Manufactured Gold

[mica]

[FFB]

Displaying white pages and a distinctive black "S" grease pencil mark in the book's logo area, this Very Fine copy of Thrilling Comics #1 sold just under its pre-auction estimate.

 

Seven-months later the book resurfaced, this time without the unique "S" and re-graded as a Near Mint -. Also missing from the copy was a light "25.00" pencil mark which was unobtrusively located in the upper left-hand corner of the original back cover surface.

 

how is it that you know it is the same book? i'm not questioning you, just wondering.

second how could cgc remove the 8.0 from the records? what could they possibly say?

cgc....what do you have to say?

 

 

Any time someone sends the label back to CGC, CGC removes the book from the census. It happens all the time and it isn't really controversial.

[mikephoen]

My question is why send the old label back, if you're playing the clean/press/resub game? Isnt it easier to pretend its a different book if the original is still in the database? Are they trying to make the issue appear more rare by lowering the number of total copies in the census? Thats the only reason I can think of. There must be a monetary reason for it, I cant imagine someone who is playing this game caring about the integrity of the census database....

[Red Hook]

Well, they can always claim they returned the label...."for the good of the hobby" and because..."it's the right thing to do".

[MasterChief]

how is it that you know it is the same book? i'm not questioning you, just wondering.

 

Prior to cataloguing an example, I go over the hi-res scans closely and do a comparison of features. Some are identified straightaway. Others take longer to match up. I go over the scans again before putting a post together. I'm sure many here use the same procedure.

 

If I have posted in error and the books don't match up, I ask that you call me on it. I'm not perfect and could be wrong. The only way you're going to know for sure is if you conduct your own visual examination.

 

Hope this helps.

 

--Mitch

[esquirecomics]

Displaying white pages and a distinctive black "S" grease pencil mark in the book's logo area, this Very Fine copy of Thrilling Comics #1 sold just under its pre-auction estimate.

 

Seven-months later the book resurfaced, this time without the unique "S" and re-graded as a Near Mint -. Also missing from the copy was a light "25.00" pencil mark which was unobtrusively located in the upper left-hand corner of the original back cover surface.

 

how is it that you know it is the same book? i'm not questioning you, just wondering.

second how could cgc remove the 8.0 from the records? what could they possibly say?

cgc....what do you have to say?

 

Any time someone sends the label back to CGC, CGC removes the book from the census. It happens all the time and it isn't really controversial.

 

Of course you mean to say "it isn't really controversial to CGC."

 

I agree. They are simply implementing their business model. It is exactly what they envisioned and quietly promoted at their start-up meetings in 1999.

 

The more important question is "is it controversial" or "does anyone care" within the community that this is being done.

[Red Hook]

And I'll follow that up with another question....

 

Who is "the community", at large?

 

Is it us?

 

I don't think so.

 

I believe that the collecting community "at large" is still mainly in the dark about many of the issues being debated here on the boards.

[Bullet123]

The path this one takes is interesting...

 

July 2005 Shadow Comics V9#2 CGC VF 8.0 Off-white to white pages. "This is currently the highest grade awarded by CGC for this issue."

 

March 2006 Shadow Comics V9#2 CGC NM 9.4 on Ebay, reserve not met.

 

May 2006 goes back to Heritage Shadow Comics V9#2 CGC NM 9.4

 

Of course the 8.0 is no longer in the census.

 

 

 

 

Can someone who thinks this is so controversial tell me what is the difference between this and someone who buys it and then cracks it out and sells it raw? It was obviously a nice looking 8.0 book to begin with.

[esquirecomics]

And I'll follow that up with another question....

 

Who is "the community", at large?

 

Is it us?

 

I don't think so.

 

I believe that the collecting community "at large" is still mainly in the dark about many of the issues being debated here on the boards.

 

Yes, I was referring to the larger COMMUNITY and not just the CGC boards. And I agree with your assessment of the lack of light within the community.

[Bullet123]

And I'll follow that up with another question....

 

Who is "the community", at large?

 

Is it us?

 

I don't think so.

 

I believe that the collecting community "at large" is still mainly in the dark about many of the issues being debated here on the boards.

 

Yes, I was referring to the larger COMMUNITY and not just the CGC boards. And I agree with your assessment of the lack of light within the community.

 

Is it uninformed or apathy? I think the vocal minority on these boards would like to think that everyone shares their opinions or they will shout even louder until they do. I am not saying that some of the issues that are brought up on these boards are not noteworthy. They are, but hearing about them ad nauseum makes coming to these boards to learn about comics and their history, not controversy, a rather daunting task sometimes. If we spent as much time and effort on collecting and learning the history behind this great medium instead of ranting and raving and being civil towards each other this hobby might actually turn out to be a fun. Just imagine with me for a moment, having fun at something you like to do. What a wonderful world this would be

[esquirecomics]

And I'll follow that up with another question....

 

Who is "the community", at large?

 

Is it us?

 

I don't think so.

 

I believe that the collecting community "at large" is still mainly in the dark about many of the issues being debated here on the boards.

 

Yes, I was referring to the larger COMMUNITY and not just the CGC boards. And I agree with your assessment of the lack of light within the community.

 

Is it uninformed or apathy? I think the vocal minority on these boards would like to think that everyone shares their opinions or they will shout even louder until they do. I am not saying that some of the issues that are brought up on these boards are not noteworthy. They are, but hearing about them ad nauseum makes coming to these boards to learn about comics and their history, not controversy, a rather daunting task sometimes. If we spent as much time and effort on collecting and learning the history behind this great medium instead of ranting and raving and being civil towards each other this hobby might actually turn out to be a fun. Just imagine with me for a moment, having fun at something you like to do. What a wonderful world this would be

 

I think most of the community doesn't know simply because they aren't aware that these issues are even being debated. Of course I don't doubt that a segment of the population does know and doesn't care.

 

And I certainly agree with you that beating the horse to death is neither informative nor very interesting, and I think that is why you have seen certain posters on these boards not post as often.

 

That said, the discussions on many of these controversial issues has been very informative and educational. I often receive comments from people who just recently came across a particular thread and would invariably say they were new to the boards and had not known of the debate and were now glad they were. Because threads "fade" away the only way to continue the message is to continue the discussion.

[Red Hook]

There are plenty of active threads about comics and their history. Hundreds.

 

If you don't think a thread including a discussion of the literal erasure of a comic's markings and it's pedigree status doesn't have anything to do with the hobby's history, then there is no hope for you.

 

I for one, will continue to voice my active disapproval of current conditions....ad nauseum....until there are changes made. No compromise, no loss of interest and no wandering of attention. Sorry, but I'm not here to entertain you. There are plenty of other threads to choose from.

[rjpb]

Wow, you're good MasterChief.

 

Apart from my disdain for the removal of the distinctive markings, I am surprised that the "improved" version was able to get a 9.2 grade. I count at least seven visible spine stresses.

 

Agreed - other than the erasures only the top rt. corner bend looks "Improved" and then only marginally. 8.0 was a tight grade for the first time around, and really the book shouldn't be more than an 8.5.

 

Resub roulette has more to do with the massive "value" increase more than manipulation of the comic itself.

[rjpb]

The path this one takes is interesting...

 

July 2005 Shadow Comics V9#2 CGC VF 8.0 Off-white to white pages. "This is currently the highest grade awarded by CGC for this issue."

 

March 2006 Shadow Comics V9#2 CGC NM 9.4 on Ebay, reserve not met.

 

May 2006 goes back to Heritage Shadow Comics V9#2 CGC NM 9.4

 

Of course the 8.0 is no longer in the census.

 

 

 

 

Can someone who thinks this is so controversial tell me what is the difference between this and someone who buys it and then cracks it out and sells it raw? It was obviously a nice looking 8.0 book to begin with.

 

A nice looking book that has a visible NCB crease in the LRC in the larger scan of the 8.0 version, not so visible (but still there) in the "9.4" version. What seems controversial is, a) the manipulation of these books to achieve a higher grade, and b) the suspicion that Heritage itself is playing the press, clean and resub game. Perhaps not illegal, but many would agree unethical if true.

[Viscosity-migration]

There are plenty of active threads about comics and their history. Hundreds.

 

If you don't think a thread including a discussion of the literal erasure of a comic's markings and it's pedigree status doesn't have anything to do with the hobby's history, then there is no hope for you.

 

I for one, will continue to voice my active disapproval of current conditions....ad nauseum....until there are changes made. No compromise, no loss of interest and no wandering of attention. Sorry, but I'm not here to entertain you. There are plenty of other threads to choose from.

 

Everytime a blockhead like you starts whining.....it doubles my determination.

 

Thanks.

 

 

Thanks Red you wrote everything I wanted to write, but saved me the time

 

 

Truly, ANYONE that is not "somewhat" disturbed by 8.0 upgrades to a 9.4 tier with ANY book...well,

 

 

It amazes me that CGC continues to allow itself to be a willing participant in "suspect protocols" that seem to change by the year As someone who first submitted books to CGC back in June of 2000, and continued to for 31/2 years later...this kind of "stuff" has left me ill

 

and I have not, nor will...submit ever again, until something changes.

 

Also, simply for the sake of controversy am I the only one that always thought a third party ANYTHING...should NOT socialize, nor drink wine, and have steak dinners...with your largest submitters? I mean, WOW...talk about a bad principle, business decision. Regardless of its actual intent, or innocent nature...the perception ALONE that it gives, is akin to this:

 

 

 

 

bad choice guys

 

consorting with clients outside of a business arena, is a 180' from the definition of "3rd party"

[Red Hook]

Well, I did retract my "blockhead" reference. That was unwarranted.

[Bullet123]

There are plenty of active threads about comics and their history. Hundreds.

 

If you don't think a thread including a discussion of the literal erasure of a comic's markings and it's pedigree status doesn't have anything to do with the hobby's history, then there is no hope for you.

 

I for one, will continue to voice my active disapproval of current conditions....ad nauseum....until there are changes made. No compromise, no loss of interest and no wandering of attention. Sorry, but I'm not here to entertain you. There are plenty of other threads to choose from.

 

Curious, all the "evil-doer's" of this hobby have affected your comic collecting habits how?

 

What exactly did you collect before you found out the hobby was rife with controversy that you no longer collect?

 

What have you been unable to collect and why since you learned that, in your mind at least, the entire hobby is out to get you?

[Red Hook]

Never mind. You are a blockhead.

[Bullet123]

I am not specifically trying to pick on you. There are probably a dozen or so posters who continue to harp on things. I would just like to know exactly how all the things you rant and rave about have affected your collecting habits. It really is a simple question. I will repeat it for you.

 

What did you collect previously before you were enlightened to all the evil things that go on in the hobby, that you no longer collect because your beyond reproach ethical stance prevents you from doing?

[Apotheosis]

Also, simply for the sake of controversy am I the only one that always thought a third party ANYTHING...should NOT socialize, nor drink wine, and have steak dinners...with your largest submitters? I mean, WOW...talk about a bad principle, business decision. Regardless of its actual intent, or innocent nature...the perception ALONE that it gives, is akin to this:

 

bad choice guys

 

consorting with clients outside of a business arena, is a 180' from the definition of "3rd party"

 

You may not be the only one that feels this way, but it doesn't make you right.

 

Why in the world should they not have dinner with people? Remember... most of the staff at CGC were big time collector's before they worked there. Many of them had contacts with these people before they went into business. Should the say "Hey... I know I've known you for 20 years and were all buddy buddy, but now that I work at CGC I can't consort with you any more"? These are people within the business. It's only natural for them to talk and eat with others from the business. I can't think of another industry on the planet where the people in it can't socialize with the people they do business with.

 

Does it make them less impartial? Maybe, but there's no way to ever know that for sure. Theoretically the people grading the comics don't know who submitted them so there shouldn't be any preferential treatment, but again you never know.

 

Speculating that there is something sinister about Steve B. having dinner with Vincent from metro is a waste of time. Now if you have proof that Vincent slipped an envelope filled with cash to Steve at dinner... well then we have something to talk about. If not then let it go and let's talk about the problems that we KNOW are happening.