• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Attrition rate for re-slabs

Started by drbanner,

173 posts in this topic

Arty

Arty

Posted
Posted

Whoever that BSD is, he likes to resubmit mile high books: resub.txt

 

resubmits.png

 

This is just a fraction of resubmitted books, so far I have only collected complete info (in signature) from the first three signature auctions+selected individual titles. And naturally first auction(s) had less resubmits.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
kryptonitecomics

kryptonitecomics

Posted
Posted

This is called the crack out game and it's been going on in Coin collecting since slabbing started. I even had a book called, "how to make money in coins right now" and one of the top three ways was to crack PQ coins out of holders and resubmit them for higher grades.

 

It's only new to comics becuase of CGC's entrance in to Comics. Prior to CGC is was just called overgrading thumbsup2.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites
fantastic_four

fantastic_four

Posted
Posted
That book was definitely cleaned. I thought we were just talking about "undetectable" pressing to increase the grade. looks to me like the C&P was just missed in the CGC restoration check.

 

You know it was cleaned because you compared before and after scans. The question is, how are you supposed to know without access to a "before" scan? When we say "undetectable," we mean undetectable given just the book in your hands; no known traces of the work done are left.

 

Borock, Friesan, and Haspel aren't all-knowing...they learned much of their craft from those who preceeded them. Techniques to detect this kind of restoration haven't been developed yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
fantastic_four

fantastic_four

Posted
Posted

Some types of wet cleaning leave a detectable scent, and pressing is dectable when done on creases which break color or break paper fibres.

 

I already said all this about 8 posts further up the thread

Link to comment
Share on other sites
kryptonitecomics

kryptonitecomics

Posted
Posted
one of the top three ways was to crack PQ coins out of holders and resubmit them for higher grades.

 

What's a "PQ" coin?

 

Premium quality, meaning at the high end for the particular grade. If a coin was a really nice MS64 in an old holder, dealer would crack it out and resubmit hoping to get an MS65, which is worth a lot more $$$$.

 

In comic book terms it would be a really nice 9.2, that could be resubmitted and be returned as a 9.4. Thus inflating the value of your original purchase.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Arty

Arty

Posted
Posted

That resub list you just showed is actual resubs from one guy?? That's insane!!

 

It's just a list of resubmitted mile high books. I don't know who owns/resubmitted them. But there probably aren't many comic collectors who can afford to resubmit such books.... 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

I believe pressing is done without disassembling (sp) books. Also they are most likely pressed dry/slightly humidified , so there is no change in paper structure. I believe pressing is undetectable, no matter what kind of equipment you have.

 

It might be "possible" to detect some forms of dry cleaning. I saw a high magnification (50x?) picture of paper cleaned with common vinyl eraser and between paper fibres there were very small eraser particles (remnants). However it would take hours to look through one comic with that kind of magnification and they would mainly find particles of ordinary dust.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
tth2

tth2

Posted
Posted
Cleanin' and pressin'! Here's the auction links, and the work done is fairly evident:

 

Mile High Boy Comics #17 CGC 4.0

Mile High Boy Comics #17 CGC 7.5

 

The thing I don't understand in all of this is why CGC would upgrade the comic in a case like this, because it just makes them look really bad either for getting it so wrong in the first place or for signing off on these mystery improvements the second time around. Typically, if the owner broke it out of the slab and submitted it as a "new raw" book, then CGC would have no way of knowing, but given the pedigree and the markings, it's pretty obvious in this case and the case of the other MHs that it's a resub.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
GoodyRickles

GoodyRickles

Posted
Posted
Cleanin' and pressin'! Here's the auction links, and the work done is fairly evident:

 

Mile High Boy Comics #17 CGC 4.0

Mile High Boy Comics #17 CGC 7.5

 

The thing I don't understand in all of this is why CGC would upgrade the comic in a case like this, because it just makes them look really bad either for getting it so wrong in the first place or for signing off on these mystery improvements the second time around. Typically, if the owner broke it out of the slab and submitted it as a "new raw" book, then CGC would have no way of knowing, but given the pedigree and the markings, it's pretty obvious in this case and the case of the other MHs that it's a resub.

TT, I agree with you 100%!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
LordRahl

LordRahl

Posted
Posted

You're kidding right? The graders don't know and can't possibly be expected to remember what a particular book graded the first time it went through CGC. They are grading what is in front of them. If the book was cleaned and pressed and the grade was bettered by this process and if the restoration performed is undetected as is the case with pressing and dry cleaning then why wouldn't a book get a higher grade. The graders don't have the benefit of knowing that a particular book is a resubmit and the previous grade as well as "before" scans.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
awe4one

awe4one

Posted
Posted
Cleanin' and pressin'! Here's the auction links, and the work done is fairly evident:

 

Mile High Boy Comics #17 CGC 4.0

Mile High Boy Comics #17 CGC 7.5

 

The thing I don't understand in all of this is why CGC would upgrade the comic in a case like this, because it just makes them look really bad either for getting it so wrong in the first place or for signing off on these mystery improvements the second time around. Typically, if the owner broke it out of the slab and submitted it as a "new raw" book, then CGC would have no way of knowing, but given the pedigree and the markings, it's pretty obvious in this case and the case of the other MHs that it's a resub.

 

Yet another example that CGC needs to change their procedures to catch these upgrades. When you're talking a significant Pedigree such as the Mile High collection, these upgrades are casting CGC in a bad light considering they are the ones that put the notation on the slab in the first place. Sure they can plead ignorance all they want but the reality of this ignorance is they're being played for chumps, if the ignorance excuse is to be believed.....

 

Jim

Link to comment
Share on other sites
tth2

tth2

Posted
Posted
You're kidding right? The graders don't know and can't possibly be expected to remember what a particular book graded the first time it went through CGC. They are grading what is in front of them. If the book was cleaned and pressed and the grade was bettered by this process and if the restoration performed is undetected as is the case with pressing and dry cleaning then why wouldn't a book get a higher grade. The graders don't have the benefit of knowing that a particular book is a resubmit and the previous grade as well as "before" scans.

 

In fact, that's EXACTLY what I would expect from the graders, particularly Haspel and Borock, who according to legend are able to spot a MH book from a mile away (excuse the pun). I wouldn't necessarily expect them to remember if they had graded that specific book or what grade they gave, but upon seeing a book that looks like a MH book (or SF, WM, PC, etc.), you'd think they would pull up the database to see whether that issue from the pedigree had been graded already. In fact, I believe they have scans of everything, so they'd be able to pull up the scan to see if the comics match exactly.

 

In the case of something like the Boston pedigree, where there appears to be a zillion copies of every book, then it may not be so easy to spot a resub. But for a pedigree such as MH that is pretty well documented, and where it's known that there are not multiple copies, I continue to fail to see why they would want to give out a better grade the second time around.

 

Mind you, I'm not debating whether as the proper ethical choice they SHOULD grade it accurately each time, regardless of whether it's a resub or not. I'm merely saying that if it was my company and I knew for sure it was a resub, I would not give it a different grade the second time, except in the most exceptional circumstances, because that would be an admission that we made a mistake the first time around. The most important attribute of CGC and other third party grading services, in my opinion, is consistency, even more so than accuracy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
LordRahl

LordRahl

Posted
Posted

They have clearly stated all along that they grade the books blind. That means that even if they know it's a book that they have graded before they are NOT allowed to go look it up. I don't see how this in any way negatively affects their integrity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Go to topic listing