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Little eBay/paypal glitch for sellers to watch out for...

Started by CKB,

29 posts in this topic

CKB

CKB

Posted
Posted

...For many of my eBay listings I use the "insurance required" setting for calculated shipping costs. (You know, for listings when I am going to buy insurance). One of the conveniences of having this set is that when a Paypal payment is made and you use Paypal to print a shipping label, the insurance option is "on" by default with the insurance amount set to the winning bid amount on the "print label" screen.

 

"Insurance required" also calculates the insurance cost automatically (somehow) based on the ending price and probably the shipping service chosen. One of the changes in the past was to take the ability of the seller to set the amount paid for insurance when LISTING. (I believe sellers can still change this amount when sending an invoice.)

 

It also requires the buyer to have an amount in the "insurance" field on checkout. I did not realize buyers can change this amount. It appears that although it cannot be set to zero, it can be hand-lowered to any amount above that.

 

I had a buyer lower it to $0.10 (from $1.70), and the eBay/Paypal "print label" screen still indicated insurance was paid for. I only noticed since the buyer was from the same region as me and the total shipping cost paid was about $5, impossible for a 2-pound USPS priority mail package with insurance (Minimum would be $6.55). Sure enough, when looking at the details of the Paypal payment, it says $0.10 as the insurance amount paid.

 

Bottom line is to hand-reconcile the amount paid for shipping versus the amount that was supposed to be paid for shipping. And that the "insurance required" setting doesn't get you much.

 

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Jeffreykli

Jeffreykli

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Another frustrating thing is that if you let eBay calculate the insurance cost, it'll be actual, which won't take into account the paypal fees. So, by letting someone buy insurance, you're actually losing money.

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PrismaticSmoke

PrismaticSmoke

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Why would a buyer buy insurance for the seller? Paypal says it is the seller responsibility to get package from point A to point B in the condition advertised, seems to me that even having an option to sucker the buyer into buying the seller insurance seems odd.

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CKB

CKB

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You do realize their is an option on E-Bay to allow buyers to alter the amounts, or to disable it so they cannot alter the amounts...

 

But hey, let's blame the buyers.

 

edit: Could you point me to the option to disallow the changing of the amounts? I can't find it.

 

edit 2: I found it and changed it, thanks!

 

I agree eBay should not allow a buyer to change this amount. I also think it's a premeditated act by this buyer to know that insurance was required and then change the amount to $0.10.

 

I see it happening this way:

 

- Buyer sees a $1.70 charge for shipping on checkout

- Buyer changes it to 0 since he does not want to pay for insurance

- Buyer gets a screen that says insurance is required

- Buyer changes it to $0.10 to get around the requirement rather than comply with the terms of the listing. A more reasonable course of action is to contact the seller and ask about the insurance requirement. (It so happens in this particular case I would have issued a waiver :) )

 

So, yes, I am blaming the buyer for not meeting the terms of the listing. And I am blaming eBay for allowing it to happen. And I blame you for everything else! :baiting:

 

:kidaround:

 

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CKB

CKB

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Why would a buyer buy insurance for the seller? Paypal says it is the seller responsibility to get package from point A to point B in the condition advertised, seems to me that even having an option to sucker the buyer into buying the seller insurance seems odd.

 

I'm not sure it's worth responding to this with a full explanation, so I will drop it to this: further consideration may lead you to conclude that the insurance protects both parties against events completely out of both parties' control.

 

If I required someone to buy insurance that I handed a book to at a show, I would see your point. hm:devil:

 

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

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I'm still trying to figure out how to tie the insurance charged with the actual final bid.....

 

I may be blind, but I've looked. Adding "required insurance" forces you to put in a number BEFORE the item is even listed.

 

How does one do that when one doesn't know what the final bid will be.....?

 

Lame.

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CKB

CKB

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I'm still trying to figure out how to tie the insurance charged with the actual final bid.....

 

I may be blind, but I've looked. Adding "required insurance" forces you to put in a number BEFORE the item is even listed.

 

How does one do that when one doesn't know what the final bid will be.....?

 

Lame.

 

I don't believe you can set the amount paid for insurance anymore. I just checked it on the web-page listing screens, and when you select "insurance required" there is no longer a way to enter an amount. I have not checked Turbo Lister.

 

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Broken Shakespear

Broken Shakespear

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Why would a buyer buy insurance for the seller? Paypal says it is the seller responsibility to get package from point A to point B in the condition advertised, seems to me that even having an option to sucker the buyer into buying the seller insurance seems odd.

 

What you say isn't true.

 

What has been successfully argued in court is that a buyer and seller conduct a transaction, and when the money changes hands (instantly with Paypal), the item becomes the buyers. The seller is now the custodian of the buyer's property, and as part of the transaction, has agreed to deliver the item to a shipper on the seller's behalf. It is up to the new owner to make sure the item is insured, if they want that service. If they really want to protect the item, they can pick it up in person. The next lower level or protection is insurance. If a seller refuses to ship the item after it is paid for, they are holding stolen property, should the buyer choose to report it.

 

If the seller ships the item, and the buyer receives it and then pays, then protecting the item in shipment is the sellers responsibility.

 

The exception to this is if the buyer and seller have a contract that explicitly states that ownership of the property does not transfer until it received in XYZ condition, or any other terms the two parties want to apply (it has to arrived backed into a cake, etc.). Then it may be in the interest of both parties to protect the item.

 

However, no such contract is established by default on E-Bay purchases. All purchase on E-Bay are made pursuant to a shipment contract, which means that the seller has sold your item and agreed to ship it, but once it is shipped, it becomes property of the buyer. So any purchase on E-Bay falls back into the catagory that as soon as the money changes hands, it becomes the property of the buyer.

 

The same holds true for Target, Amazon, Wal-Mart. They own the item until you pay for it. Once you have paid, it is yours, regardless of where it might be. Your purchase is pursuant to a shipment contract. However, they are good custodians because they take out insurance policies themselves, which benefit you (of course the price of which are factored into what you pay for the item). However, individual sellers or small business may not be able to go that extra mile to protect the buyer.

 

Also, Paypal takes out a similar type of insurance for its Buyer and Seller Protection Programs. It is important to note that a seller can opt out of the BPP, so just because you pay with Paypal, doesn't mean you are protected. Also, when you agree to Paypal's terms (essentially a contract), you do agree to allow them to be arbitor of disputes and one of the powers you grant them is the ability to take the money from the seller and give it back to the buyer. However, they do that infrequently now, and what usually happens is a buyer will get their money back, and the seller will keep their money, and Paypal just files it against their insurance policy. However, if they suspect something shady or see a pattern of misbehavior, the may take action against the buyer or seller.

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

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I'm still trying to figure out how to tie the insurance charged with the actual final bid.....

 

I may be blind, but I've looked. Adding "required insurance" forces you to put in a number BEFORE the item is even listed.

 

How does one do that when one doesn't know what the final bid will be.....?

 

Lame.

 

I don't believe you can set the amount paid for insurance anymore. I just checked it on the web-page listing screens, and when you select "insurance required" there is no longer a way to enter an amount. I have not checked Turbo Lister.

 

Is this for US, or International? I just listed last night, and it was "enter amount" for US, but not with Int'l.

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

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Why would a buyer buy insurance for the seller? Paypal says it is the seller responsibility to get package from point A to point B in the condition advertised, seems to me that even having an option to sucker the buyer into buying the seller insurance seems odd.

 

What you say isn't true.

 

What has been successfully argued in court is that a buyer and seller conduct a transaction, and when the money changes hands (instantly with Paypal), the item becomes the buyers. The seller is now the custodian of the buyer's property, and as part of the transaction, has agreed to deliver the item to a shipper on the seller's behalf. It is up to the new owner to make sure the item is insured, if they want that service. If they really want to protect the item, they can pick it up in person. The next lower level or protection is insurance. If a seller refuses to ship the item after it is paid for, they are holding stolen property, should the buyer choose to report it.

 

If the seller ships the item, and the buyer receives it and then pays, then protecting the item in shipment is the sellers responsibility.

 

The exception to this is if the buyer and seller have a contract that explicitly states that ownership of the property does not transfer until it received in XYZ condition, or any other terms the two parties want to apply (it has to arrived backed into a cake, etc.). Then it may be in the interest of both parties to protect the item.

 

However, no such contract is established by default on E-Bay purchases. All purchase on E-Bay are made pursuant to a shipment contract, which means that the seller has sold your item and agreed to ship it, but once it is shipped, it becomes property of the buyer. So any purchase on E-Bay falls back into the catagory that as soon as the money changes hands, it becomes the property of the buyer.

 

The same holds true for Target, Amazon, Wal-Mart. They own the item until you pay for it. Once you have paid, it is yours, regardless of where it might be. Your purchase is pursuant to a shipment contract. However, they are good custodians because they take out insurance policies themselves, which benefit you (of course the price of which are factored into what you pay for the item). However, individual sellers or small business may not be able to go that extra mile to protect the buyer.

 

Also, Paypal takes out a similar type of insurance for its Buyer and Seller Protection Programs. It is important to note that a seller can opt out of the BPP, so just because you pay with Paypal, doesn't mean you are protected. Also, when you agree to Paypal's terms (essentially a contract), you do agree to allow them to be arbitor of disputes and one of the powers you grant them is the ability to take the money from the seller and give it back to the buyer. However, they do that infrequently now, and what usually happens is a buyer will get their money back, and the seller will keep their money, and Paypal just files it against their insurance policy. However, if they suspect something shady or see a pattern of misbehavior, the may take action against the buyer or seller.

 

Darque Archer....? ;)

 

You got any specific cases for the examples you mention? I'd like to see those.

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PrismaticSmoke

PrismaticSmoke

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Why would a buyer buy insurance for the seller? Paypal says it is the seller responsibility to get package from point A to point B in the condition advertised, seems to me that even having an option to sucker the buyer into buying the seller insurance seems odd.

 

What you say isn't true.

 

What has been successfully argued in court is that a buyer and seller conduct a transaction, and when the money changes hands (instantly with Paypal), the item becomes the buyers. The seller is now the custodian of the buyer's property, and as part of the transaction, has agreed to deliver the item to a shipper on the seller's behalf. It is up to the new owner to make sure the item is insured, if they want that service. If they really want to protect the item, they can pick it up in person. The next lower level or protection is insurance. If a seller refuses to ship the item after it is paid for, they are holding stolen property, should the buyer choose to report it.

 

If the seller ships the item, and the buyer receives it and then pays, then protecting the item in shipment is the sellers responsibility.

 

The exception to this is if the buyer and seller have a contract that explicitly states that ownership of the property does not transfer until it received in XYZ condition, or any other terms the two parties want to apply (it has to arrived backed into a cake, etc.). Then it may be in the interest of both parties to protect the item.

 

However, no such contract is established by default on E-Bay purchases. All purchase on E-Bay are made pursuant to a shipment contract, which means that the seller has sold your item and agreed to ship it, but once it is shipped, it becomes property of the buyer. So any purchase on E-Bay falls back into the catagory that as soon as the money changes hands, it becomes the property of the buyer.

 

The same holds true for Target, Amazon, Wal-Mart. They own the item until you pay for it. Once you have paid, it is yours, regardless of where it might be. Your purchase is pursuant to a shipment contract. However, they are good custodians because they take out insurance policies themselves, which benefit you (of course the price of which are factored into what you pay for the item). However, individual sellers or small business may not be able to go that extra mile to protect the buyer.

 

Also, Paypal takes out a similar type of insurance for its Buyer and Seller Protection Programs. It is important to note that a seller can opt out of the BPP, so just because you pay with Paypal, doesn't mean you are protected. Also, when you agree to Paypal's terms (essentially a contract), you do agree to allow them to be arbitor of disputes and one of the powers you grant them is the ability to take the money from the seller and give it back to the buyer. However, they do that infrequently now, and what usually happens is a buyer will get their money back, and the seller will keep their money, and Paypal just files it against their insurance policy. However, if they suspect something shady or see a pattern of misbehavior, the may take action against the buyer or seller.

 

I only had to file a dispute 1 time ever with paypal and got my money back. But there are hundreds of sellers on ebay who would disagree with your statement above. Paypal wants proof of delivery if you ship me an item, w/out confirmation or insurance, and I say I did not get it, you lost period.

 

I personally think it is the sellers responsibility to get the item they sell to the buyers hands safely as advertised. So yeah I think the seller should always plan for and pay the insurance, to protect themselves, it is like begging for trouble not doing it.

 

As for the court cases, the law is always in motion, always changing, while I have not yet finished my study of law (2 years to go) I would love to see relevant case law and most interested in the date of said cases, it is not a huge leap to convince a Judge otherwise.

 

If you have specific cases I can read about them on lexisnexus :)

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Jeffreykli

Jeffreykli

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Why would a buyer buy insurance for the seller? Paypal says it is the seller responsibility to get package from point A to point B in the condition advertised, seems to me that even having an option to sucker the buyer into buying the seller insurance seems odd.

 

What you say isn't true.

 

What has been successfully argued in court is that a buyer and seller conduct a transaction, and when the money changes hands (instantly with Paypal), the item becomes the buyers. The seller is now the custodian of the buyer's property, and as part of the transaction, has agreed to deliver the item to a shipper on the seller's behalf. It is up to the new owner to make sure the item is insured, if they want that service. If they really want to protect the item, they can pick it up in person. The next lower level or protection is insurance. If a seller refuses to ship the item after it is paid for, they are holding stolen property, should the buyer choose to report it.

 

If the seller ships the item, and the buyer receives it and then pays, then protecting the item in shipment is the sellers responsibility.

 

The exception to this is if the buyer and seller have a contract that explicitly states that ownership of the property does not transfer until it received in XYZ condition, or any other terms the two parties want to apply (it has to arrived backed into a cake, etc.). Then it may be in the interest of both parties to protect the item.

 

However, no such contract is established by default on E-Bay purchases. All purchase on E-Bay are made pursuant to a shipment contract, which means that the seller has sold your item and agreed to ship it, but once it is shipped, it becomes property of the buyer. So any purchase on E-Bay falls back into the catagory that as soon as the money changes hands, it becomes the property of the buyer.

 

The same holds true for Target, Amazon, Wal-Mart. They own the item until you pay for it. Once you have paid, it is yours, regardless of where it might be. Your purchase is pursuant to a shipment contract. However, they are good custodians because they take out insurance policies themselves, which benefit you (of course the price of which are factored into what you pay for the item). However, individual sellers or small business may not be able to go that extra mile to protect the buyer.

 

Also, Paypal takes out a similar type of insurance for its Buyer and Seller Protection Programs. It is important to note that a seller can opt out of the BPP, so just because you pay with Paypal, doesn't mean you are protected. Also, when you agree to Paypal's terms (essentially a contract), you do agree to allow them to be arbitor of disputes and one of the powers you grant them is the ability to take the money from the seller and give it back to the buyer. However, they do that infrequently now, and what usually happens is a buyer will get their money back, and the seller will keep their money, and Paypal just files it against their insurance policy. However, if they suspect something shady or see a pattern of misbehavior, the may take action against the buyer or seller.

 

I only had to file a dispute 1 time ever with paypal and got my money back. But there are hundreds of sellers on ebay who would disagree with your statement above. Paypal wants proof of delivery if you ship me an item, w/out confirmation or insurance, and I say I did not get it, you lost period.

 

I personally think it is the sellers responsibility to get the item they sell to the buyers hands safely as advertised. So yeah I think the seller should always plan for and pay the insurance, to protect themselves, it is like begging for trouble not doing it.

 

As for the court cases, the law is always in motion, always changing, while I have not yet finished my study of law (2 years to go) I would love to see relevant case law and most interested in the date of said cases, it is not a huge leap to convince a Judge otherwise.

 

If you have specific cases I can read about them on lexisnexus :)

 

It's been a long time since law school, but essentially what you're talking about is when title passes. Whomever has legal title to the property bears the risk of loss. Do a little research as to when title normally passes, search "F.O.B." and shipping terms. This is pretty settled law.

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comixcroz

comixcroz

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Why would a buyer buy insurance for the seller? Paypal says it is the seller responsibility to get package from point A to point B in the condition advertised, seems to me that even having an option to sucker the buyer into buying the seller insurance seems odd.

 

What you say isn't true.

 

What has been successfully argued in court is that a buyer and seller conduct a transaction, and when the money changes hands (instantly with Paypal), the item becomes the buyers. The seller is now the custodian of the buyer's property, and as part of the transaction, has agreed to deliver the item to a shipper on the seller's behalf. It is up to the new owner to make sure the item is insured, if they want that service. If they really want to protect the item, they can pick it up in person. The next lower level or protection is insurance. If a seller refuses to ship the item after it is paid for, they are holding stolen property, should the buyer choose to report it.

 

If the seller ships the item, and the buyer receives it and then pays, then protecting the item in shipment is the sellers responsibility.

 

The exception to this is if the buyer and seller have a contract that explicitly states that ownership of the property does not transfer until it received in XYZ condition, or any other terms the two parties want to apply (it has to arrived backed into a cake, etc.). Then it may be in the interest of both parties to protect the item.

 

However, no such contract is established by default on E-Bay purchases. All purchase on E-Bay are made pursuant to a shipment contract, which means that the seller has sold your item and agreed to ship it, but once it is shipped, it becomes property of the buyer. So any purchase on E-Bay falls back into the catagory that as soon as the money changes hands, it becomes the property of the buyer.

 

The same holds true for Target, Amazon, Wal-Mart. They own the item until you pay for it. Once you have paid, it is yours, regardless of where it might be. Your purchase is pursuant to a shipment contract. However, they are good custodians because they take out insurance policies themselves, which benefit you (of course the price of which are factored into what you pay for the item). However, individual sellers or small business may not be able to go that extra mile to protect the buyer.

 

Also, Paypal takes out a similar type of insurance for its Buyer and Seller Protection Programs. It is important to note that a seller can opt out of the BPP, so just because you pay with Paypal, doesn't mean you are protected. Also, when you agree to Paypal's terms (essentially a contract), you do agree to allow them to be arbitor of disputes and one of the powers you grant them is the ability to take the money from the seller and give it back to the buyer. However, they do that infrequently now, and what usually happens is a buyer will get their money back, and the seller will keep their money, and Paypal just files it against their insurance policy. However, if they suspect something shady or see a pattern of misbehavior, the may take action against the buyer or seller.

 

I only had to file a dispute 1 time ever with paypal and got my money back. But there are hundreds of sellers on ebay who would disagree with your statement above. Paypal wants proof of delivery if you ship me an item, w/out confirmation or insurance, and I say I did not get it, you lost period.

 

I personally think it is the sellers responsibility to get the item they sell to the buyers hands safely as advertised. So yeah I think the seller should always plan for and pay the insurance, to protect themselves, it is like begging for trouble not doing it.

 

As for the court cases, the law is always in motion, always changing, while I have not yet finished my study of law (2 years to go) I would love to see relevant case law and most interested in the date of said cases, it is not a huge leap to convince a Judge otherwise.

 

If you have specific cases I can read about them on lexisnexus :)

In my experience, buying insurance does not necessarily protect the seller. I have had 2 items (out of hundreds) that have been damaged during transit. Both electronics. In both cases, I purchased insurance for the items on my own dime. The reason it does not protect the seller all of the time is because the buyer is the one you has to file the insurance claim. I sold a Marshal guitar Amp that got damaged - ins was claimed and everything went fine. I sold a PSP that was damaged during transit and the buyer refused to file an insurance claim, I fought it on paypal and LOST. I ended up having to give a full refund for the item and was left with a broken PSP and I was not allowed to file the claim because the item was not considered my property when it was broken during transit.

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PrismaticSmoke

PrismaticSmoke

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That is the fundamental problem with paypal. When I sold on ebay I stated not responsible for any item not insured. Paypal comes along with there policies and then bam, Paypal says it is the sellers responsibility to ensure the package arrives, no matter what the terms of the auction stated.

 

So why should a buyer pay for insurance when paypal will recover for them? Of course you could say no paypal, check or M/O only, buyer pays insurance. Now in THAT case it is beneficial for the buyer to buy insurance as that is THERE only protection. Of course ebay got rid of the Check or M/O payments so pretty much everyone is forced into paypal, an ebay company.

 

So with Paypal, there is no reason for a buyer to purchase insurance as they are covered, without paypal a buyer should ALWAYS purchase insurance. Now is that right? or is that wrong? I left ebay as a seller because I do not want to be told how to sell and then have paypal disagree and steal my money.

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Broken Shakespear

Broken Shakespear

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I only had to file a dispute 1 time ever with paypal and got my money back. But there are hundreds of sellers on ebay who would disagree with your statement above. Paypal wants proof of delivery if you ship me an item, w/out confirmation or insurance, and I say I did not get it, you lost period.

 

I personally think it is the sellers responsibility to get the item they sell to the buyers hands safely as advertised. So yeah I think the seller should always plan for and pay the insurance, to protect themselves, it is like begging for trouble not doing it.

 

As for the court cases, the law is always in motion, always changing, while I have not yet finished my study of law (2 years to go) I would love to see relevant case law and most interested in the date of said cases, it is not a huge leap to convince a Judge otherwise.

 

If you have specific cases I can read about them on lexisnexus :)

 

Like I said, when you sign up with Paypal, you are agreeing to a contract with Paypal. That contract states that in the case of dispute regarding payment, you agree to give Paypal arbitration powers. However, you can still legally hold the buyer to the original purchase contract, which is with E-Bay and not Paypal. So if Paypal gives the money back to the buyer, which you as a seller have agreed to let them do, the status of the item becomes unpaid (which is why it still shows up on E-Bay, but shows up unpaid after a dispute).

 

What most people don't know is that the binding bid and winning auction is still a legal contract the buyer is obligated to fulfill (assuming there was no fraud), because it was made on E-bay, and nothing that happened at Paypal invalidated that contract. The buyer is still legally obligated to pay for the item, even if Paypal refunded their money in a dispute. So if they buyer refuses to repay after a Paypal dispute payment reversal, you technically have legal recourse against them for damages you might incur from loss of sale.

 

The legal standing of the bid and purchase agreement is established on E-Bay. The transfer of payment occurs at Paypal, and Paypal has certain powers in respect to the transfer of payment. Even though one is owned by the other, they are still two separate entities and what one does, doesn't effect the other. A Paypal claim simply means that the item goes from being paid for, to not being paid for. The original purchase agreement made on E-Bay is still a standing contract that the buyer and seller must fulfill.

 

It's actually not just legal precedence. It is law, and there are numerous cases where that law was enforce. In 1995 there was something called the Sale of Goods Act (I believe), which was an amended version to the one in 1994, 1989, 1979, etc.. It defines when ownership of property exchanges hands. In this act, it expressly states that the two parties (buyer/seller) are free to set their own terms as to when ownership transfers. However, it also provides rules in the case that no conditions were defined. Rule 1 is (I'm paraphrasing here from memory):

 

In the event there is an unconditional contract for sale of specific goods, the ownership of the goods passes to the buyer at the time the contract is made, regardless of the time of payment or delivery.

 

So per this law, you own it they moment you win your bid, before you even pay. However, the contract you have with E-Bay as a seller is that you agree to ship the item to the buyer, assuming that you offered shipping (not pick-up only). So because you entered into contract with E-Bay, to fulfill your end of the contract, you must also ship the item, which means your contract is pursuant to shipping.

 

However, there is another rule which allows a judge to decide when the buyer/seller intended for ownership to pass. For example, you agree to buy my used car, but can't pay for it for three days. Then I continue to use the car those three days. Then something happens to the car, or you can't pay me for it when the three days are up, so I sue you. A judge can rule and say that since I still used the car, I didn't intend for ownership to pass until I was paid, and then the judge can throw out Rule #1.

 

So the law says you own it as soon as you win the bid, before you even pay. But your contract with E-bay adds to that, and you own it the moment the seller hands it to the shipper. Of course, they won't do that until they are paid, so effectively (but not legally) you own it when you win the bid, pay, and then the seller hands it to the shipper. So insurance on E-Bay is for the buyer, not the seller. The seller just has to be able to prove they gave it to a shipper, and shipped it to the agreed upon destination.

 

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