Is the Overstreet outdated when it comes to pricing???

[slym2none]

That was before you ever contacted me here.

 

(thumbs u

 

 

 

-slym

[Superman2006]

Show us a recent auction that ended with any golden age Batman at less than half guide!

 

 

Done.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/BATMAN-6-GD-2-0-GUIDE-446-00-no-reserve-white-pages_W0QQitemZ390034540295QQihZ026QQcategoryZ35751QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

45% of Guide.

 

That wasn't even difficult.

 

 

Your other examples may help prove your point (I haven't checked and I don't plan to check), but I did happen to check out this book and i see that it is described in the listing as missing the centerfold, and so this isn't really a "GD-2" IMHO. Wouldn't CGC grade this as incomplete, or a qualified 2.0 (I'm asking as I really don't know)? If good is $446, then I'm not sure what that means an incomplete good copy would be, say 25% of Guide? If so, then this book sold for more than 100% of guide... Also, if one just marries a centerfold from another copy to this book like the eBay seller suggests, then the buyer would first have to find such centerfold (at an additional cost), and then it would still only be a restored (with married centerfold) good copy, and would still have cost a lot more than it's worth in guide (for a restored good copy), IMHO...

[RockMyAmadeus]

Show us a recent auction that ended with any golden age Batman at less than half guide!

 

 

Done.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/BATMAN-6-GD-2-0-GUIDE-446-00-no-reserve-white-pages_W0QQitemZ390034540295QQihZ026QQcategoryZ35751QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

45% of Guide.

 

That wasn't even difficult.

 

 

Your other examples may help prove your point (I haven't checked and I don't plan to check), but I did happen to check out this book and i see that it is described in the listing as missing the centerfold, and so this isn't really a "GD-2" IMHO. Wouldn't CGC grade this as incomplete, or a qualified 2.0 (I'm asking as I really don't know)? If good is $446, then I'm not sure what that means an incomplete good copy would be, say 25% of Guide? If so, then this book sold for more than 100% of guide... Also, if one just marries a centerfold from another copy to this book like the eBay seller suggests, then the buyer would first have to find such centerfold (at an additional cost), and then it would still only be a restored (with married centerfold) good copy, and would still have cost a lot more than it's worth in guide (for a restored good copy), IMHO...

 

Your points are valid, and in this example, you would be correct.

 

However, when considering the "everything sells for much less than OPG raw on eBay", you have to consider the grade given by the seller, not the grade it might actually be.

 

Now, I realize this opens up a "chicken or the egg" type situation, whereby, as you point out, if all eBay sellers overgrade, then aren't people really paying OPG anyways when that overgrading is taken into account?

 

The answer to that is, not every eBay seller overgrades. Some even undergrade. Not many, but some. In my experience, and the anecdotal experiences of my colleagues, it works out to an average of "slightly overgraded" across the board.

 

Oh, and yeah, that WAS a rather poor example. Hopefully, my other examples make up for it.

[slym2none]

Show us a recent auction that ended with any golden age Batman at less than half guide!

 

 

Done.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/BATMAN-6-GD-2-0-GUIDE-446-00-no-reserve-white-pages_W0QQitemZ390034540295QQihZ026QQcategoryZ35751QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

45% of Guide.

 

That wasn't even difficult.

 

 

Your other examples may help prove your point (I haven't checked and I don't plan to check), but I did happen to check out this book and i see that it is described in the listing as missing the centerfold, and so this isn't really a "GD-2" IMHO. Wouldn't CGC grade this as incomplete, or a qualified 2.0 (I'm asking as I really don't know)? If good is $446, then I'm not sure what that means an incomplete good copy would be, say 25% of Guide? If so, then this book sold for more than 100% of guide... Also, if one just marries a centerfold from another copy to this book like the eBay seller suggests, then the buyer would first have to find such centerfold (at an additional cost), and then it would still only be a restored (with married centerfold) good copy, and would still have cost a lot more than it's worth in guide (for a restored good copy), IMHO...

 

Your points are valid, and in this example, you would be correct.

 

However, when considering the "everything sells for much less than OPG raw on eBay", you have to consider the grade given by the seller, not the grade it might actually be.

 

Now, I realize this opens up a "chicken or the egg" type situation, whereby, as you point out, if all eBay sellers overgrade, then aren't people really paying OPG anyways when that overgrading is taken into account?

 

The answer to that is, not every eBay seller overgrades. Some even undergrade. Not many, but some. In my experience, and the anecdotal experiences of my colleagues, it works out to an average of "slightly overgraded" across the board.

 

Oh, and yeah, that WAS a rather poor example. Hopefully, my other examples make up for it.

 

Well, he said that he hadn't checked, and was not going to check, your other examples. Take that for whatever it's worth.....

 

 

 

-slym

[Forsythe P Jones]

Here's another, in case anyone thinks 1,000,000 comix' example is a tad overgraded:

 

a tad overgraded? I wouldn't buy anything you or this lister!

 

The #21 might of been worth risking but the last one wouldn't of either, no grade, and looks risky.

 

I give you one out of three, so 33% of the books you showed sold for less than guide! Not even close to all of them! (as you claimed)

 

All you have proved here is ebay bidders are smart enough not to believe the posted grade, all 3 of these books graded and priced by a dealer who knows what they are doing (Jamie Graham, Harley Yee, etc) would not of had any trouble selling at their guide value!

[RockMyAmadeus]

Here's another, in case anyone thinks 1,000,000 comix' example is a tad overgraded:

 

a tad overgraded? I wouldn't buy anything you or this lister!

 

There seems to be a word or two missing from that sentence.

 

The #21 might of been worth risking but the last one wouldn't of either, no grade, and looks risky.

 

The "last one" is clearly a G/VG, barring some information that has not been included, and the seller has included copious pictures to show the condition of the book. And "risky" is the name of the game when buying raw...that's the whole point of this conversation. You can't single ONE auction out as being "risky"....they ALL ARE.

 

I give you one out of three, so 33% of the books you showed sold for less than guide! Not even close to all of them! (as you claimed)

 

All of them? You mean all three examples? "All" of those? Fact: all three auctions ended for less than 50% of OPG in the grade stated by the seller (or the grade that is obvious by the description and pictures.) And you didn't say "less than guide"....your requirement was "less than half guide." If it's "less than guide", EVERY ended auction would fit. And you're tossing out an example simply because it doesn't have a grade given to it...? Ok, but then you can't use it in the sample. That means it's out of TWO, and my average goes up to 50%, and that's with you discounting one example because you, personally, don't agree with the grade given by the seller. It doesn't work that way.

 

These are ONLY EXAMPLES. You want to get bogged down in the specific details of these specific auctions, while I am simply trying to paint a large picture that isn't very well defined, on purpose. It's GENERAL. It's AVERAGE.

 

And this conversation IS NOT about (just) Batman.

 

Read what I've written again, then come back and make a more reasonable response.

 

Do you need more examples? Here are some more:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/1942-Batman-Comic-Book-Issue-11-Very-Good_W0QQitemZ370164147328QQihZ024QQcategoryZ35751QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

Batman #11, SUPER KEY, graded VG, OPG is $1486, sold for $861. 57% of guide, for a super key early Batman book.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Batman-43-Oct-Nov-1947-G-2-5-3-0_W0QQitemZ170306412349QQihZ007QQcategoryZ35751QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

Batman #43, graded G+ or G/VG, OPG is $181.50 or $151.25, sold for $77. $77 is 42% of G/VG, and 51% of G+.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/BATMAN-40-1947-JOKER-COVER-DC_W0QQitemZ120384568408QQihZ002QQcategoryZ35751QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

Batman #40, graded G/VG, OPG = $250, sold for $125. That's 50% OPG, AND it was a Best Offer. Had it been in an open auction, it probably would have sold for less.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Batman-no-6-Dec-1944_W0QQitemZ130288733617QQihZ003QQcategoryZ68QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

Batman #26, graded 4.0-4.5. OPG = $310, or $348, depending on that grade. Sold for $152.50, or 49% in 4.0 and 44% in 4.5.

 

Let's toss in some mid-grade slabs, just for kicks:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Batman-6-8-9-1941-CGC-6-0-FINE_W0QQitemZ120382516967QQihZ002QQcategoryZ68QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

Bats #6, CGC Universal 6.0, sold for $992, OPG = $1338. A whopping nearly 26% discount off of what OPG says it's "worth", and that's removing all the factors we talked about earlier.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Batman-7-10-11-1941-CGC-6-0-FINE_W0QQitemZ120382515541QQihZ002QQcategoryZ68QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

Bats #7, CGC Uni 6.0, sold for $934, OPG = $1338. Over 30% off what OPG says it's worth.

 

Do you need more examples? This is just going back less than 2 weeks.

 

Are there examples that sold for MORE than 50% of Guide?

 

You bet.

 

But all of them sold for less than guide, where Guide publishes a value (ie, not Fair or worse.) And, again, I can only go back three weeks., and I STILL found auctions that met your criteria.

 

And the coup de grace of this entire conversation is that we are discussing the second most popular Golden Age character collected, in his own title. It only gets WORSE from there.

 

All you have proved here is ebay bidders are smart enough not to believe the posted grade, all 3 of these books graded and priced by a dealer who knows what they are doing (Jamie Graham, Harley Yee, etc) would not of had any trouble selling at their guide value!

 

Sure they would have. They do all the time.

 

They cannot be "priced" by anybody but the bidders. 1,000,000 comix, despite disagreements about this particular book, has been around a very long time, and are well thought of when it comes to grading.

 

The argument is simple: you challenged me to provide "any recent GA Batman auctions ending for less than half guide."

 

I have done that.

 

What more do you (now) want?

[Forsythe P Jones]

grade that is obvious by the description and pictures

 

ONLY TO YOU!

Properly graded golden age DC easily commands guide prices from any reputable dealer!

 

wait forget it, I don't care what you think!

 

ignore everything I've written on this subject above this line

 

Its just so shatterring to me that all the great dealers out there with decades of experience, know nothing about grading and using the Overstreet price guide!

 

I noticed your advice about taxes here for us too!

 

Gosh us forumites are so lucky to have someone who knows all about everything!

 

Thank you so much for gracing us with your humble all knowing self!

 

 

[slym2none]

 

 

 

-slym

[Rob]

I think OPG pricing is accurate for raw books, assuming the grade is accurate and the book is unrestored. Unfortunately on eBay, you can't be too sure, so people bid accordingly. That's where CGC adds value. CGC verifies the grade and restore check. I think on low to midgrade books, CGC-graded comics probably get closer to OPG prices.

 

I have a personal example. In June of last year, I bought a Detective 56 in CGC 2.5 on eBay for $176. Current OPG: $179. That's 98.3% of guide.

[Jeffro.]

I'm not sure you can base your argument on the inaccuarcy of OSPG on the fact that comics sell for less on ebay. ebay is like one huge discount flea market for a LOT of collectibles. Sure, some premium stuff sells for above 'guide', but a lot more sells for less than guide. I'm not just talking comics either.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

grade that is obvious by the description and pictures

 

ONLY TO YOU!

 

No, to anyone with an eye and a brain. And it is, of course, but one example.

 

Properly graded golden age DC easily commands guide prices from any reputable dealer!

 

So wait, are you now talking about GA DC, or are you still talking about GA Batman? Which is it?

 

As for GA DC....Prove it. (notice, I'm not questioning your assertion...yet....I'm simply asking you to provide evidence. Can you?)

 

eBay sales, comiclink, etc. Oh, and define "reputable dealer" while you're at it, so we're all on the same page.

 

wait forget it, I don't care what you think!

 

Except that you do, or you wouldn't keep posting. Ahhh...logic.

 

ignore everything I've written on this subject above this line

 

Its just so shatterring to me that all the great dealers out there with decades of experience, know nothing about grading and using the Overstreet price guide!

 

I noticed your advice about taxes here for us too!

 

Gosh us forumites are so lucky to have someone who knows all about everything!

 

You know, "us" forumites can speak for ourselves. Unless you mean the people inside your head.

 

Thank you so much for gracing us with your humble all knowing self!

 

 

 

You asked for any example, I gave you several. You then pull out the standard "I'm Surrendering In An Internet Debate" tactic of calling the other guy a "know it all."

 

Make up your mind, kid.

 

So don't sit there and sling insults. That's what people do when they have nothing solid to offer. Prove your claim. I did it. Can you?

 

(I predict I won't be getting a response from mssr. Jones.)

 

(thumbs u

[RockMyAmadeus]

I'm not sure you can base your argument on the inaccuarcy of OSPG on the fact that comics sell for less on ebay. ebay is like one huge discount flea market for a LOT of collectibles. Sure, some premium stuff sells for above 'guide', but a lot more sells for less than guide. I'm not just talking comics either.

 

 

The Overstreet Price Guide (and any price guide) is supposed to reflect the real value (technically retail value, but the internet changed all of that, so let's put that aside for now) of an item at the time the guide was published, right? That is, the price that a buyer with the money is willing to pay at any given moment in time.

 

eBay is, by far, the largest market for comic books (and other collectibles) in the world, right?

 

So, if you ignore eBay, you're ignoring the largest market in the world, and basing your information on...what? Convention sales? How does one confirm convention sales? Retail store sales? Same probem. And those sales account for a fraction of the sales that eBay does every day. Even tossing out the BINs (which a fair percentage of sell), there are still 75,000-85,000 auctions up every minute of every day, with an average of 8,000 auctions ending every single day. Are there 8,000 back issue sales a WEEK in all the rest of the market combined? Even if 50% of the auctions end without a bid, and not even factoring in the BINs that are sold, that would still be 4,000 sales each and every day, every day of the year.

 

How is it possible, then, to ignore the impact eBay has on the values of EVERYTHING that is sold there? One cannot. If Joe Blow Buyer is looking for a copy of Sandman #1 (1989), and he finds a copy he's pleased with on eBay for $20 shipped, why on earth would he spend $40 (current OPG) on the same thing at a retail store? Multiply that out times a lot.

 

The thing is, eBay is NOT a corner flea market which has no impact on the market. eBay is the world's biggest flea market, which has greatly, and permanently, changed the way that people buy collectibles of any kind.

 

Ignoring that, then, would make the information contained in the OPG based on partial, incomplete data...and wouldn't that render the guide useless....?

 

In other words, isn't it really worth what the stuff sells for on eBay, and NOT the far smaller, far more isolated convention sales and retail sales? That is, eBay is the RULE, rather than the exception?

[RockMyAmadeus]

If I was capable of making a chart, I totally would. Here's a crude one:

 

 

Now, granted, this is totally invented by me, and based solely on my own opinion, but I have a feeling it's not very far off. If eBay comprises such a vast chunk of all sales...how can it be ignored when coming up with a price guide based on sales?

[thehumantorch]

I'm not sure you can base your argument on the inaccuarcy of OSPG on the fact that comics sell for less on ebay. ebay is like one huge discount flea market for a LOT of collectibles. Sure, some premium stuff sells for above 'guide', but a lot more sells for less than guide. I'm not just talking comics either.

 

 

The Overstreet Price Guide (and any price guide) is supposed to reflect the real value (technically retail value, but the internet changed all of that, so let's put that aside for now) of an item at the time the guide was published, right? That is, the price that a buyer with the money is willing to pay at any given moment in time.

 

eBay is, by far, the largest market for comic books (and other collectibles) in the world, right?

 

So, if you ignore eBay, you're ignoring the largest market in the world, and basing your information on...what? Convention sales? How does one confirm convention sales? Retail store sales? Same probem. And those sales account for a fraction of the sales that eBay does every day. Even tossing out the BINs (which a fair percentage of sell), there are still 75,000-85,000 auctions up every minute of every day, with an average of 8,000 auctions ending every single day. Are there 8,000 back issue sales a WEEK in all the rest of the market combined? Even if 50% of the auctions end without a bid, and not even factoring in the BINs that are sold, that would still be 4,000 sales each and every day, every day of the year.

 

How is it possible, then, to ignore the impact eBay has on the values of EVERYTHING that is sold there? One cannot. If Joe Blow Buyer is looking for a copy of Sandman #1 (1989), and he finds a copy he's pleased with on eBay for $20 shipped, why on earth would he spend $40 (current OPG) on the same thing at a retail store? Multiply that out times a lot.

 

The thing is, eBay is NOT a corner flea market which has no impact on the market. eBay is the world's biggest flea market, which has greatly, and permanently, changed the way that people buy collectibles of any kind.

 

Ignoring that, then, would make the information contained in the OPG based on partial, incomplete data...and wouldn't that render the guide useless....?

 

In other words, isn't it really worth what the stuff sells for on eBay, and NOT the far smaller, far more isolated convention sales and retail sales? That is, eBay is the RULE, rather than the exception?

 

I agree but don't forget that most buyers on Ebay, especially more seasoned collectors who buy SA or GA, factor in the fact that the book is one or two full grades overgraded. If you are going to compare prices compare with a lower grade.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

I agree but don't forget that most buyers on Ebay, especially more seasoned collectors who buy SA or GA, factor in the fact that the book is one or two full grades overgraded. If you are going to compare prices compare with a lower grade.

 

Absolutely granted.

 

But then, how do you account for a CGC 6.0 Uni Batman #7 selling for 30% less than OPG in that grade?

 

Or a Lois Lane #70 4.5 selling for only 65% of OPG?

 

(these are but examples, there are plenty more)

 

That is, books with all that "unsurety" factored OUT, and still not selling for what the OPG says they are "worth"?

 

How much less, than, would those same books sell for raw?

 

The final analysis really, truly is inescapable: the OPG is overpriced for the vast majority of the books it values.

[thehumantorch]

Agreed. I was speaking only about non CGC books. Overstreet has been too high for mid/low grade for a long time. Everytime Overstreet increases the spread between low and high grade it encourages people to value low grade even lower as they just lost $$. I remember when Mint was twice the G price.

 

Another factor is the fact that buying on-line involves shipping and possible customs. I think some people factor that in when buying and certainly cheaper books aren't worth buying once a buyer considers the addition shipping cost.

 

I also agree that some/many prices are too high in any grade as I have lots of books of all era that I know I couldn't get guide. I figure most Overstreet prices are the BEST you could get under ideal conditions in person with someone that has to have that book....when they are staggering drunk.

[RockMyAmadeus]

. I figure most Overstreet prices are the BEST you could get under ideal conditions in person with someone that has to have that book....when they are staggering drunk.

 

lol

 

Agreed!

[Forsythe P Jones]

You know, "us" forumites can speak for ourselves. Unless you mean the people inside your head.

 

you're the one throwing insults...

 

Sandman #1 (1989),

 

no one said anything about modern comics

 

Make up your mind, kid.

 

there are no kids here

 

define "reputable dealer"

 

already did, Harley Yee, Jamie Graham, heres a few more Robert Beerbohm, Richard Evans, Mark Nathan, Doug Suplia, Dale Roberts, Al Stoltz, Bob Storms and theres plenty more..

 

but no one knows the world like you, your right about everything so we ought to just make you the king!

 

I predict I won't be getting a response from mssr. Jones

 

now you won't!

[RockMyAmadeus]

You know, "us" forumites can speak for ourselves. Unless you mean the people inside your head.

 

you're the one throwing insults...

 

Now we're reduced to "I know you are, but what am I?"...? Seriously....?

 

Sandman #1 (1989),

 

no one said anything about modern comics

 

That sentence fragment is so mindboggingly out of context, there's simply no way to answer the followup. It's like the guy picked a single line out of the Gettysburg address and then responded to me with it.

 

And au contraire...this entire conversation has been about the WHOLE OPG, not just SA and GA. Read the OP again.

 

Make up your mind, kid.

 

there are no kids here

 

Yeah. Right.

 

define "reputable dealer"

 

already did, Harley Yee, Jamie Graham, heres a few more Robert Beerbohm, Richard Evans, Mark Nathan, Doug Suplia, Dale Roberts, Al Stoltz, Bob Storms and theres plenty more..

 

Again, this guy doesn't even know what the word "define" means. Define water: evian, pacific ocean, tap, pool.

 

You know, using examples that he thinks fits, instead of actually defining the word.

 

but no one knows the world like you, your right about everything so we ought to just make you the king!

 

"you're", "your" is a possessive, "you're" is a contraction of "you" and "are."

 

(ain't I just the DICKENS...? )

 

And who is this "we" you keep talking about? Why don't you just speak for yourself, and let everyone else speak for themselves, ....? You presume everyone else agrees with you. I'm betting no one does.

 

I predict I won't be getting a response from mssr. Jones

 

now you won't!

 

Yeah, that's pretty much what I figured.

 

On the internet, when it comes to put up or shut up, 99.946% of the time, it's "let's just toss insults."

 

Typical. Oh well.

[thehumantorch]

Reading through this thread I can't understand why it turned nasty. Can't we just have a logical discussion about Overstreet prices and get along?