PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[revat]

I personally don't agree with the "customer is always right" because I've experience as I'm sure many of you have also that it's not always true. However as a seller I try my best to CMA, which I think we all do i.e. undergrade for example. That being said, the question I have for some of you is aka the question the jury needs to ask themselves

 

if you purchased a book, that you did get scans for, that the seller said was vg/f and you received the book and found tape and a tear on the bottom staple, would you feel you the seller needed to correct the situation even though no refund policy was stated/agreed to or would you chalk it up to "lesson learned"

 

Also I'll add the book was over $200 (because I know there's a difference between a purchase of a $10 book and a $200 book)

 

the rest of the transaction is noise between me/Gambit. I get why he's refusing to refund me. That's understandable and I see those who are making that a key point.

 

 

 

I think at this point there's enough 'reasonableness' from both points of view that it will be tough to get any type of consensus opinion here on the boards over what to do. Both people made errors, a lot of boardies are less sympathetic to buyers AND sellers who transact in raws (esp mid grade) w/o scans. Add in the new CGC grading rules, and you've got a big muddlefest, not to be confused with a cuddlefest.

 

So the verdict appears to be....please work it out yourselves....or don't.....but support to get on the PL probably won't be had....

 

Edited August 14, 2013 by Revat

[Ryan.]

if you purchased a book, that you did get scans for, that the seller said was vg/f and you received the book and found tape and a tear on the bottom staple, would you feel you the seller needed to correct the situation even though no refund policy was stated/agreed to or would you chalk it up to "lesson learned"

 

 

You sold a restored book and didn't disclose it was restored!

 

This isn't rocket science.

 

What?

[revat]

if you purchased a book, that you did get scans for, that the seller said was vg/f and you received the book and found tape and a tear on the bottom staple, would you feel you the seller needed to correct the situation even though no refund policy was stated/agreed to or would you chalk it up to "lesson learned"

 

 

You sold a restored book and didn't disclose it was restored!

 

This isn't rocket science.

 

What?

 

many people (although Not CGC) consider tape to be restoration.

[Dr. Balls]

You sell a book, don't disclose the tape, buyer is unhappy, you take it back for a full refund.

 

End of story.

 

 

Buyer commits to a book sight unseen willingly, tape is consistent with the grade (and extremely small), buyer never mentions that his :take it: is contingent on personal tape pet peeve, you turn down 4 other buyers because buyer took them sight unseen, you also sell buyer a book under-graded by 1/2 to full point grade in the same deal....do you still take it back even though it fits the grade, buyer willingly took it without contingency, and is getting the better end of the grading on the other book?

 

 

Yes.

 

Heck, even if the tape wasn't there and the buyer still wanted to return the book, I'd take it back in a heartbeat.

 

I agree in the abstract. What's gumming up the works is that the buyer wanted out of the deal before the check cleared.

 

 

I'd like to think there's a balance here where neither buyer nor seller is taken advantage of and that is fair to both of them.

 

All that lost opportunity to the seller on a book that fits the grade, and was included with an undergraded copy that the buyer is keeping, allows buyers to act on impulse without the slightest amount of risk and responsibility for their actions. They could thrill buy, cost a seller time, effort, and sales in the process and still retain the cream off of the deal while sticking the seller with the -end of the deal.

 

That doesn't feel equitable.

 

Yeah, this is the type of case where you might be caught on the wrong side of right as a seller.

 

I heard a story once where a guy bought a ton of books from a seller and made a killing on all of them (meaning multiples of his money) except one. The one book he didn't make a killing on he returned because the seller had missed some colour touch. It wasn't even an expensive book.

 

The buyer was emphatic: "You gotta take it back because it's restored." ignoring the fact that he'd made a killing on every other book.

 

The seller knew the buyer made a killing on the deal because he saw the books sell but took the book back anyway.

 

Which side did the "right" thing?

 

 

You've got to stand behind your products. In the case the book is still a vg/f. In your example it's color touch which is a horse of a different color.

 

I agree. But, does that extend to hype books? Buying a book for $100 and then wanting to give it back once it drops to $50 sounds like "buyer beware" territory - regardless of a small grading detail.

 

I'm not in either corner here - but there is definitely a difference between a book being sold based on FMV and a book being sold in the middle of a buyer's hype.

[revat]

if you purchased a book, that you did get scans for, that the seller said was vg/f and you received the book and found tape and a tear on the bottom staple, would you feel you the seller needed to correct the situation even though no refund policy was stated/agreed to or would you chalk it up to "lesson learned"

 

 

You sold a restored book and didn't disclose it was restored!

 

This isn't rocket science.

 

What?

 

 

many people (although Not CGC) consider tape to be restoration.

 

If you knowingly have something pressed and don't disclose it, people here get mad.

You'd think tape would generate just as much vitriol

[jsilverjanet]

I personally don't agree with the "customer is always right" because I've experience as I'm sure many of you have also that it's not always true. However as a seller I try my best to CMA, which I think we all do i.e. undergrade for example. That being said, the question I have for some of you is aka the question the jury needs to ask themselves

 

if you purchased a book, that you did get scans for, that the seller said was vg/f and you received the book and found tape and a tear on the bottom staple, would you feel you the seller needed to correct the situation even though no refund policy was stated/agreed to or would you chalk it up to "lesson learned"

 

Also I'll add the book was over $200 (because I know there's a difference between a purchase of a $10 book and a $200 book)

 

the rest of the transaction is noise between me/Gambit. I get why he's refusing to refund me. That's understandable and I see those who are making that a key point.

 

 

 

I think at this point there's enough 'reasonableness' from both points of view that it will be tough to get any type of consensus opinion here on the boards over what to do. Both people made errors, a lot of boardies are less sympathetic to buyers AND sellers who transact in raws (esp mid grade) w/o scans. Add in the new CGC grading rules, and you've got a big muddlefest, not to be confused with a cuddlefest.

 

So the verdict appears to be....please work it out yourselves....or don't.....but support to get on the PL probably won't be had....

 

Thanks everyone - I guess I'm not right but I'm not wrong and in the end that's ok.

verdict - lesson learned

 

Edited August 14, 2013 by jsilverjanet

[Ryan.]

if you purchased a book, that you did get scans for, that the seller said was vg/f and you received the book and found tape and a tear on the bottom staple, would you feel you the seller needed to correct the situation even though no refund policy was stated/agreed to or would you chalk it up to "lesson learned"

 

 

You sold a restored book and didn't disclose it was restored!

 

This isn't rocket science.

 

What?

 

 

many people (although Not CGC) consider tape to be restoration.

 

If you knowingly have something pressed and don't disclose it, people here get mad.

You'd think tape would generate just as much vitriol

 

It probably would in, again, the abstract but there was so much precursor leading up to this whole bubbling fued between buyer and seller that the tape is starting to look like a handy excuse for buyer's remorse.

 

[comix4fun]

You sell a book, don't disclose the tape, buyer is unhappy, you take it back for a full refund.

 

End of story.

 

 

Buyer commits to a book sight unseen willingly, tape is consistent with the grade (and extremely small), buyer never mentions that his :take it: is contingent on personal tape pet peeve, you turn down 4 other buyers because buyer took them sight unseen, you also sell buyer a book under-graded by 1/2 to full point grade in the same deal....do you still take it back even though it fits the grade, buyer willingly took it without contingency, and is getting the better end of the grading on the other book?

 

 

Yes.

 

Heck, even if the tape wasn't there and the buyer still wanted to return the book, I'd take it back in a heartbeat.

 

I agree in the abstract. What's gumming up the works is that the buyer wanted out of the deal before the check cleared.

 

 

I'd like to think there's a balance here where neither buyer nor seller is taken advantage of and that is fair to both of them.

 

All that lost opportunity to the seller on a book that fits the grade, and was included with an undergraded copy that the buyer is keeping, allows buyers to act on impulse without the slightest amount of risk and responsibility for their actions. They could thrill buy, cost a seller time, effort, and sales in the process and still retain the cream off of the deal while sticking the seller with the -end of the deal.

 

That doesn't feel equitable.

 

Yeah, this is the type of case where you might be caught on the wrong side of right as a seller.

 

I heard a story once where a guy bought a ton of books from a seller and made a killing on all of them (meaning multiples of his money) except one. The one book he didn't make a killing on he returned because the seller had missed some colour touch. It wasn't even an expensive book.

 

The buyer was emphatic: "You gotta take it back because it's restored." ignoring the fact that he'd made a killing on every other book.

 

The seller knew the buyer made a killing on the deal because he saw the books sell but took the book back anyway.

 

Which side did the "right" thing?

 

 

You've got to stand behind your products. In the case the book is still a vg/f. In your example it's color touch which is a horse of a different color.

 

I agree. But, does that extend to hype books? Buying a book for $100 and then wanting to give it back once it drops to $50 sounds like "buyer beware" territory - regardless of a small grading detail.

 

I'm not in either corner here - but there is definitely a difference between a book being sold based on FMV and a book being sold in the middle of a buyer's hype.

 

 

The elephant in the room is the perceived heat ( or lack thereof) of the books in question.

 

If the book was still going great guns and was trading at 30-50% above asking price would there still be a problem with the grade, with the piece of tape?

 

 

[mschmidt]

if you purchased a book, that you did get scans for, that the seller said was vg/f and you received the book and found tape and a tear on the bottom staple, would you feel you the seller needed to correct the situation even though no refund policy was stated/agreed to or would you chalk it up to "lesson learned"

 

 

You sold a restored book and didn't disclose it was restored!

 

This isn't rocket science.

 

What?

 

many people (although Not CGC) consider tape to be restoration.

 

Ryan was expressing bewilderment at JL's comment towards jsilverjanet - who is the buyer, not the seller in this transaction

[Ryan.]

I personally don't agree with the "customer is always right" because I've experience as I'm sure many of you have also that it's not always true. However as a seller I try my best to CMA, which I think we all do i.e. undergrade for example. That being said, the question I have for some of you is aka the question the jury needs to ask themselves

 

if you purchased a book, that you did get scans for, that the seller said was vg/f and you received the book and found tape and a tear on the bottom staple, would you feel you the seller needed to correct the situation even though no refund policy was stated/agreed to or would you chalk it up to "lesson learned"

 

Also I'll add the book was over $200 (because I know there's a difference between a purchase of a $10 book and a $200 book)

 

the rest of the transaction is noise between me/Gambit. I get why he's refusing to refund me. That's understandable and I see those who are making that a key point.

 

 

 

I think at this point there's enough 'reasonableness' from both points of view that it will be tough to get any type of consensus opinion here on the boards over what to do. Both people made errors, a lot of boardies are less sympathetic to buyers AND sellers who transact in raws (esp mid grade) w/o scans. Add in the new CGC grading rules, and you've got a big muddlefest, not to be confused with a cuddlefest.

 

So the verdict appears to be....please work it out yourselves....or don't.....but support to get on the PL probably won't be had....

 

Thanks everyone - I guess I'm not right but I'm not wrong and in the end that's ok.

verdict - lesson learned

 

Lessons learned:

1. Don't buy hype books

2. Don't buy books one cannot afford

[mschmidt]

I personally don't agree with the "customer is always right" because I've experience as I'm sure many of you have also that it's not always true. However as a seller I try my best to CMA, which I think we all do i.e. undergrade for example. That being said, the question I have for some of you is aka the question the jury needs to ask themselves

 

if you purchased a book, that you did get scans for, that the seller said was vg/f and you received the book and found tape and a tear on the bottom staple, would you feel you the seller needed to correct the situation even though no refund policy was stated/agreed to or would you chalk it up to "lesson learned"

 

Also I'll add the book was over $200 (because I know there's a difference between a purchase of a $10 book and a $200 book)

 

the rest of the transaction is noise between me/Gambit. I get why he's refusing to refund me. That's understandable and I see those who are making that a key point.

 

 

 

I think at this point there's enough 'reasonableness' from both points of view that it will be tough to get any type of consensus opinion here on the boards over what to do. Both people made errors, a lot of boardies are less sympathetic to buyers AND sellers who transact in raws (esp mid grade) w/o scans. Add in the new CGC grading rules, and you've got a big muddlefest, not to be confused with a cuddlefest.

 

So the verdict appears to be....please work it out yourselves....or don't.....but support to get on the PL probably won't be had....

 

Thanks everyone - I guess I'm not right but I'm not wrong and in the end that's ok.

verdict - lesson learned

 

Lessons learned:

1. Don't buy hype books

2. Don't buy books one cannot afford

 

3. Don't buy from sellers who sell books with undisclosed defects & have a "no returns accepted" policy :thumbsup:

[Jimmy Linguini]

if you purchased a book, that you did get scans for, that the seller said was vg/f and you received the book and found tape and a tear on the bottom staple, would you feel you the seller needed to correct the situation even though no refund policy was stated/agreed to or would you chalk it up to "lesson learned"

 

 

You sold a restored book and didn't disclose it was restored!

 

This isn't rocket science.

 

What?

 

many people (although Not CGC) consider tape to be restoration.

 

Ryan was expressing bewilderment at JL's comment towards jsilverjanet - who is the buyer, not the seller in this transaction

 

Sorry, everyone is up in arms and I got confused.

[VintageComics]

If I personally saw a "no returns policy" that would lead me to believe that the seller wants to cover themselves in case they missed something. I would buy accordingly AND assume that if I found something they missed, I'd have to eat it. It's that simple to me. That's just me personally.

 

I think buyer beware is in full strength here because the caveat was the "no returns".

 

I also think conversations like this help the forum by teaching sellers to have better selling policies in their listings to eliminate grey area.

 

 

[comix4fun]

I personally don't agree with the "customer is always right" because I've experience as I'm sure many of you have also that it's not always true. However as a seller I try my best to CMA, which I think we all do i.e. undergrade for example. That being said, the question I have for some of you is aka the question the jury needs to ask themselves

 

if you purchased a book, that you did get scans for, that the seller said was vg/f and you received the book and found tape and a tear on the bottom staple, would you feel you the seller needed to correct the situation even though no refund policy was stated/agreed to or would you chalk it up to "lesson learned"

 

Also I'll add the book was over $200 (because I know there's a difference between a purchase of a $10 book and a $200 book)

 

the rest of the transaction is noise between me/Gambit. I get why he's refusing to refund me. That's understandable and I see those who are making that a key point.

 

 

 

I think at this point there's enough 'reasonableness' from both points of view that it will be tough to get any type of consensus opinion here on the boards over what to do. Both people made errors, a lot of boardies are less sympathetic to buyers AND sellers who transact in raws (esp mid grade) w/o scans. Add in the new CGC grading rules, and you've got a big muddlefest, not to be confused with a cuddlefest.

 

So the verdict appears to be....please work it out yourselves....or don't.....but support to get on the PL probably won't be had....

 

Thanks everyone - I guess I'm not right but I'm not wrong and in the end that's ok.

verdict - lesson learned

 

Lessons learned:

1. Don't buy hype books

2. Don't buy books one cannot afford

 

3. Don't buy from sellers who sell books with undisclosed defects & have a "no returns accepted" policy :thumbsup:

 

Especially with no scans before you commit.

 

Thinking about it, I think their communications after the initial commitment have colored everything that's occurred hence.

 

If this were a deal between you and I, I would accept any return on anything no matter what. We know each other well enough that we can trust the other.

 

These people don't know each other. All they have to go on is 1) immediate buyer's remorse, 2) admission of "hype buying, followed up by attempts to return.

 

I can see both sides of this, but I think that their limited experience with each other is the biggest impediment to trust and resolution.

[N/A]

If a seller misses something then they did not sell me what they claimed. I don't believe in a no return policy. It shouldn't justify lazy sellers.

[Dr. Balls]

If I personally saw a "no returns policy" that would lead me to believe that the seller wants to cover themselves in case they missed something. I would buy accordingly AND assume that if I found something they missed, I'd have to eat it. It's that simple to me. That's just me personally.

 

I think buyer beware is in full strength here because the caveat was the "no returns".

 

I also think conversations like this help the forum by teaching sellers to have better selling policies in their listings to eliminate grey area.

 

 

That's what I get out of these PL conversations. And I'm trying to devine what to get out of this current situation.

 

What if it's like a retail situation - where if you buy an item and take it back, and the item has since gone on sale - you are entitled to a refund in the amount of the sale price.

 

If an Avengers #55 graded at VG/FN went for $100 a month ago, but now goes for $75 (I don't know the prices, I'm just guessing) - should the seller refund the buyer of the current going rate?

 

I think the seller should stand behind his product, but I also think it's unfair that he have to be over a barrel on hype book - after all, part of this hobby is based on selling books based on hype - it comes with the territory to buyers and sellers.

[Ryan.]

What if it's like a retail situation - where if you buy an item and take it back, and the item has since gone on sale - you are entitled to a refund in the amount of the sale price.

 

I've experienced both situations. Some stores refund the purchase price regardless and some refund only what the current price is.

[jsilverjanet]

interesting - hadn't thought about it that way. I guess I'm open to whatever Gambit thinks. If he thinks the book is worth $ now, and is willing to fix the situation by return $ amount and if I agree to then cool. If we can't come to a agreed $ amount then - oh well.

 

 

also it's been mentioned a few times - don't buy books you can't afford, not to nitpick but I paid for the book along with the others and purchased more since then and sold a lot in between. I did pay for the book. Seller got all his money. Situations do come up. I see it all the times on the boards, people selling because they purchased more books or upgraded. I want to be clear - any book I've taken on these boards has been paid for in full. While my kudos may not be the extent of everyone commenting here there are many who have made comments that have dealt with me before and until now any issues have been resolved.

 

Want to be sure that everyone knows I don't break my word.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2013 by jsilverjanet

[mschmidt]

I personally don't agree with the "customer is always right" because I've experience as I'm sure many of you have also that it's not always true. However as a seller I try my best to CMA, which I think we all do i.e. undergrade for example. That being said, the question I have for some of you is aka the question the jury needs to ask themselves

 

if you purchased a book, that you did get scans for, that the seller said was vg/f and you received the book and found tape and a tear on the bottom staple, would you feel you the seller needed to correct the situation even though no refund policy was stated/agreed to or would you chalk it up to "lesson learned"

 

Also I'll add the book was over $200 (because I know there's a difference between a purchase of a $10 book and a $200 book)

 

the rest of the transaction is noise between me/Gambit. I get why he's refusing to refund me. That's understandable and I see those who are making that a key point.

 

 

 

I think at this point there's enough 'reasonableness' from both points of view that it will be tough to get any type of consensus opinion here on the boards over what to do. Both people made errors, a lot of boardies are less sympathetic to buyers AND sellers who transact in raws (esp mid grade) w/o scans. Add in the new CGC grading rules, and you've got a big muddlefest, not to be confused with a cuddlefest.

 

So the verdict appears to be....please work it out yourselves....or don't.....but support to get on the PL probably won't be had....

 

Thanks everyone - I guess I'm not right but I'm not wrong and in the end that's ok.

verdict - lesson learned

 

Lessons learned:

1. Don't buy hype books

2. Don't buy books one cannot afford

 

3. Don't buy from sellers who sell books with undisclosed defects & have a "no returns accepted" policy :thumbsup:

 

Especially with no scans before you commit.

 

Thinking about it, I think their communications after the initial commitment have colored everything that's occurred hence.

 

If this were a deal between you and I, I would accept any return on anything no matter what. We know each other well enough that we can trust the other.

 

These people don't know each other. All they have to go on is 1) immediate buyer's remorse, 2) admission of "hype buying, followed up by attempts to return.

 

I can see both sides of this, but I think that their limited experience with each other is the biggest impediment to trust and resolution.

 

But ... the buyer has mentioned several times that they did ask for - and received - scans of the books prior to actually buying them. And that the tape wasn't shown in the scans :shrug:

[Dr. Balls]

If a seller misses something then they did not sell me what they claimed. I don't believe in a no return policy. It shouldn't justify lazy sellers.

 

I can't speak for Gambit, but this situation seems more about selling a $XXX book and while it's dropped in value, the buyer want's his original $XXX back, even though it's not worth $XXX, it's worth less.

 

The tape issues just seems to be a convenient noose to hang the seller with. Tape is not going to affect a VG grade, as it's part of the flaws within that grading criteria. Tape would not deter the sale of a VG graded book. It may discourage some buyers, but there would be plenty that could care less - so it's not like it's been completely devalued.

 

The seller got himself in a twist by selling books without scans and accidentaly overgrading the book by missing an inside flaw - which can happen to anyone, myself included. This is not a NM book with tape. It's slightly overgraded and it's being blown out of proportion for the sake of doing so.

 

In a perfect world, it'd be great to see a partial refund given for a slight overgrade and be done with it, with heavy learning lessons around.