Attrition rate for re-slabs

[awe4one]

They have clearly stated all along that they grade the books blind. That means that even if they know it's a book that they have graded before they are NOT allowed to go look it up. I don't see how this in any way negatively affects their integrity.

 

May not affect their integrity directly, if they actually don't know the prior grade beforehand, but it definitely puts into question their procedures. In light of this, questioning their integrity, right or wrong, isn't unrealistic and shouldn't be unexpected. When this question has come up on the Forum before, you could at least give them the benefit of a doubt that these regrades were few. Now seeing that the resubmittal of MHs is much more substantial, it's making CGC look foolish. If the CGC grading process can be circumvented with such frequency, on comics the company has graded and documented in the past, how can't questions on their integrity not come up?

 

Again their integrity may be rock solid but the way they're apparently being manipulated because of a procedural process is laughable. And disheartening....

 

Jim

[fantastic_four]

In fact, that's EXACTLY what I would expect from the graders, particularly Haspel and Borock, who according to legend are able to spot a MH book from a mile away (excuse the pun). I wouldn't necessarily expect them to remember if they had graded that specific book or what grade they gave, but upon seeing a book that looks like a MH book (or SF, WM, PC, etc.), you'd think they would pull up the database to see whether that issue from the pedigree had been graded already. In fact, I believe they have scans of everything, so they'd be able to pull up the scan to see if the comics match exactly.

 

They only save images for books if the client pays for the imaging service they offer. I think it's like 3 bucks? I forget.

 

This kind of double-checking would only work for pedigrees where only a single copy of an issue exists in the collection, which is a small percentage of books. I can't think of a practical way to consistently detect cleaning/pressing upgrades for all books submitted even if they did keep images for every comic. Just think of all the images they'd have to compare against for something like a Hulk 181 that used to be 9.0 and has been cleaned and pressed up to a 9.4/9.6...it'd be impossible to do hundreds of visual comparisons on every book.

[fantastic_four]

I believe pressing is done without disassembling (sp) books. Also they are most likely pressed dry/slightly humidified , so there is no change in paper structure. I believe pressing is undetectable, no matter what kind of equipment you have.

 

Pressing is currently undetectable for bends where paper fibre isn't seriously fractured. I have to wonder whether stereoscopic or microscopic evaluation of the fibres couldn't yield a way to detect even minor pressing. There's another reason to buy a stereoscope that supports up to 80x or 100x magnification...

 

I suspect the majority of these Mile Highs on Heritage have had their covers removed to do the work. Take that Boy #17 as an example by looking at the creases on the front cover on the spine diagonally below the "B" in the "Boy" title on the CGC 4.0 copy, and compare those creases to the same area on the CGC 7.5 scan. Is it really possible to completely press that type of a crease out without removing the cover as has been done in this example? I'm not saying it isn't possible, but it seems highly, highly unlikely. For the press's pressure to reach that close to the spine, you'd have to open the book up so wide that it would risk ripping the cover at the staples. Some of those removed creases crossed the spine to the back cover; the absence of those creases on the CGC 7.5 copy suggests cover removal to me.

[garthgantu]

 

They only save images for books if the client pays for the imaging service they offer. I think it's like 3 bucks? I forget.

Well, CGC could charge 25 cents and still make $ on that service. I can see why many/most people wouldn't buy it for $3 - heck, there are people who would gladly pay $3 to "destroy the evidence" in case of future resubbing of the book (yes, I realize that CGC doesn't use the scans as reference when grading, but there are a lot of paranoid people out there, ya know?)

 

This kind of double-checking would only work for pedigrees where only a single copy of an issue exists in the collection, which is a small percentage of books.

Well, using this Boy # 17 as an example, it would be pretty easy to compare the 'before and after' images and determine that the 'after' was in fact a cleaned+pressed version of the 'before' - between the 'D' at top, and specific creases etc., it's a no-brainer. I realize that in this case we're talking about a pedigreed book, but this could be applied to many other, non-pedigree books and still be effective.

 

I can't think of a practical way to consistently detect cleaning/pressing upgrades for all books submitted even if they did keep images for every comic. Just think of all the images they'd have to compare against for something like a Hulk 181 that used to be 9.0 and has been cleaned and pressed up to a 9.4/9.6...it'd be impossible to do hundreds of visual comparisons on every book.

Agree - this is a toughy. But traffic cops don't catch every speeder and red light runner, so why bother at all? Because the fear of getting caught keeps 98% of the populace from committing the infraction in the first place. If CGC started keeping visual records of every comic (which I assure you they could do for a fraction of the $3 per book they're charging today), they'd soon be able to identify such cleaning and pressing in a fair number of cases - which would likely deter others from trying this in the first place.

 

As it is, CGC looks ridiculous when

- it's made clear that cleaning and pressing can be done without CGC being able to catch it

- a modest cleaning and pressing will elevate a VG 4.0 book to VF- 7.5 status, at least in CGC's eyes.

[chrisco37]

Yeah, this is kind of disturbing. Besides the obvious 4.0 to 7.5, some others that are real shockers are:

 

Plastic Man #16 and 17.

Junior Miss #27

Joker #19

 

All graded at 8.5. After re-sub, 9.6!!!!

 

The Junior Miss even came back at higher PQ!!!

 

Did these books recieve special treatment b/c they are MH's??? Something is definately unsettling as all hell about this.....

 

Chris

 

 

[fantastic_four]

But traffic cops don't catch every speeder and red light runner, so why bother at all? Because the fear of getting caught keeps 98% of the populace from committing the infraction in the first place.

 

But if you get caught speeding, you pay a fine and eventually lose your license, which makes you not want to keep speeding. Can CGC really impose any kind of penalty on people who submit cleaned/pressed comics? It's not a crime...

[Timely]

The Junior Miss even came back at higher PQ!!!

 

I've seen the Page Quality go up, come down and stay the same on resubs. I'm not sure how/who assigns the page quality, but it's sporatic at best.

 

Timely

[murph0]

I've had page quality change on 3 of 6 resubmissions. Mostly ones that went from C-OW (the horror!!) to OW. 2 of the 3, the grade remained the same.

 

Brian

[tth2]

Garth, I agree with you 100%!

[tth2]

Yeah, this is kind of disturbing. Besides the obvious 4.0 to 7.5, some others that are real shockers are:

 

Plastic Man #16 and 17.

Junior Miss #27

Joker #19

 

All graded at 8.5. After re-sub, 9.6!!!!

 

My point exactly, I find this to be extremely disturbing. Suddenly Marnin's rantings start to make sense, which is perhaps even more disturbing!

[tb]

In addition to the Church books Arty listed, I've noticed the following pedigree copies change grade:

 

Adventure 82 8.5 8.5 (same grade, but Church pedigree retracted on resub)

All Star 10 7.5 8.5

Batman 23 8.5 9.0

Batman 29 8.5 9.0

Captain America 12 9.0 9.4

Captain America 39 8.5 9.0

Captain America 50 9.0 9.4

Cyclone 1 9.2 9.6

Comic Cavalcade 1 7.0 8.0

Comic Cavalcade 20 9.2 9.0

Four Color I (#2) 9.2 9.4

Green Hornet 1 8.5 9.2

Marvel Mystery 3 8.5 9.0

Marvel Mystery 7 8.5 9.2

Marvel Mystery 9 5.0(SP) 5.5 ("88" in pencil erased)

Marvel Mystery 51 9.0 7.5 (damaged between submissions)

Marvel Mystery 83 8.0 8.5

Sensation 48 9.2 9.4

 

 

[sborock]

I posted this the last time this came up, I think that was last year, so here it is one more time:

 

CGC does not grade based on who the submitter is, and never has. We have stated this time and time again. We set very high standards for ourselves, much higher than we would expect others to set for themselves. This is the only way we can stay a trusted part of the collecting community. If certain comic books receive a certain grade one day and then a much higher grade months later, it means that in most cases, the book is in better condition the second time we graded it. How can this be? There is an easy answer, which most people who have been in our hobby awhile already know: comic books get pressed.

Before CGC, collectors who purchased a comic book with a slight or moderate spine roll would put the comic book between two dictionaries with a cinder block on top for a few months to remove part or all of the spine roll. If a collector got in a comic book with a light crease that did not break color, he would try and take it out by using light pressure to “press” it out. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it did not. I personally know many dealers and collectors who for many years have been pressing comic books themselves, or sending them to someone else to be pressed on a regular basis.

Since our inception, CGC has never considered “pressing” to be a “bad thing” unless the comic book was taken apart to press it. Comic books should not be taken apart. Unlike restoration, when a comic book cover is pressed CORRECTLY and SAFELY, it will enhance the look of the comic book and most experts can’t even tell it has been pressed if they did not see the comic book before it was pressed.

When CGC receives a re-submitted comic book , we very rarely know it is a re-submission. If in fact we do know it is a re-submission (because it is a high profile comic book or pedigree), we usually have no clue what we graded it the first time around. We grade so many comic books on a daily basis that it is impossible to remember grades from last week, let alone a few months ago.

 

 

 

 

[sfilosa]

Since our inception, CGC has never considered “pressing” to be a “bad thing” unless the comic book was taken apart to press it. Comic books should not be taken apart.

 

 

Just for my own benefit, "Why shouldn't comic books be taken apart"?

 

I can see that if a book is taken apart, that the staple holes could become a little wider, but shouldn't that be factored into the grade.

 

I have never understood the logic behing this issue since nothing has been added (or subtracted) from the book (which seems to be the line drawn to determine restoration).

 

 

[awe4one]

I posted this the last time this came up, I think that was last year, so here it is one more time......

 

Steve, thanks for the refresher....

 

But it still begs the question that your process is being manipulated by these resubmitters. It's not good for CGC when we see pedigree comics being resubmitted for higher grades at the frequency that has been revealed recently. This brings into question the grading process itself and all the associated doubts that result.

 

Jim

[davidking623]

I Trust CGC most wholeheartedly that is why I pay the money for them.CGC You Rock!!!!

 

Davidking623

[fantastic_four]

It's not good for CGC when we see pedigree comics being resubmitted for higher grades at the frequency that has been revealed recently. This brings into question the grading process itself and all the associated doubts that result.

 

Forensic evaluation, whether it be CGC looking at a comic book or a police investigator examining a crime scene, is not a perfect science and innovates slowly over time. So you're right, this does bring the grading process into question. And the question is--are there better forensic techniques available for detecting pressing and/or light cleaning? It's an area to research, unless someone already has some good suggestions.

[Timely]

Since our inception, CGC has never considered “pressing” to be a “bad thing” unless the comic book was taken apart to press it. Comic books should not be taken apart.

 

 

Just for my own benefit, "Why shouldn't comic books be taken apart"?

 

I can see that if a book is taken apart, that the staple holes could become a little wider, but shouldn't that be factored into the grade.

 

I have never understood the logic behing this issue since nothing has been added (or subtracted) from the book (which seems to be the line drawn to determine restoration).

 

Just the act of taking apart a comics and puting back together is restoration. If the staples are taken out and the book is "apart" it has to be "put back together". The act of putting something back to it's original form is restoration.

 

Timely

[sfilosa]

Just the act of taking apart a comics and puting back together is restoration. If the staples are taken out and the book is "apart" it has to be "put back together". The act of putting something back to it's original form is restoration.

 

Timely

 

 

Doesn't hold any logic with me (sorry). That's like saying opening the book cover (i.e. taking the cover apart from the interior pages) and then "putting" it back is restoration.

 

 

 

 

 

[Timely]

Sorry, but that IS the intent of a comic, to be opened.

 

Timely

[Rip]