PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[crassus]

I am very surprised to see a discussion about a time limit when there was an agreed time limit in this thread some time ago. There was actually a refusal to add someone to the list because the transaction was more than 6 months prior. Strange.

 

I understand a seller having product knowledge, which is why I only sell moderns, but I also expect to have product knowledge as a buyer and from my buyers.

 

I bought an UXM 94 that CGC discovered had colour touch. I requested a refund for the book and walked them through who CGC was. Grading fees were on me. the seller claimed it was an OO book from his personal collection bought off the rack. Obviously a discrepancy.

 

Rupp's request is completely stand up and Mike, who can be very nervous, should quickly apologize and give the man his $60 but it is not PL worthy. What did the sales thread claim about the book? Assuming you are buying an unrestored book is just that, an assumption.

 

I really don't understand why every seller doesn't take returns for any reason and I deal with the volatile moderns market. A buyer having a book for a month s/b more than sufficient.

 

The bolded statement is what I cannot agree with, indeed there are a lot of assumptions that go into any good faith business exchange that are considered so obvious as to not need stating, and in the case of comics whether a book is restored or not is surely one of them.

 

If the seller knows the book is restored, and did not declare it, we would all agree the transaction was not in good faith. But even if the seller does not know the status of the book, but presents it and prices it as one would expect for an unrestored copy, a buyer is naturally going to assume that they are not being offered a restored copy.

 

I understand that risk is attached to any transaction, there is a risk the book will be lost or damaged in transit, there is a risk the grader will have missed something, but that is not the same as the necessary assumptions that go into making transactions work.

 

There is a risk that the book will be damaged, but I assume you are trying to get it to me undamaged. There is a risk I will not agree with the grade, but I assume you are trying to grade conscientiously in some ballpark of industry standards. There is a risk the book is really a Plod, but I assume if I paid blue value for the raw book that you thought at least you were selling me an unrestored copy and that was the basis of our transaction.

 

 

[N/A]

What did the sales thread claim about the book? Assuming you are buying an unrestored book is just that, an assumption.

 

I disagree.

Raw books are always implied to be unrestored, unless otherwise mentioned by the seller.

 

It's an assumption. Whether it is a generally accepted assumption is another matter.

[N/A]

I am very surprised to see a discussion about a time limit when there was an agreed time limit in this thread some time ago. There was actually a refusal to add someone to the list because the transaction was more than 6 months prior. Strange.

 

I understand a seller having product knowledge, which is why I only sell moderns, but I also expect to have product knowledge as a buyer and from my buyers.

 

I bought an UXM 94 that CGC discovered had colour touch. I requested a refund for the book and walked them through who CGC was. Grading fees were on me. the seller claimed it was an OO book from his personal collection bought off the rack. Obviously a discrepancy.

 

Rupp's request is completely stand up and Mike, who can be very nervous, should quickly apologize and give the man his $60 but it is not PL worthy. What did the sales thread claim about the book? Assuming you are buying an unrestored book is just that, an assumption.

 

I really don't understand why every seller doesn't take returns for any reason and I deal with the volatile moderns market. A buyer having a book for a month s/b more than sufficient.

 

The bolded statement is what I cannot agree with, indeed there are a lot of assumptions that go into any good faith business exchange that are considered so obvious as to not need stating, and in the case of comics whether a book is restored or not is surely one of them.

 

If the seller knows the book is restored, and did not declare it, we would all agree the transaction was not in good faith. But even if the seller does not know the status of the book, but presents it and prices it as one would expect for an unrestored copy, a buyer is naturally going to assume that they are not being offered a restored copy.

 

I understand that risk is attached to any transaction, there is a risk the book will be lost or damaged in transit, there is a risk the grader will have missed something, but that is not the same as the necessary assumptions that go into making transactions work.

 

There is a risk that the book will be damaged, but I assume you are trying to get it to me undamaged. There is a risk I will not agree with the grade, but I assume you are trying to grade conscientiously in some ballpark of industry standards. There is a risk the book is really a Plod, but I assume if I paid blue value for the raw book that you thought at least you were selling me an unrestored copy and that was the basis of our transaction.

 

 

Is it simply the opinion of the 3rd party grader that makes this black and white for you?

[InvstmntComcSuply]

 

...... assuming something not stated is a bad idea.

 

Agreed and when restoration is not noted, one assumes the book is as manufactured, with only normal wear

 

 

[N/A]

 

...... assuming something not stated is a bad idea.

 

Agreed and when restoration is not noted, one assumes the book is as manufactured, with only normal wear

 

[InvstmntComcSuply]

yeah, that does sound kind of dumb ...

 

 

[cloud cloddie]

I have a book out at cgc that I bought here in October '13. The back cover edge always looked a little suspect. If it comes back trimmed, should I expect some kind of reimbursement from the seller? Without time limits here, the arguments apply I should

[N/A]

yeah, that does sound kind of dumb ...

 

 

It seemed to contradict your previous response to my post so I quoted for posterity while I pondered.

[N/A]

I have a book out at cgc that I bought here in October '13. The back cover edge always looked a little suspect. If it comes back trimmed, should I expect some kind of reimbursement from the seller? Without time limits here, the arguments apply I should

 

For me this is one of the differences between a good seller and a bad seller but not probation list enforceable.

[jimjum12]

 

...... assuming something not stated is a bad idea.

 

Agreed and when restoration is not noted, one assumes the book is as manufactured, with only normal wear

 

 

.... actually, I assume quite the opposite. It's state of preservation likely isn't..... and with a slabbing company that tries to screen for resto already at 2 million served and counting...... this should be suspect as well. GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[crassus]

I am very surprised to see a discussion about a time limit when there was an agreed time limit in this thread some time ago. There was actually a refusal to add someone to the list because the transaction was more than 6 months prior. Strange.

 

I understand a seller having product knowledge, which is why I only sell moderns, but I also expect to have product knowledge as a buyer and from my buyers.

 

I bought an UXM 94 that CGC discovered had colour touch. I requested a refund for the book and walked them through who CGC was. Grading fees were on me. the seller claimed it was an OO book from his personal collection bought off the rack. Obviously a discrepancy.

 

Rupp's request is completely stand up and Mike, who can be very nervous, should quickly apologize and give the man his $60 but it is not PL worthy. What did the sales thread claim about the book? Assuming you are buying an unrestored book is just that, an assumption.

 

I really don't understand why every seller doesn't take returns for any reason and I deal with the volatile moderns market. A buyer having a book for a month s/b more than sufficient.

 

The bolded statement is what I cannot agree with, indeed there are a lot of assumptions that go into any good faith business exchange that are considered so obvious as to not need stating, and in the case of comics whether a book is restored or not is surely one of them.

 

If the seller knows the book is restored, and did not declare it, we would all agree the transaction was not in good faith. But even if the seller does not know the status of the book, but presents it and prices it as one would expect for an unrestored copy, a buyer is naturally going to assume that they are not being offered a restored copy.

 

I understand that risk is attached to any transaction, there is a risk the book will be lost or damaged in transit, there is a risk the grader will have missed something, but that is not the same as the necessary assumptions that go into making transactions work.

 

There is a risk that the book will be damaged, but I assume you are trying to get it to me undamaged. There is a risk I will not agree with the grade, but I assume you are trying to grade conscientiously in some ballpark of industry standards. There is a risk the book is really a Plod, but I assume if I paid blue value for the raw book that you thought at least you were selling me an unrestored copy and that was the basis of our transaction.

 

 

Is it simply the opinion of the 3rd party grader that makes this black and white for you?

 

Fair enough. Restoration is a broad term for many things, and there is probably no truly universal industry wide definition of what is "restoration". It does not change the fact that at the original point of sale the normative standard for any book is "unrestored" and that will be the baseline assumption of any transaction.

 

Logically and quantitatively restoration is the exception, not the rule.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

yeah, that does sound kind of dumb ...

 

 

It seemed to contradict your previous response to my post so I quoted for posterity while I pondered.

 

I blame multitasking. It sort of sounded right when I was reading jimjims post, but clearly not after you quoted it. Here is where I was going:

 

 

...... assuming something not stated is a bad idea.

 

Agreed and when restoration is not noted, the book is implied to be as manufactured, with only normal wear. No need to assume otherwise.

[N/A]

I would hope that any buyer would ask all pertinent questions about what they're buying. I'll use pressing as an example. Some do not want pressed books and unless the seller had it pressed then it is unlikely they would know whether it had been or not. Some claim they can tell and if something implying it had been was noted on the label then would this example be so black and white?

[N/A]

yeah, that does sound kind of dumb ...

 

 

It seemed to contradict your previous response to my post so I quoted for posterity while I pondered.

 

I blame multitasking. It sort of sounded right when I was reading jimjims post, but clearly not after you quoted it. Here is where I was going:

 

 

...... assuming something not stated is a bad idea.

 

Agreed and when restoration is not noted, the book is implied to be as manufactured, with only normal wear. No need to assume otherwise.

 

Fair enough. I simply disagree. If it is important to the buyer then they should ask.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

I would hope that any buyer would ask all pertinent questions about what they're buying. I'll use pressing as an example. Some do not want pressed books and unless the seller had it pressed then it is unlikely they would know whether it had been or not. Some claim they can tell and if something implying it had been was noted on the label then would this example be so black and white?

 

We are talking about restoration.

Are you implying we need to ask if every book is restored prior to purchase?

 

[N/A]

I would hope that any buyer would ask all pertinent questions about what they're buying. I'll use pressing as an example. Some do not want pressed books and unless the seller had it pressed then it is unlikely they would know whether it had been or not. Some claim they can tell and if something implying it had been was noted on the label then would this example be so black and white?

 

And if the seller did not make any statements about pressing then is it ok for the buyer to assume it had not been?

[InvstmntComcSuply]

yeah, that does sound kind of dumb ...

 

 

It seemed to contradict your previous response to my post so I quoted for posterity while I pondered.

 

I blame multitasking. It sort of sounded right when I was reading jimjims post, but clearly not after you quoted it. Here is where I was going:

 

 

...... assuming something not stated is a bad idea.

 

Agreed and when restoration is not noted, the book is implied to be as manufactured, with only normal wear. No need to assume otherwise.

 

Fair enough. I simply disagree. If it is important to the buyer then they should ask.

 

I would say that if it is important to the seller, then he should state that they make no restoration guarantee. Then we can see how that sales thread goes.

[crassus]

I would hope that any buyer would ask all pertinent questions about what they're buying. I'll use pressing as an example. Some do not want pressed books and unless the seller had it pressed then it is unlikely they would know whether it had been or not. Some claim they can tell and if something implying it had been was noted on the label then would this example be so black and white?

 

I feel like you just pulled the pin and handed me the grenade.

 

 

[Bio-Rupp]

yeah, that does sound kind of dumb ...

 

 

It seemed to contradict your previous response to my post so I quoted for posterity while I pondered.

 

I blame multitasking. It sort of sounded right when I was reading jimjims post, but clearly not after you quoted it. Here is where I was going:

 

 

...... assuming something not stated is a bad idea.

 

Agreed and when restoration is not noted, the book is implied to be as manufactured, with only normal wear. No need to assume otherwise.

 

Fair enough. I simply disagree. If it is important to the buyer then they should ask.

 

No need to ask when the seller posts this in the sales thread

 

the batman 19 i put it in the grading forum I think it is 4.5 or so. no resto.

[skypinkblu]

I can envision many problems without time limits, here's one.

 

. Let's say I sell a book to Joe Darling in 2010. I'm pretty good at resto detection and I really do think it's unrestored.

 

I'm selling because my dog/cat/goldfish/car needs an operation, I'm upfront about it.

 

I need the cash, love the book, but my dog/cat/goldfish/car are just more precious to me, I need to save them. I'm a single parent with a few kids, but I do have my comic collection, so I sell the most expensive one...Jumping Jack #1 for $2k.

 

Joe Darling flips the book 5 months later to Fred Flintstone. Joe looked at the book carefully, thinks it's unrestored.

 

Fred, is a dealer, he's pretty good at resto detection, looks at the book carefully, thinks it's unrestored. he brings it to a show to try and sell it. He sells it to Perry White.

 

Perry is thrilled, this is his first expensive book, he's used all his available cash to buy it, he gets some cash 6 months later for his birthday and decided he'd like his prize comic slabbed, he submits to CGC. Cgc takes about 3 months for the book to come back (it was fast tracked;)

 

It comes back a PLOD,It's got micro trimming, everyone who doesn't own the super special cgc fantastic microscopic whatchamacallit, missed the micro trimming.

 

Does Perry go to Fred, who goes to Joe who goes to me?

 

My poor dog/cat/car/goldfish already used up that money. I have kids who need food/toys,clothing...and an elderly dog/cat/goldfish/car I'm supporting.

 

Is it too late for ME to go to Mary Maryland, the person I bought it from? I owned it for 10 years before I sold it. She might be dead by now...

 

We are all boarders, btw...and no, I'm not drinking, just thinking;)

 

I don't love the case by case discussion idea, it gets to be a popularity thing. Probation was always pretty cut and dry.