ago for NON key books! He literally had 4 perfect-mint (as he calls them) copies of every Neal Adams book every printed. Imagine. Dealers literally fighting over this guy's non key books and paying multiples of guide...years before CGC.

 

Gotta love stories like that.

 

R.

[thehumantorch]

Hmmm. Interesting thread. GPA is a handy tool that I like to consult before I buy but ultimately the value of the book is what you and the other party agree to. If you really want a book and that book is as scarce as hen's teeth than GPA or any other price guide may not apply.

 

I have noticed a fair number of sellers selling high grade SA and BA books at well above GPA. If they can get it good for them but I can't see paying above GPA prices for a relatively common high grade book that I know I will see again.

 

I also don't like to pay GPA for raw high grade books especially SA and BA books. The GPA price reflects the cost of sending the book to CGC and reflects a premium for a guaranteed unrestored book at a guaranteed grade. How many high grade raw books sold on this board are actually restored? Likely a few.

[Bosco685]

I definitely get it that there are books far above the Overstreet top-level grade in their pricing, and also there are sellers that are known to tightly grade, or undergrade, leading to a buying frenzy at every one of their sales. Those type sellers deserve every dollar they receive, as they earned it.

 

But that is not the norm in our little hobby, and if some solid sellers start quoting GPA on raw books, those that are not will start down that path as well. Then we run into the issue of how to right-side the tipping ship, because nobody knows what reference to trust and where it applies.

 

I know, the "Disaster of Biblical proportions" speech from Ghost Busters: Wraith of God-type stuff...40 years of darkness...human sacrifice...cats and dogs living together..."

 

If anything, is it common that since Overstreet goes as high as 9.2 that any book above that has a common multiple formula which accounts for books that are of a higher grade? This rather than use GPA for what it is not - a reference for raw books?

[Dale Roberts]

need an example? take a look at the Thrilling #44

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2858364&nt=4&fpart=3

[Cimm]

It all comes down to a couple of things, for both parties...

 

Seller -

 

1. Confidence... in your own grading, in the relative scarcity of the book or grade, in the saleability of the book at your asking price...

 

2. Reputation... every book a seller sells has the power to make or break his reputation, especially on these boards.

 

Buyer -

 

1. Trust... in the seller, in their grades, in the value of the book...

 

2. Desire... How much do you really want that book, and is THIS COPY the one to satisfy that want?