PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[seanfingh]

I wouldn't do 7 days under any circumstances. it is not objectively reasonable. The thing I like about the 30 days is that there is no excuse. There is virtually no reasonable way for a 30 day uncommunicated delay to occur. Since the PL involves a myriad different factual scenarios the rules need to be fairly broad to be useful. Anyone can pick holes in anything. The best thing about these rules is their utility. The more specific and restrictive they are, the less useful they will be.

 

To answer your question, if I were doing what you are doing, I would try to get the version that I thought was best in place, not necessarily using a consensus. Thus it is great that I am not doing it.

[Snake Eyes]

Quick question Pov,

 

Is the intent still to eventually have a poll on these rules or will they be implemented for a trial period once the suggestions die down to a dull roar?

 

 

[Bomber-Bob]

I've done some research and the Fair Trade Act specifies this in regard to disputing a charge:

 

send your letter so that it reaches the creditor within 60 days after the first bill containing the error was mailed to you.

 

So it sounds like we are still covered after a 30 day wait.

 

The relevant page is here:

 

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/credit/cre16.shtm

 

I appreciate this is United States law.

 

Pov, you really did your homework on this. Good stuff, good to know.

I checked with Paypal about disputing a charge (if you didn't use CC) and you have 45 days to initiate from the payment date.

Checks may be a bit trickier. I just don't know how long a Bank will allow you to initiate a stop payment. I believe each Bank has their own policies. They usually bend a little for Fraud. Even Bank Cashier's checks can be stopped after the check is deposited if there is fraud involved. However, 30 days may be too late.

Not trying to cause trouble, just saying.

[Snake Eyes]

I wouldn't do 7 days under any circumstances. it is not objectively reasonable. The thing I like about the 30 days is that there is no excuse. There is virtually no reasonable way for a 30 day uncommunicated delay to occur. Since the PL involves a myriad different factual scenarios the rules need to be fairly broad to be useful. Anyone can pick holes in anything. The best thing about these rules is their utility. The more specific and restrictive they are, the less useful they will be.

 

 

Complete agreement with this Sean In essence, I am a fan of giving folks enough rope to have earned a spot on the probation list and then making it difficult to remove themselves. I think the 7/7 rule would make for a lot of rotation/turnover and ultimately dillute the value of the PL.

 

Along the same lines, thanks to Pov for researching chargebacks. I simply took it for granted I was still protected, but neglected to do the actual legwork. Nice to know that is definitely the case (thumbs u

[PovertyRow]

Quick question Pov,

 

Is the intent still to eventually have a poll on these rules or will they be implemented for a trial period once the suggestions die down to a dull roar?

 

 

Heath, the intent is definitely to have a poll.

 

 

Edited July 9, 2011 by Povertyrow

[Snake Eyes]

(thumbs u

 

Looking forward to it...when we get to that point I will cross post threads in a couple of other areas (general, gold, etc.) to try to get a good turnout

[PovertyRow]

Checks may be a bit trickier. I just don't know how long a Bank will allow you to initiate a stop payment. I believe each Bank has their own policies. They usually bend a little for Fraud. Even Bank Cashier's checks can be stopped after the check is deposited if there is fraud involved. However, 30 days may be too late.

Not trying to cause trouble, just saying.

 

I did some research on that as well. Once the check is cashed you cannot put a stop payment on it.

 

The Uniform Commercial Code states that a stop payment can be good for 6 months. It then must be renewed, however.

You send someone a check and they sent you a brick,

You issue a stop payment (which has variable fees amoung banks) and it is valid for 6 months.

The scammer waits say 7 months. Then cashes the check.

Unless you have renewed the stop payment order (or have closed the account) your are screwed.

 

Again this is for the US. The concept of not being able to issue a stop payment after it has been cleared is probably international. The 6 month aspect I don;t know. Citizens of other countries may want to look into the laws applying to them.

 

 

[Bosco685]

Checks may be a bit trickier. I just don't know how long a Bank will allow you to initiate a stop payment. I believe each Bank has their own policies. They usually bend a little for Fraud. Even Bank Cashier's checks can be stopped after the check is deposited if there is fraud involved. However, 30 days may be too late.

Not trying to cause trouble, just saying.

 

I did some research on that as well. Once the check is cashed you cannot put a stop payment on it.

 

The Uniform Commercial Code states that a stop payment can be good for 6 months. It then must be renewed, however.

 

So you send someone a check and they sent you a brick,

You issue a stop payment (which has variable fees amoung banks) and it is valid for 6 months.

The scammer waits say 7 months. Then cashes the check.

Unless you have renewed the stop payment order (or have closed the account) your are screwed.

 

Now that I had never heard before. Thanks for the scary education.

 

 

But I guess someone would find out about the stop payment if they tried to cash the check and it was processed by their bank. You couldn't get that back and try it again, as it would be stamped.

 

Someone would have had to tell you, "Haa Haa - I put a stop payment into my bank. Tough luck!"

[seanfingh]

Quick question Pov,

 

Is the intent still to eventually have a poll on these rules or will they be implemented for a trial period once the suggestions die down to a dull roar?

 

 

Heath, the intent is definitely to have a poll.

 

I know some may thiink a consensus is of no value and would just push what they prefer, but I don't.

 

FU POV. You asked me a specific question and I gave you the courtesy of a specific answer. Don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say. You can right off. I can honestly say I have never been more pissed in five years of being on here. And you of all people. That's what I get for answering your question honestly?

 

Edited July 9, 2011 by seanfingh

[PovertyRow]

Quick question Pov,

 

Is the intent still to eventually have a poll on these rules or will they be implemented for a trial period once the suggestions die down to a dull roar?

 

 

Heath, the intent is definitely to have a poll.

 

I know some may thiink a consensus is of no value and would just push what they prefer, but I don't.

 

FU POV. You asked me a specific question and I gave you the courtesy of a specific answer. Don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say. You can right off. I can honestly say I have never been more pissed in five years of being on here. And you of all people. That's what I get for answering your question honestly?

 

Actually Sean I thought better of that and went back and deleted that comment a few minutes before you posted.. I even left the "edited" part intact as kind of a time stamp. I felt it was unfair and unkind to say it and served no good purpose.

 

Also, please note the 30 Day rule remains intact on the Rules list and judging from the negative responses to lowering it, it should remain.

Edited July 9, 2011 by Povertyrow

[Bosco685]

Pov, you really did your homework on this. Good stuff, good to know.

I checked with Paypal about disputing a charge (if you didn't use CC) and you have 45 days to initiate from the payment date.

Checks may be a bit trickier. I just don't know how long a Bank will allow you to initiate a stop payment. I believe each Bank has their own policies. They usually bend a little for Fraud. Even Bank Cashier's checks can be stopped after the check is deposited if there is fraud involved. However, 30 days may be too late.

Not trying to cause trouble, just saying.

 

Due to credit card association (MC, VISA, AMEX, Discover) rules to handle chargebacks within a reasonable time, I believe they took this down to 45-60 days. They set the rules for credit card funding/fees/chargebacks - not the banks. Even card-issuing banks have to follow association rules to be qualified to offer each card.

 

It's a fun little industry to work in.

[seanfingh]

well POV I have always thought you were great. It would have been of great benefit to me if I had never seen it.

[PovertyRow]

well POV I have always thought you were great. It would have been of great benefit to me if I had never seen it.

 

Well I always enjoyed your presence here as well. But I felt like you called me Draconian and painted me as someone sticking things in other people's orifices.

 

Let's call it even? (see, I am soliciting your opinion on that!) (that was a joke).

Edited July 9, 2011 by Povertyrow

[PovertyRow]

Pov, you really did your homework on this. Good stuff, good to know.

I checked with Paypal about disputing a charge (if you didn't use CC) and you have 45 days to initiate from the payment date.

Checks may be a bit trickier. I just don't know how long a Bank will allow you to initiate a stop payment. I believe each Bank has their own policies. They usually bend a little for Fraud. Even Bank Cashier's checks can be stopped after the check is deposited if there is fraud involved. However, 30 days may be too late.

Not trying to cause trouble, just saying.

 

Due to credit card association (MC, VISA, AMEX, Discover) rules to handle chargebacks within a reasonable time, I believe they took this down to 45-60 days. They set the rules for credit card funding/fees/chargebacks - not the banks. Even card-issuing banks have to follow association rules to be qualified to offer each card.

 

It's a fun little industry to work in.

 

I think even if it was at 45 days that allows sufficient time to file a chargeback with the 30 Day Rule intact.

[Bosco685]

Pov, you really did your homework on this. Good stuff, good to know.

I checked with Paypal about disputing a charge (if you didn't use CC) and you have 45 days to initiate from the payment date.

Checks may be a bit trickier. I just don't know how long a Bank will allow you to initiate a stop payment. I believe each Bank has their own policies. They usually bend a little for Fraud. Even Bank Cashier's checks can be stopped after the check is deposited if there is fraud involved. However, 30 days may be too late.

Not trying to cause trouble, just saying.

 

Due to credit card association (MC, VISA, AMEX, Discover) rules to handle chargebacks within a reasonable time, I believe they took this down to 45-60 days. They set the rules for credit card funding/fees/chargebacks - not the banks. Even card-issuing banks have to follow association rules to be qualified to offer each card.

 

It's a fun little industry to work in.

 

I think even if it was at 45 days that allows sufficient time to file a chargeback with the 30 Day Rule intact.

 

I agree!

 

I'm reading through Visa's spring release compliance letter now to see if they changed the timing. Most times, the associations follow each other's lead when it comes to chargebacks.

[Bosco685]

I'll read through Visa's letter more over the weekend when I have time, but looks like 45 days keeps coming up.

 

[seanfingh]

well POV I have always thought you were great. It would have been of great benefit to me if I had never seen it.

 

Well I always enjoyed your presence here as well. But I felt like you called me Draconian and painted me as someone sticking things in other people's orifices.

 

Let's call it even? (see, I am soliciting your opinion on that!) (that was a joke).

 

That wasn't my intention at all. I am very blunt and I was trying to discuss the ideas, bluntly, and didn't really think about how the purveyor of the idea might take that bluntness. It was never my intention to make you feel personally attacked. I got low scores in empathy the last time I took a Meyers-Briggs test. Sorry for the misunderstanding and thanks for the PMs.

[PovertyRow]

well POV I have always thought you were great. It would have been of great benefit to me if I had never seen it.

 

Well I always enjoyed your presence here as well. But I felt like you called me Draconian and painted me as someone sticking things in other people's orifices.

 

Let's call it even? (see, I am soliciting your opinion on that!) (that was a joke).

 

That wasn't my intention at all. I am very blunt and I was trying to discuss the ideas, bluntly, and didn't really think about how the purveyor of the idea might take that bluntness. It was never my intention to make you feel personally attacked. I got low scores in empathy the last time I took a Meyers-Briggs test. Sorry for the misunderstanding and thanks for the PMs.

 

Cool! (thumbs u

[PovertyRow]

Bosco, I am not a banker or very convesant in financialese. But take

 

"Additional Information Available to Remedy the Chargeback - 45 Days"

 

That SOUNDS like an extra 45 days to obtain additional information? If so, would that start being counted after the initial dispute was filed?

 

Not saying that si what it is. Trying to understand some of these.

 

Is there anything that states how long after a charge is made to the account an initial dispute can be made?

 

Maybe that is there but I am just not understanding the jargon.

[Bosco685]

Trust me - I'll be reading through the Visa chargeback procedures.