Attrition rate for re-slabs

[garthgantu]

One thing that Steve's response didn't address was the cleaning... I understand that pressing is essentially undetectable in most cases, but that Boy # 17 was clearly cleaned... I thought that cleaning was more easily detected and definitely considered resto when it was detectable?

[sfilosa]

Sorry, but that IS the intent of a comic, to be opened.

 

Timely

 

 

But was the INTENT of the comic to have Arrival Dates, Printer Creases, Mis-cuts, Marvel Chipping? NO, but it happened. Yet, there is very little, to no impact on the grade (value) of the comic book for these defects. Yet, a book that has been taken apart and put back together (with absolute nothing added or subtracted) would in theory be worth significantly less (thou I actually never seen a PLOD lable with that description).

 

 

I'm not going to change your mind and your not going to change mine. That's understandable.

 

 

[drbanner]

One thing that Steve's response didn't address was the cleaning... I understand that pressing is essentially undetectable in most cases, but that Boy # 17 was clearly cleaned... I thought that cleaning was more easily detected and definitely considered resto when it was detectable?

 

As with most of this thread, this has been discussed before and I believe that when detected, "physical" cleaning (like wonderbread, using eraser shavings, etc.,.) did not result in a PLOD, whereas chemical/aqueous cleaning did. If someone takes a pencil and erases "$1.50" written on the back cover of a book, is that restoration? I certainly don't think so, but others may feel differently...

[burntboy]

very interesting re-start of an old thread. MOST enlightening.......

 

i'm with garth on the cleaning aspect. is there a more famous and easier to recognize pedigree that the Edgar Church collection?? if the answer is no, and the church collection didn't have a number of duplicates, we're talking about one of a kind books here.

 

as such, wouldn't/couldn't/shouldn't second submissions of one-of-a-kind famous books be checked on a database to see what the old vs new grading was just to see the degree of change and set off an alarm, possibly? i've got no beef on pressing, but if the book jumps from a 4.0 to a 7.5, it should be simple to realize that pressing cannot be the answer!!! perhaps then a somewhat more detailed investigation would be in order. i realize this would take time and time-is-money but if it was my business, i'd hate seeing some of these resubmission results........and it could be limited to Pedigrees

 

 

 

 

[sfilosa]

. If someone takes a pencil and erases "$1.50" written on the back cover of a book, is that restoration? I certainly don't think so, but others may feel differently...

 

Not sure why that wouldn't be restoration? That has to remove some of the gloss (subtracting something from the book). And apparently, any INTENT to alter the books appearance to make the book more attractive is considered restoration.

 

Just playing devils advocate.

 

 

[drbanner]

. If someone takes a pencil and erases "$1.50" written on the back cover of a book, is that restoration? I certainly don't think so, but others may feel differently...

 

Not sure why that wouldn't be restoration? That has to remove some of the gloss (subtracting something from the book). And apparently, any INTENT to alter the books appearance to make the book more attractive is considered restoration.

 

Just playing devils advocate.

 

Maybe a pencil eraser is a bad example (although it's common to see back cover prices erased), but it looks to me like the cleaning on that Boy 17 (which was the book Garth was talking about) could have been of the wonderbread variety...the newer scan obviously has the brightness turned way up.

 

What if the $1.50 gets "erased" via a tape pull on the back cover? That's certainly not restoration, and there's not much difference between the loss of a paper layer from a tape pull and some surface scuffing of the cover gloss from wonderbread/pencil eraser - in both cases the book will be downgraded due to the damage, yes?

[Timely]

 

But was the INTENT of the comic to have Arrival Dates, Printer Creases, Mis-cuts, Marvel Chipping? NO, but it happened. Yet, there is very little, to no impact on the grade (value) of the comic book for these defects.

 

Each time you make a statement I shoot it down with logic and you move on to another subject, I'd be more than happy to shoot down another unlogical thought of yours. So here goes...

 

 

You write: "Yet, there is very little, to no impact on the grade (value) of the comic book for these defects."

 

Untrue! And Obviously so! A book WITH those defects have tremendous impact on its grade and value. When was the last time you saw a CGC 10.0 with ANY of those defects? NEVER! Those books never get higher than a 9.6, and books with creases and Marvel chipping get far lower grades than that! And we all know there's a world of difference in price between a 10.0 and a 9.6 and under.

 

I can appreciate the intent of your arguements but the logic and fact behind your statements have not been accurate on this subject.

 

Timely

[garthgantu]

But traffic cops don't catch every speeder and red light runner, so why bother at all? Because the fear of getting caught keeps 98% of the populace from committing the infraction in the first place.

 

But if you get caught speeding, you pay a fine and eventually lose your license, which makes you not want to keep speeding. Can CGC really impose any kind of penalty on people who submit cleaned/pressed comics? It's not a crime...

 

Right... so you don't arrest cleaners/pressers, you just 'out' them and let the community mete out the 'punishment' (lost sales, bad rep, mocking on these boards, etc.)

[sfilosa]

Untrue! And Obviously so! A book WITH those defects have tremendous impact on its grade and value. When was the last time you saw a CGC 10.0 with ANY of those defects? NEVER! Those books never get higher than a 9.6, and books with creases and Marvel chipping get far lower grades than that! And we all know there's a world of difference in price between a 10.0 and a 9.6 and under.

 

I can appreciate the intent of your arguements but the logic and fact behind your statements have not been accurate on this subject.

 

There are no MILE HIGH books with arrival dates / coding in 9.8 or higher?

 

I've received a 9.6 grade on a Gaines File Copy that had a huge printer crease right on the front cover, but also had a very light non-color breaking corner crease. Without the printer crease, I still would not have expected the book to get a higher grade. So, the printer crease could not have had any affect on the grade.

 

This is not the copy I owned but it has the same printers crease.

 

SS #16

 

 

I will agree that Marvel Chipping does have affect on the grade (thou not as much as the same defect caused after the production process).

[garthgantu]

Good point, Sfilosa, and I'd also submit this thought: it maybe mere coincidence if in fact there are no Church books w/arrival dates at 9.8 or higher. It may be that the 9.4 and 9.6 books that DO have one or more of the 'defects' you cited (arrival dates, production creases, etc.) were graded at 9.4 or 9.6 for other reasons, and that the 'defects' you listed did NOT impact the grade. My understanding is that all the 'defects' you listed do not in fact negatively impact the grade, in CGC's eyes.

 

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...just because there are no 10.0 books with an arrival date stamped or written on them, doesn't mean that arrival dates negatively impact the CGC grade.

[Rip]

All of these effect the grade in some way or another. You can have grease pencil up to 9.8.

See the new grading guide there is a 9.8 MH from the 30's. (Not that I agree) As for the act of disassembling a book...this is restoration in my book. I guess any form of cleaning/ pressing is “restoring” the book to a more original form. However in my humble opinion I don’t find many dry cleaning/ pressing techniques objectionable. I really don’t care if someone used a white eraser to get rid of a little dirt. The process is not that involved, the effect is minor. However if someone took the book apart to preform the task, then I WOULD consider the restoration much more involved. Do the staple holes line up, is the wrap the same. Do the pages line up the same. I would guess most everyone has a certain tolerance for some form of mild restoration before discloser is needed. But the problem is not everyone agrees on what that may be.

[garthgantu]

All of these effect the grade in some way or another. You can have grease pencil up to 9.8.

See the new grading guide there is a 9.8 MH from the 30's.

 

Stop the Presses! CGC has issued a Grading Guide?? Oh, you're referring to the OS Grading Guide. I see. And you're implying/assuming that the same guidelines apply to CGC ? Sorry, I'm not buying it. CGC certainly adheres to many of the criteria in the OS Grading Guide (to varying degrees), but there are too many examples of specific instances in which the OS GG and CGC differ in opinion, to list them all here.

 

So I'll stick to my contention that the points Sfilosa listed are NOT factored into CGC's grades, at least based on all the examples I've seen.

 

[Rip]

I don't understand. The book is slabbed. What information do you have that suggests otherwise? Does this link count for anything?

http://scoop.diamondgalleries.com/scoop_article.asp?ai=3025&si=121

[garthgantu]

No, that link does not count for anything. I have written at least 1,000 press releases in my 18 years of PR, and that's all the page in question contains -- a press release. Very much like verbal agreements, press releases aren't worth the paper they're printed on (apologies to Samuel Goldwyn).

 

I've been compiling a list of discrepancies between CGC's grading criteria and the latest OS Grading Guide. It's not a short list. There are many, many ways in which OS and CGC differ on how various 'defects' should be factored into the grade. Steve Borock will confirm this, I expect. From staple rust to miswraps, and many things in between, CGC and OS don't see eye-to-eye.

 

The press release on the page you cited is merely a publicity ploy. I truly believe that CGC grades the same now as it did before issuing that release - which is to say, similarly to CGC but far from identically.

[garthgantu]

Rip: I just 'got' the other part of your post ... you're pointing out that some of the books in the latest OS GG are slabbed - and inferring that this serves as proof that CGC and OS use the same criteria. To reiterate, there are definitely overlaps between CGC's and Overstreet's grading criteria. And on a 9.8 book in particular, it's certainly possible that the limited defects will 'add up' similarly in both CGC's and Overstreet's opinions. But that doesn't mean they're both using identical criteria all the way down the line.

 

In fact, I find it interesting that in some cases, the OS Grading Guide shows the entire scan of a given slabbed book, including the label, and in other cases, they only show the comic - not the label. Could it be that this is because the OS GG disagreed with CGC's grade? I believe so.

 

At any rate, all you've gotta do is look at a few pages of the OS GG and note the 'cutoff points' for defects like distributor overspray and miswraps, and then look at a couple of CGCed books sporting grades higher than those allowed by OS for books with those defects. You can easily find such examples.

[Rip]

I'll be the first to agree that they don't "gel" perfectly. (However I don't see why Steve would put this out if his intent was to only agree with some of OS's standards .) But in this case regarding dates stamp etc. I believe this has been discussed before. I guess I can't remove all doubt until you until you hear it from Steve

[fantastic_four]

I've been compiling a list of discrepancies between CGC's grading criteria and the latest OS Grading Guide. It's not a short list. There are many, many ways in which OS and CGC differ on how various 'defects' should be factored into the grade. Steve Borock will confirm this, I expect. From staple rust to miswraps, and many things in between, CGC and OS don't see eye-to-eye.

 

Can you share some examples from your list, if not the complete list, in another thread? Or just send it to me via e-mail at ruddj@comcast.net and I'll post it for you? I've tried to start conversation on this topic both here and on the e-bay boards with very little response.

[garthgantu]

I'll get you that list, FF - I was planning to send it to you anyway, but wanted to wait 'til I'd gone through the entire OS GG... but I'll go ahead and send ya some notes, hopefully tonight.

 

Basically, there are numerous instances in which OS says "this defect is not permissible above Grade X," and the defect in question is seen regularly on slabbed books awarded grades above X by CGC.

 

Rip, Steve B. would be lying if he said "our grading guidelines match those of the Overstreet Grading Guide in every respect." It's that simple. Note that I'm not saying Steve B. is a liar - I don't think he is. I even recall a post from him at one point that said, in effect "well, we don't adhere EXACTLY to the OS grading guidelines, but we're pretty close."

[fantastic_four]

"well, we don't adhere EXACTLY to the OS grading guidelines, but we're pretty close."

 

Yea, I'm not interested in CGC versus Overstreet guideline comparisons to put anybody on the spot, whether it be you or CGC...I find comparative grading to be good exercise in becoming a better grader. If you sent me the list, I'd try to post it here (unless you told me not to) before I had a chance to create some kind of ego-driven retort to every one of your examples. I don't like to subjectively argue about grading, I much prefer totally objective debate about it.

[Rip]

"That simple" woud be Steve saying, yes dates stamp etc DO have an effect on the grade. Right?

As stated before I don't think they perfectly "gel", however I have no reason to believe they would take different positions on this point. (Especially given the simularities.) Nor do I see any information that would suggest otherwise. Do any other dealers share your few that date stamps have zero effect on the grade?

 

PS You can still have the same guidelines, but whether that translates to perfect results is another matter.