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PROBATION DISCUSSIONS
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Started by alwaysbronze,

36,203 posts in this topic

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Posted
Posted
From the same sales thread...

 

I assume you guarantee no restoration correct?

 

Absolutely.

 

:facepalm:

 

How can anyone argue against this addition? :D

 

I don't think anyone was arguing with Rupp's stance from the get go.

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I would hope that any buyer would ask all pertinent questions about what they're buying. I'll use pressing as an example. Some do not want pressed books and unless the seller had it pressed then it is unlikely they would know whether it had been or not. Some claim they can tell and if something implying it had been was noted on the label then would this example be so black and white?

 

We are talking about restoration.

Are you implying we need to ask if every book is restored prior to purchase?

 

I am saying that it is the responsibility of any buyer to ask about the product they are buying. If restoration is important to a buyer then of course they should ask and not assume.

 

As a seller it is simply not possible for me to know what is important to every buyer. I understand resto may be important to the majority....maybe.

 

How do I deal with that? I offer no questions asked returns. I do tend to ask a couple questions. :)

 

At some point both the seller and the buyer need to have the confidence that the transaction is complete. 6 months even seems extreme to me but PayPal is enforcing that.

 

Try flipping the -script. If a buyer buys a restored book and it is graded universal label by CGC then can the seller ask for the book back?

 

How do you know if a buyer cares if a book has been restored?

 

Given that a restored book is worth about a third or less in value of an un-restored book I would have to think that we are talking about a very small population that has no opinion on the matter.

 

Please let us know what percentage of your buyers have received a restored book from you (without you disclosing in), noticed the restoration, and let you know that they were happy with the transaction.

 

How can there be any trust between buyers and sellers if a buyer has to ask if a book has been restored before a seller feels inclined to share that information?

 

Always back to the dollars. What is the problem with a buyer asking? Why should a buyer feel entitled to assume?

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jimjum12

jimjum12

Posted
Posted
From the same sales thread...

 

I assume you guarantee no restoration correct?

 

Absolutely.

 

... he really should refund the $60....... and I really should have bought that 19 in your thread....... but then, I don't automatically think a restored book is worthless..... maybe I missed the memo. I've got a buddy who loves them..... he can get a good book for a bargain. GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

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I edited that out. ;)

 

But I think some ARE arguing with Rupp's PL nomination.

 

It is not PL worthy. Too much time has passed. That is not to say that the facts otherwise warrant the nomination.

 

In short, time is up. (shrug)

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crassus

crassus

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Posted
Repeating it doesn't make it true. By definition you are assuming and we both know what happens then. You are talking like it is an industry standard. If it is then you are assuming that you're dealing with someone who is aware of the standard. It's silly to not take the time to ask if it is important to you.

 

A few things here. While there may not be a truly universal absolute definition covering all restoration there is a broad consensus that each category, restored and unrestored, results in two different value metrics. If I went into comics sales with the premise that it didn't really matter which was which, that would very quickly become untenable.

 

The argument is not about the perfect knowledge and detection abilities of the seller. The argument is about a basic categorical divide that is assumed to matter in all definitions and evaluations.

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Posted
Posted
From the same sales thread...

 

I assume you guarantee no restoration correct?

 

Absolutely.

 

... he really should refund the $60....... and I really should have bought that 19 in your thread....... but then, I don't automatically think a restored book is worthless..... maybe I missed the memo. I've got a buddy who loves them..... he can get a good book for a bargain. GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

Yes, he should but I don't feel obligated to make sure he does.

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Bio-Rupp

Bio-Rupp

Posted
Posted
From the same sales thread...

 

I assume you guarantee no restoration correct?

 

Absolutely.

 

... he really should refund the $60....... and I really should have bought that 19 in your thread....... but then, I don't automatically think a restored book is worthless..... maybe I missed the memo. I've got a buddy who loves them..... he can get a good book for a bargain. GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

It still was a sharp book wasn't it? Regardless of whether or not it was or was not what I supposedly purchased... it did look nice :D

 

Andy was thrilled to get it and I was happy for him :D

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Repeating it doesn't make it true. By definition you are assuming and we both know what happens then. You are talking like it is an industry standard. If it is then you are assuming that you're dealing with someone who is aware of the standard. It's silly to not take the time to ask if it is important to you.

 

A few things here. While there may not be a truly universal absolute definition covering all restoration there is a broad consensus that each category, restored and unrestored, results in two different value metrics. If I went into comics sales with the premise that it didn't really matter which was which, that would very quickly become untenable.

 

The argument is not about the perfect knowledge and detection abilities of the seller. The argument is about a basic categorical divide that is assumed to matter in all definitions and evaluations.

 

So anyone who does not even know about resto should not sell here?

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InvstmntComcSuply

InvstmntComcSuply

Posted
Posted
Repeating it doesn't make it true. By definition you are assuming and we both know what happens then. You are talking like it is an industry standard. If it is then you are assuming that you're dealing with someone who is aware of the standard. It's silly to not take the time to ask if it is important to you.

 

It is an industry standard.

And a board standard.

 

It may be an industry standard. It is not a board standard.

 

 

Show me a board decision that supported anyone who refused to refund on undisclosed restoration. Disregard extended time frames for the time being as I think they should be addressed separately.

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CAHokie

CAHokie

Posted
Posted
Repeating it doesn't make it true. By definition you are assuming and we both know what happens then. You are talking like it is an industry standard. If it is then you are assuming that you're dealing with someone who is aware of the standard. It's silly to not take the time to ask if it is important to you.

 

It is an industry standard.

And a board standard.

 

It may be an industry standard. It is not a board standard.

 

 

Show me a board decision that supported anyone who refused to refund on undisclosed restoration. Disregard extended time frames for the time being as I think they should be addressed separately.

 

Has anyone stated that undisclosed resto should not be refundable? I thought the main argument has been the major time lapse in the request.

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InvstmntComcSuply

InvstmntComcSuply

Posted
Posted

 

I am saying that it is the responsibility of any buyer to ask about the product they are buying. If restoration is important to a buyer then of course they should ask and not assume.

 

As a seller it is simply not possible for me to know what is important to every buyer.

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crassus

crassus

Posted
Posted
Repeating it doesn't make it true. By definition you are assuming and we both know what happens then. You are talking like it is an industry standard. If it is then you are assuming that you're dealing with someone who is aware of the standard. It's silly to not take the time to ask if it is important to you.

 

A few things here. While there may not be a truly universal absolute definition covering all restoration there is a broad consensus that each category, restored and unrestored, results in two different value metrics. If I went into comics sales with the premise that it didn't really matter which was which, that would very quickly become untenable.

 

The argument is not about the perfect knowledge and detection abilities of the seller. The argument is about a basic categorical divide that is assumed to matter in all definitions and evaluations.

 

So anyone who does not even know about resto should not sell here?

 

Well yes they can sell here, but if they do not learn that restoration matters, they are unlikely to be successful.

 

 

 

 

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Posted
Posted
Repeating it doesn't make it true. By definition you are assuming and we both know what happens then. You are talking like it is an industry standard. If it is then you are assuming that you're dealing with someone who is aware of the standard. It's silly to not take the time to ask if it is important to you.

 

A few things here. While there may not be a truly universal absolute definition covering all restoration there is a broad consensus that each category, restored and unrestored, results in two different value metrics. If I went into comics sales with the premise that it didn't really matter which was which, that would very quickly become untenable.

 

The argument is not about the perfect knowledge and detection abilities of the seller. The argument is about a basic categorical divide that is assumed to matter in all definitions and evaluations.

 

So anyone who does not even know about resto should not sell here?

 

Well yes they can sell here, but if they do not learn that restoration matters, they are unlikely to be successful.

 

 

 

 

Should they be on the PL?

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wombat

wombat

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I certainly don't dabble in higher end books, but from everything i have seen in the selling forum I would assume known resto would be disclosed and if no mention is made the seller doesn't know it has happened.

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crassus

crassus

Posted
Posted
Repeating it doesn't make it true. By definition you are assuming and we both know what happens then. You are talking like it is an industry standard. If it is then you are assuming that you're dealing with someone who is aware of the standard. It's silly to not take the time to ask if it is important to you.

 

A few things here. While there may not be a truly universal absolute definition covering all restoration there is a broad consensus that each category, restored and unrestored, results in two different value metrics. If I went into comics sales with the premise that it didn't really matter which was which, that would very quickly become untenable.

 

The argument is not about the perfect knowledge and detection abilities of the seller. The argument is about a basic categorical divide that is assumed to matter in all definitions and evaluations.

 

So anyone who does not even know about resto should not sell here?

 

Well yes they can sell here, but if they do not learn that restoration matters, they are unlikely to be successful.

 

 

 

 

Should they be on the PL?

 

That is a very broad question. Certainly if they go forward either unwilling or unable to cope with the significance of restoration in the marketplace there will be a high likelihood of complaints against them, and some of those may be PL worthy. Again, in every PL case the devil is in the details.

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crassus

crassus

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One thing comes to mind, if there is a serious push for a time limit, that we may want to think differently for the HoS. At least insofar as the HoS is governed first by the basic PL rules, that point would need clarification. I personally think the HoS is too serious to have the same time limit on nominations, if at all. 2c

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PovertyRow

PovertyRow

Posted
Posted
Repeating it doesn't make it true. By definition you are assuming and we both know what happens then. You are talking like it is an industry standard. If it is then you are assuming that you're dealing with someone who is aware of the standard. It's silly to not take the time to ask if it is important to you.

 

A few things here. While there may not be a truly universal absolute definition covering all restoration there is a broad consensus that each category, restored and unrestored, results in two different value metrics. If I went into comics sales with the premise that it didn't really matter which was which, that would very quickly become untenable.

 

The argument is not about the perfect knowledge and detection abilities of the seller. The argument is about a basic categorical divide that is assumed to matter in all definitions and evaluations.

 

So anyone who does not even know about resto should not sell here?

 

This whole sub-topic is literally the most inane one I have read in all my years here. My only assumption is it is a joke. Anyone who knowingly sells restored books without revealing they are restored should not sell anywhere. Anyone who does not see any difference between selling a restored and unrestored book should not be selling anywhere.

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crassus

crassus

Posted
Posted
Repeating it doesn't make it true. By definition you are assuming and we both know what happens then. You are talking like it is an industry standard. If it is then you are assuming that you're dealing with someone who is aware of the standard. It's silly to not take the time to ask if it is important to you.

 

A few things here. While there may not be a truly universal absolute definition covering all restoration there is a broad consensus that each category, restored and unrestored, results in two different value metrics. If I went into comics sales with the premise that it didn't really matter which was which, that would very quickly become untenable.

 

The argument is not about the perfect knowledge and detection abilities of the seller. The argument is about a basic categorical divide that is assumed to matter in all definitions and evaluations.

 

So anyone who does not even know about resto should not sell here?

 

This whole sub-topic is literally the most inane one I have read in all my years here. My only assumption is it is a joke. Anyone who knowingly sells restored books without revealing they are restored should not sell anywhere. Anyone who does not see any difference between selling a restored and unrestored book should not be selling anywhere.

 

As I understand the discussion, I don't think there is any argument about that, put in those terms. The attack is directed I think against the assumption of black and white definitions of restoration. I saw the spirit of the debate to be basically "resto is complicated so don't try to make the seller's responsibility so black and white". 2c

 

 

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