PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 20 20

[mschmidt]

You sell a book, don't disclose the tape, buyer is unhappy, you take it back for a full refund.

 

End of story.

 

 

Buyer commits to a book sight unseen willingly, tape is consistent with the grade (and extremely small), buyer never mentions that his :take it: is contingent on personal tape pet peeve, you turn down 4 other buyers because buyer took them sight unseen, you also sell buyer a book under-graded by 1/2 to full point grade in the same deal....do you still take it back even though it fits the grade, buyer willingly took it without contingency, and is getting the better end of the grading on the other book?

 

 

Yes.

 

Heck, even if the tape wasn't there and the buyer still wanted to return the book, I'd take it back in a heartbeat.

[jsilverjanet]

I think if anything this discussion (sorry I haven't read all1800 posts prior to mine) has shown is that a return policy should probably be disclosed in sales threads

 

As for the mention of buying without scans. Gambit did provide scans before I sent my payment. I would not send money without seeing what I was buying however those pics were sent via PM. I can't compare them to mine as they have since been deleted.

 

 

[comix4fun]

You sell a book, don't disclose the tape, buyer is unhappy, you take it back for a full refund.

 

End of story.

 

 

Buyer commits to a book sight unseen willingly, tape is consistent with the grade (and extremely small), buyer never mentions that his :take it: is contingent on personal tape pet peeve, you turn down 4 other buyers because buyer took them sight unseen, you also sell buyer a book under-graded by 1/2 to full point grade in the same deal....do you still take it back even though it fits the grade, buyer willingly took it without contingency, and is getting the better end of the grading on the other book?

 

 

Yes.

 

Heck, even if the tape wasn't there and the buyer still wanted to return the book, I'd take it back in a heartbeat.

 

 

 

Even if he tried to renege on the deal before having them in hand? And wanted to keep the undergraded copy? And if his reneging ruined your shot at selling the book to several other people that wanted it?

 

Would you have let him out of the deal two weeks after taking the book, before he received them at all, but after you had lost those other potential sales?

 

 

[Beige]

This seems like one of those situations where the more discussion it entails the worse everyone will end up looking.

 

I agree.

 

He doesn't know how to handle or conduct himself, (no matter how he sounds in this thread, or switches things up) I think its obvious what he wanted all along (to get out of the deal because prices dropped and he couldn't re flip or whatever) And I have no interest dealing with him again.

 

i'm not going to go back and forth with this and waste everyone else's time (as he has done with mines, and now all of yours)

 

Just some kind advice, be cautious when dealing with this guy.

 

You seem to be making a lot of accusations without presenting any facts. The only thing I said about you is that you failed to disclose the tape. That's it. You mentioned that I posted the book with tape on the PGM thread - not true

 

I did want out of the deal[/b] but when you said no, I said I understood and moved on.

 

You said I wanted a full refund - I did not, I said I wanted a refund for the one book

 

While I understand your frustration on the matter, and how strongly you feel that I'm trying to get out of the deal for whatever reason, you have to acknowledge that regardless of that I wouldn't have a leg to stand on if you hadn't sold me a book with tape on it that you failed to mention. You send me 2 books with no tape, we aren't having this conversation.

 

 

 

That's the key point right there.

[Ryan.]

You sell a book, don't disclose the tape, buyer is unhappy, you take it back for a full refund.

 

End of story.

 

 

Buyer commits to a book sight unseen willingly, tape is consistent with the grade (and extremely small), buyer never mentions that his :take it: is contingent on personal tape pet peeve, you turn down 4 other buyers because buyer took them sight unseen, you also sell buyer a book under-graded by 1/2 to full point grade in the same deal....do you still take it back even though it fits the grade, buyer willingly took it without contingency, and is getting the better end of the grading on the other book?

 

 

Yes.

 

Heck, even if the tape wasn't there and the buyer still wanted to return the book, I'd take it back in a heartbeat.

 

I agree in the abstract. What's gumming up the works is that the buyer wanted out of the deal before the check cleared.

[comix4fun]

You sell a book, don't disclose the tape, buyer is unhappy, you take it back for a full refund.

 

End of story.

 

 

Buyer commits to a book sight unseen willingly, tape is consistent with the grade (and extremely small), buyer never mentions that his :take it: is contingent on personal tape pet peeve, you turn down 4 other buyers because buyer took them sight unseen, you also sell buyer a book under-graded by 1/2 to full point grade in the same deal....do you still take it back even though it fits the grade, buyer willingly took it without contingency, and is getting the better end of the grading on the other book?

 

 

Yes.

 

Heck, even if the tape wasn't there and the buyer still wanted to return the book, I'd take it back in a heartbeat.

 

I agree in the abstract. What's gumming up the works is that the buyer wanted out of the deal before the check cleared.

 

 

I'd like to think there's a balance here where neither buyer nor seller is taken advantage of and that is fair to both of them.

 

All that lost opportunity to the seller on a book that fits the grade, and was included with an undergraded copy that the buyer is keeping, allows buyers to act on impulse without the slightest amount of risk and responsibility for their actions. They could thrill buy, cost a seller time, effort, and sales in the process and still retain the cream off of the deal while sticking the seller with the -end of the deal.

 

That doesn't feel equitable.

[mschmidt]

You sell a book, don't disclose the tape, buyer is unhappy, you take it back for a full refund.

 

End of story.

 

 

Buyer commits to a book sight unseen willingly, tape is consistent with the grade (and extremely small), buyer never mentions that his :take it: is contingent on personal tape pet peeve, you turn down 4 other buyers because buyer took them sight unseen, you also sell buyer a book under-graded by 1/2 to full point grade in the same deal....do you still take it back even though it fits the grade, buyer willingly took it without contingency, and is getting the better end of the grading on the other book?

 

 

Yes.

 

Heck, even if the tape wasn't there and the buyer still wanted to return the book, I'd take it back in a heartbeat.

 

 

 

Even if he tried to renege on the deal before having them in hand? And wanted to keep the undergraded copy? And if his reneging ruined your shot at selling the book to several other people that wanted it?

 

Would you have let him out of the deal two weeks after taking the book, before he received them at all, but after you had lost those other potential sales?

 

 

The buyer offered the seller $50 to be let out of the deal - I would have taken the cash, relisted the books & placed the buyer on my personal "do not sell to"-list.

 

I honestly don't care why a buyer wants to return a book - for anything I sell, either here or on eBay, I'll happily take the sold item back no questions asked. If I screwed up, I pay return shipping - if the buyer changed their mind, doesn't like the centering, doesn't think the slab is shiny enough, return shipping is on them.

 

People seem to think that their responsibility as a seller ends when the item is in the hands of the buyer - it doesn't. Taking returns & trying their best to make the buyer happy is part of the cost doing business - if they can't deal with that, perhaps they shouldn't be selling comic books.

[VintageComics]

You sell a book, don't disclose the tape, buyer is unhappy, you take it back for a full refund.

 

End of story.

 

 

Buyer commits to a book sight unseen willingly, tape is consistent with the grade (and extremely small), buyer never mentions that his :take it: is contingent on personal tape pet peeve, you turn down 4 other buyers because buyer took them sight unseen, you also sell buyer a book under-graded by 1/2 to full point grade in the same deal....do you still take it back even though it fits the grade, buyer willingly took it without contingency, and is getting the better end of the grading on the other book?

 

 

Yes.

 

Heck, even if the tape wasn't there and the buyer still wanted to return the book, I'd take it back in a heartbeat.

 

I agree in the abstract. What's gumming up the works is that the buyer wanted out of the deal before the check cleared.

 

 

I'd like to think there's a balance here where neither buyer nor seller is taken advantage of and that is fair to both of them.

 

All that lost opportunity to the seller on a book that fits the grade, and was included with an undergraded copy that the buyer is keeping, allows buyers to act on impulse without the slightest amount of risk and responsibility for their actions. They could thrill buy, cost a seller time, effort, and sales in the process and still retain the cream off of the deal while sticking the seller with the -end of the deal.

 

That doesn't feel equitable.

 

Yeah, this is the type of case where you might be caught on the wrong side of right as a seller.

 

I heard a story once where a guy bought a ton of books from a seller and made a killing on all of them (meaning multiples of his money) except one. The one book he didn't make a killing on he returned because the seller had missed some colour touch. It wasn't even an expensive book.

 

The buyer was emphatic: "You gotta take it back because it's restored." ignoring the fact that he'd made a killing on every other book.

 

The seller knew the buyer made a killing on the deal because he saw the books sell but took the book back anyway.

 

Which side did the "right" thing?

[jsilverjanet]

You sell a book, don't disclose the tape, buyer is unhappy, you take it back for a full refund.

 

End of story.

 

 

Buyer commits to a book sight unseen willingly, tape is consistent with the grade (and extremely small), buyer never mentions that his :take it: is contingent on personal tape pet peeve, you turn down 4 other buyers because buyer took them sight unseen, you also sell buyer a book under-graded by 1/2 to full point grade in the same deal....do you still take it back even though it fits the grade, buyer willingly took it without contingency, and is getting the better end of the grading on the other book?

 

 

Yes.

 

Heck, even if the tape wasn't there and the buyer still wanted to return the book, I'd take it back in a heartbeat.

 

I agree in the abstract. What's gumming up the works is that the buyer wanted out of the deal before the check cleared.

 

 

I'd like to think there's a balance here where neither buyer nor seller is taken advantage of and that is fair to both of them.

 

All that lost opportunity to the seller on a book that fits the grade, and was included with an undergraded copy that the buyer is keeping, allows buyers to act on impulse without the slightest amount of risk and responsibility for their actions. They could thrill buy, cost a seller time, effort, and sales in the process and still retain the cream off of the deal while sticking the seller with the -end of the deal.

 

That doesn't feel equitable.

 

I would return both books - I'm open to whatever works best for both of us. I was under the impression seller didn't want any returns period so I thought keeping one was the better option for him but if he want's both back then I'm ok with it.

[comix4fun]

You sell a book, don't disclose the tape, buyer is unhappy, you take it back for a full refund.

 

End of story.

 

 

Buyer commits to a book sight unseen willingly, tape is consistent with the grade (and extremely small), buyer never mentions that his :take it: is contingent on personal tape pet peeve, you turn down 4 other buyers because buyer took them sight unseen, you also sell buyer a book under-graded by 1/2 to full point grade in the same deal....do you still take it back even though it fits the grade, buyer willingly took it without contingency, and is getting the better end of the grading on the other book?

 

 

Yes.

 

Heck, even if the tape wasn't there and the buyer still wanted to return the book, I'd take it back in a heartbeat.

 

 

 

Even if he tried to renege on the deal before having them in hand? And wanted to keep the undergraded copy? And if his reneging ruined your shot at selling the book to several other people that wanted it?

 

Would you have let him out of the deal two weeks after taking the book, before he received them at all, but after you had lost those other potential sales?

 

 

The buyer offered the seller $50 to be let out of the deal - I would have taken the cash, relisted the books & placed the buyer on my personal "do not sell to"-list.

 

I honestly don't care why a buyer wants to return a book - for anything I sell, either here or on eBay, I'll happily take the sold item back no questions asked. If I screwed up, I pay return shipping - if the buyer changed their mind, doesn't like the centering, doesn't think the slab is shiny enough, return shipping is on them.

 

People seem to think that their responsibility as a seller ends when the item is in the hands of the buyer - it doesn't. Taking returns & trying their best to make the buyer happy is part of the cost doing business - if they can't deal with that, perhaps they shouldn't be selling comic books.

 

 

Speaking generally now and not about this transaction, as I agree I would have probably taken the $50 and moved on:

 

It's admirable that you try that hard to make them happy. There are people that will abuse that every chance they get.

 

I have an acute sense of when someone is trying to game me or take advantage of me. Making a buyer happy ends at whenever whatever is reasonable ends.

 

Why should you have to take a real, tangible, loss because a buyer doesn't feel like accepting even the slightest bit of adult responsibility for a transaction they entered into willingly and intentionally?

 

Being a seller, to me, doesn't mean end over and take whatever a buyer wants to do to me. If they have a change of life philosophy after buying my book and I've performed on everything I've promised then their lack of desire to keep that book is on them, not me.

 

I wish them well in their journey to enlightenment and point them to the Ebay Seller's page where they can dispose of their worldly goods no longer of use to them.

[jsilverjanet]

This seems like one of those situations where the more discussion it entails the worse everyone will end up looking.

 

I agree.

 

He doesn't know how to handle or conduct himself, (no matter how he sounds in this thread, or switches things up) I think its obvious what he wanted all along (to get out of the deal because prices dropped and he couldn't re flip or whatever) And I have no interest dealing with him again.

 

i'm not going to go back and forth with this and waste everyone else's time (as he has done with mines, and now all of yours)

 

Just some kind advice, be cautious when dealing with this guy.

 

You seem to be making a lot of accusations without presenting any facts. The only thing I said about you is that you failed to disclose the tape. That's it. You mentioned that I posted the book with tape on the PGM thread - not true

 

I did want out of the deal[/b] but when you said no, I said I understood and moved on.

 

You said I wanted a full refund - I did not, I said I wanted a refund for the one book

 

While I understand your frustration on the matter, and how strongly you feel that I'm trying to get out of the deal for whatever reason, you have to acknowledge that regardless of that I wouldn't have a leg to stand on if you hadn't sold me a book with tape on it that you failed to mention. You send me 2 books with no tape, we aren't having this conversation.

 

 

 

That's the key point right there.

 

to be fair if you are going to highlight that key point - you should also highlight the fact that I was sent a book that had tape that the seller publicly acknowledged he wasn't aware of. The fact that this thread discussion has equal people taking up each point should make it clear it's not a black and white issue but very grey.

 

 

[comix4fun]

You sell a book, don't disclose the tape, buyer is unhappy, you take it back for a full refund.

 

End of story.

 

 

Buyer commits to a book sight unseen willingly, tape is consistent with the grade (and extremely small), buyer never mentions that his :take it: is contingent on personal tape pet peeve, you turn down 4 other buyers because buyer took them sight unseen, you also sell buyer a book under-graded by 1/2 to full point grade in the same deal....do you still take it back even though it fits the grade, buyer willingly took it without contingency, and is getting the better end of the grading on the other book?

 

 

Yes.

 

Heck, even if the tape wasn't there and the buyer still wanted to return the book, I'd take it back in a heartbeat.

 

I agree in the abstract. What's gumming up the works is that the buyer wanted out of the deal before the check cleared.

 

 

I'd like to think there's a balance here where neither buyer nor seller is taken advantage of and that is fair to both of them.

 

All that lost opportunity to the seller on a book that fits the grade, and was included with an undergraded copy that the buyer is keeping, allows buyers to act on impulse without the slightest amount of risk and responsibility for their actions. They could thrill buy, cost a seller time, effort, and sales in the process and still retain the cream off of the deal while sticking the seller with the -end of the deal.

 

That doesn't feel equitable.

 

Yeah, this is the type of case where you might be caught on the wrong side of right as a seller.

 

I heard a story once where a guy bought a ton of books from a seller and made a killing on all of them (meaning multiples of his money) except one. The one book he didn't make a killing on he returned because the seller had missed some colour touch. It wasn't even an expensive book.

 

The buyer was emphatic: "You gotta take it back because it's restored." ignoring the fact that he'd made a killing on every other book.

 

The seller knew the buyer made a killing on the deal because he saw the books sell but took the book back anyway.

 

Which side did the "right" thing?

 

 

You've got to stand behind your products. In the case the book is still a vg/f. In your example it's color touch which is a horse of a different color.

 

[comix4fun]

You sell a book, don't disclose the tape, buyer is unhappy, you take it back for a full refund.

 

End of story.

 

 

Buyer commits to a book sight unseen willingly, tape is consistent with the grade (and extremely small), buyer never mentions that his :take it: is contingent on personal tape pet peeve, you turn down 4 other buyers because buyer took them sight unseen, you also sell buyer a book under-graded by 1/2 to full point grade in the same deal....do you still take it back even though it fits the grade, buyer willingly took it without contingency, and is getting the better end of the grading on the other book?

 

 

Yes.

 

Heck, even if the tape wasn't there and the buyer still wanted to return the book, I'd take it back in a heartbeat.

 

I agree in the abstract. What's gumming up the works is that the buyer wanted out of the deal before the check cleared.

 

 

I'd like to think there's a balance here where neither buyer nor seller is taken advantage of and that is fair to both of them.

 

All that lost opportunity to the seller on a book that fits the grade, and was included with an undergraded copy that the buyer is keeping, allows buyers to act on impulse without the slightest amount of risk and responsibility for their actions. They could thrill buy, cost a seller time, effort, and sales in the process and still retain the cream off of the deal while sticking the seller with the -end of the deal.

 

That doesn't feel equitable.

 

I would return both books - I'm open to whatever works best for both of us. I was under the impression seller didn't want any returns period so I thought keeping one was the better option for him but if he want's both back then I'm ok with it.

 

 

Which would result in the total loss of the entire sale, and the loss of several other buyers for the same books.

 

[VintageComics]

You've got to stand behind your products. In the case the book is still a vg/f. In your example it's color touch which is a horse of a different color.

 

While I understand the difference, I personally wouldn't try to return a $100 book if I'd made multiple bank on a 4 figure deal.

 

I'm not saying that's what happened here, but I'm trying to show that fair in the legal sense (an obligation to take something back because an item was misrepresented) is not necessarily fair in the bigger picture (if someone makes a killing on everything else and just returns the one item).

 

If these guys can work through the grey area that's a good thing, but it only happens if both sides want to be equitable. Sounds like they are.

 

 

 

 

[jsilverjanet]

I personally don't agree with the "customer is always right" because I've experience as I'm sure many of you have also that it's not always true. However as a seller I try my best to CMA, which I think we all do i.e. undergrade for example. That being said, the question I have for some of you is aka the question the jury needs to ask themselves

 

if you purchased a book, that you did get scans for, that the seller said was vg/f and you received the book and found tape and a tear on the bottom staple, would you feel you the seller needed to correct the situation even though no refund policy was stated/agreed to or would you chalk it up to "lesson learned"

 

Also I'll add the book was over $200 (because I know there's a difference between a purchase of a $10 book and a $200 book)

 

the rest of the transaction is noise between me/Gambit. I get why he's refusing to refund me. That's understandable and I see those who are making that a key point.

 

 

[comix4fun]

You've got to stand behind your products. In the case the book is still a vg/f. In your example it's color touch which is a horse of a different color.

 

While I understand the difference, I personally wouldn't try to return a $100 book if I'd made multiple bank on a 4 figure deal.

 

I'm not saying that's what happened here, but I'm trying to show that fair in the legal sense (an obligation to take something back because an item was misrepresented) is not necessarily fair in the bigger picture (if someone makes a killing on everything else and just returns the one item).

 

If these guys can work through the grey area that's a good thing, but it only happens if both sides want to be equitable. Sounds like they are.

 

 

 

If I missed CT I'd take it back too....but if I was a buyer and I made thousands on a deal there's no chance I send back a $100 book. Aside from being inequitable in totality of the deal it's also the best way to never get offered a great deal from that guy again.

[Jimmy Linguini]

if you purchased a book, that you did get scans for, that the seller said was vg/f and you received the book and found tape and a tear on the bottom staple, would you feel you the seller needed to correct the situation even though no refund policy was stated/agreed to or would you chalk it up to "lesson learned"

 

 

You sold a restored book and didn't disclose it was restored!

 

This isn't rocket science.

[jsilverjanet]

if you purchased a book, that you did get scans for, that the seller said was vg/f and you received the book and found tape and a tear on the bottom staple, would you feel you the seller needed to correct the situation even though no refund policy was stated/agreed to or would you chalk it up to "lesson learned"

 

 

You sold a restored book and didn't disclose it was restored!

 

This isn't rocket science.

 

I didn't sell the book, I brought it

[Boboset]

if you purchased a book, that you did get scans for, that the seller said was vg/f and you received the book and found tape and a tear on the bottom staple, would you feel you the seller needed to correct the situation even though no refund policy was stated/agreed to or would you chalk it up to "lesson learned"

 

 

You sold a restored book and didn't disclose it was restored!

 

This isn't rocket science.

 

Might as well be for you Jimmy. (thumbs u

[jsilverjanet]

Just to be clear - is your general policy not to offer returns for undisclosed tape, provided the book is at the stated grade?

 

I'm not asking whether you state this to buyers, just wondering whether you would take the same stance on an otherwise problem-free deal?

 

I wish Gambit would answer this question - It reminds me of the Seinfeld episode when he wants to return the jacket, when he's asked why he's returning it he says because of "spite", they say he can't accept it for that reason.