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Avengers #4 CGC 9.0 Sold on Ebay.

Started by SPDREYCER,

87 posts in this topic

nmtg9

nmtg9

Posted
Posted

There was an old thread about it somewhere - cant remember the exact details (something to do with his first appearance?) but im sure Whisp would know the answer

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dikran

dikran

Posted
Posted

Is it an appearance if Mysterio makes Spidey THINK he is fighting Wolverine on the moon? The Acrobat is the Acrobat regardless of what Halloween costume he made for himself. It would be the same as a splash page of a costume ball where random civilians dressed as heroes...

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Aman619

Aman619

Posted
Posted

tough questions: common sense against whats before our eyes! Clearly when the creators write and draw a character on a cover or story, they do so intentionally, and expect us, the kids/readers who are fans of the character to buy the issue. So YES those appearances do count as Appearances as that was what was in the minds of the creators. "Lets have Mysterio have Spidey fight all his villains so their fans will but the issue to see their favorite villain appear."

 

However, as collectors who take these things "seriously", we know that CAP does NOT appear in this story even though Stan and Jack intended for us to think so by using Cap on the cover.

 

So, bottom line, its not exactly a toss up, AV4 is IMO his first appearance just as collectors have always believed, with ST114 getting an asterisk and special attention as a minor key. But, in a movie fueled hysteria marketplace, who can say whether ST114 might garner more attention, or a greater price appreciation than AV4??

 

 

and, with the say Marvel changes everything lately to goose sales. I wouldnt be totally surprised if someday we find out that Acrobat really WAS in fact Cap! Thawed out a few months early, then fell into the arctic again!

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Bronty

Bronty

Posted
Posted
tough questions: common sense against whats before our eyes! Clearly when the creators write and draw a character on a cover or story, they do so intentionally, and expect us, the kids/readers who are fans of the character to buy the issue. So YES those appearances do count as Appearances as that was what was in the minds of the creators. "Lets have Mysterio have Spidey fight all his villains so their fans will but the issue to see their favorite villain appear."

 

However, as collectors who take these things "seriously", we know that CAP does NOT appear in this story even though Stan and Jack intended for us to think so by using Cap on the cover.

 

So, bottom line, its not exactly a toss up, AV4 is IMO his first appearance

 

I'm not disputing that for a minute, I just think people forget about ST114 sometimes and that there was a "first" cap before the first cap, if you know what I mean.

 

In the grand scheme of things, honestly, I don't think either book is all that crazy important. I wouldn't put either in a top ten SA marvel list. Both wonderful books and personal faves of mine, but in my mind there is a huge difference between a first appearance and a "first silver age" appearance which is really not a first appearance at all.

 

 

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Aman619

Aman619

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Posted

Even still, first SA appearance of a resurrected character like Cap is definitely one of the 10 top Marvel keys. Always has been... by definition, and the overall bland suckiness of Cap cant diminish that fact!

 

: )

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Guardian Comics

Guardian Comics

Posted
Posted
tough questions: common sense against whats before our eyes! Clearly when the creators write and draw a character on a cover or story, they do so intentionally, and expect us, the kids/readers who are fans of the character to buy the issue. So YES those appearances do count as Appearances as that was what was in the minds of the creators. "Lets have Mysterio have Spidey fight all his villains so their fans will but the issue to see their favorite villain appear."

 

However, as collectors who take these things "seriously", we know that CAP does NOT appear in this story even though Stan and Jack intended for us to think so by using Cap on the cover.

 

So, bottom line, its not exactly a toss up, AV4 is IMO his first appearance

 

I'm not disputing that for a minute, I just think people forget about ST114 sometimes and that there was a "first" cap before the first cap, if you know what I mean.

 

In the grand scheme of things, honestly, I don't think either book is all that crazy important. I wouldn't put either in a top ten SA marvel list. Both wonderful books and personal faves of mine, but in my mind there is a huge difference between a first appearance and a "first silver age" appearance which is really not a first appearance at all.

 

 

I'd be most interested in seeing your list of top 10 Marvels that doesn't include Avengers #4? Might make a nice debate in itself hm .

 

Jim

 

 

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Bronty

Bronty

Posted
Posted

Well again I don't view it as a true first appearance so how could it possibly be a top ten? "First SA" appearance is a big step down from first app., IMO

 

off the top of my head, and without really thinking about it, I would put all twelve of these ahead of av4.. I could probably think of a few more if I spent more time on it.

 

av1

xmen1

ST110

ff1

ff4 (also a 'first sa' app but I would give it the nod for being a much earlier book in a much more important title)

ff5

AF15

asm1

TOS39

TTA 27

JIM 83

Hulk 1

 

 

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COI

COI

Posted
Posted
Well again I don't view it as a true first appearance so how could it possibly be a top ten? "First SA" appearance is a big step down from first app., IMO

 

off the top of my head, and without really thinking about it, I would put all twelve of these ahead of av4.. I could probably think of a few more if I spent more time on it.

 

av1

xmen1

ST110

ff1

ff4 (also a 'first sa' app but I would give it the nod for being a much earlier book in a much more important title)

ff5

AF15

asm1

TOS39

TTA 27

JIM 83

Hulk 1

 

 

Totall agree. I would also add DD #1 before AV #4 and #1. DD #1 may not be "hot" right now, but Daredevil is a major character in the marvel universe, having had his own title since 1964. He has never fallen into obscurity, and he outperformed X-Men in the SA. I think the first appearance of a major character is more important than the first "S.A" appearance of a major character, especially when there's a dispute over which issue is his actual first appearance.

 

And to the OP, if you want to invest in any key, DD #1 would be the one to buy. It'll eventually have its day in the sun, and we'll see a similar thread about how you couldn't "give 9.0s away" during this time period.

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TeddieMercede

TeddieMercede

Posted
Posted

7K for a 9.0 seems a bit much to be honest. Its a great book with a great cover and I dont know why demand was so low in years past but in my opinion there are way too many high grade copies to sustain price points near what they seem to be at right now. If you are looking for a high grade copy Id wait.

 

Bronty your list seems dependent on people viewing Avengers 4 simply as the reintroduction of Captain America (which it is). Thing is a large amount of Silver Age collectors do not collect Golden Age books and for them Avengers 4 is the Captain America book to get. Dont really get the importance of ST 114 either, to me it seems like a book that was hyped a bit for no real reason and shouldnt be selling at the prices that it currently is at.

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Aman619

Aman619

Posted
Posted
Well again I don't view it as a true first appearance so how could it possibly be a top ten? "First SA" appearance is a big step down from first app., IMO

 

off the top of my head, and without really thinking about it, I would put all twelve of these ahead of av4.. I could probably think of a few more if I spent more time on it.

 

av1

xmen1

ST110

ff1

ff4 (also a 'first sa' app but I would give it the nod for being a much earlier book in a much more important title)

ff5

AF15

asm1

TOS39

TTA 27

JIM 83

Hulk 1

 

 

seeing the list, maybe we need think of a top Dozen Marvel keys to make room for DD and Cap. But Id have to add them in place of Dr Doom and Namor, All 4 are very important Marvel characters... but DD and Cap have maintained nonstop titles in their own names for 45 years now. Namor and Doom come and go as they please....

 

and then theres always AntMan we can get rid of!

 

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Bronty

Bronty

Posted
Posted
Well again I don't view it as a true first appearance so how could it possibly be a top ten? "First SA" appearance is a big step down from first app., IMO

 

off the top of my head, and without really thinking about it, I would put all twelve of these ahead of av4.. I could probably think of a few more if I spent more time on it.

 

av1

xmen1

ST110

ff1

ff4 (also a 'first sa' app but I would give it the nod for being a much earlier book in a much more important title)

ff5

AF15

asm1

TOS39

TTA 27

JIM 83

Hulk 1

 

 

Totall agree. I would also add DD #1 before AV #4 and #1.

 

agree 100%

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Bronty

Bronty

Posted
Posted
Well again I don't view it as a true first appearance so how could it possibly be a top ten? "First SA" appearance is a big step down from first app., IMO

 

off the top of my head, and without really thinking about it, I would put all twelve of these ahead of av4.. I could probably think of a few more if I spent more time on it.

 

av1

xmen1

ST110

ff1

ff4 (also a 'first sa' app but I would give it the nod for being a much earlier book in a much more important title)

ff5

AF15

asm1

TOS39

TTA 27

JIM 83

Hulk 1

 

 

and then theres always AntMan we can get rid of!

 

yeah antman is debatable I agree ;) Although I would say ASM3 and ASM14 are also debatably as important

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Aman619

Aman619

Posted
Posted

dont heroes go before villains? First tier heroes at least?

 

In DC, Action 23, First Luthor is a great book, but its the first appearances of the heroes that are the Mega keys.. Then Supes 1 and Bat 1 -- which is confusing since its a #1 and a double villain first appearance. WHich aspect is the major reason Bat 1 is such a key?

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Guardian Comics

Guardian Comics

Posted
Posted

Bronty: I can't quote you because I'm on my phone but you do realize the entire concept of a "Silver Age" is based on the foundation of a popular Golden Age character getting a reboot and new life in a new era, don't ya :baiting::)

 

Jim

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LordRahl

LordRahl

Posted
Posted
Well again I don't view it as a true first appearance so how could it possibly be a top ten? "First SA" appearance is a big step down from first app., IMO

 

off the top of my head, and without really thinking about it, I would put all twelve of these ahead of av4.. I could probably think of a few more if I spent more time on it.

 

av1

xmen1

ST110

ff1

ff4 (also a 'first sa' app but I would give it the nod for being a much earlier book in a much more important title)

ff5

AF15

asm1

TOS39

TTA 27

JIM 83

Hulk 1

 

 

I think once you get past the first 5 or 6 mega keys, the rest of the top 10 are debatable. IMO, Avengers 4 is more important than FF 4 and 5, TTA 27 and ST 110. Cap is a much bigger name and has sustained his own title for far longer than the rest. It may not be a "true" first appearance but if that's your rationale how does FF 4 rate in the top 10 when Subby is a second rate hero relative to Cap?

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jimjum12

jimjum12

Posted
Posted
Well again I don't view it as a true first appearance so how could it possibly be a top ten? "First SA" appearance is a big step down from first app., IMO

 

off the top of my head, and without really thinking about it, I would put all twelve of these ahead of av4.. I could probably think of a few more if I spent more time on it.

 

av1

xmen1

ST110

ff1

ff4 (also a 'first sa' app but I would give it the nod for being a much earlier book in a much more important title)

ff5

AF15

asm1

TOS39

TTA 27

JIM 83

Hulk 1

 

 

I think once you get past the first 5 or 6 mega keys, the rest of the top 10 are debatable. IMO, Avengers 4 is more important than FF 4 and 5, TTA 27 and ST 110. Cap is a much bigger name and has sustained his own title for far longer than the rest. It may not be a "true" first appearance but if that's your rationale how does FF 4 rate in the top 10 when Subby is a second rate hero relative to Cap?

 

As far as DD 1 goes....I certainly feel it belongs in the top 10, particularly if significance is the factor and not value. It reminds me a lot of Avengers 4 as far as growth potential. I would certainly place DD 1 and Avengers 4 before both TTA 27 and FF 4....although I'm not sure what to do with FF 5, as Doom has been something of an anti-hero for a long time now....and is certainly on a LOT of want lists.GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

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Bronty

Bronty

Posted
Posted
dont heroes go before villains? First tier heroes at least?

 

In DC, Action 23, First Luthor is a great book, but its the first appearances of the heroes that are the Mega keys.. Then Supes 1 and Bat 1 -- which is confusing since its a #1 and a double villain first appearance. WHich aspect is the major reason Bat 1 is such a key?

 

Action 23 is not the comparable. "First SA Luthor" is the comparable if you are going to debate the importance of heroes and villains

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