Manufactured Gold

[esquirecomics]

I am not specifically trying to pick on you. There are probably a dozen or so posters who continue to harp on things. I would just like to know exactly how all the things you rant and rave about have affected your collecting habits. It really is a simple question. I will repeat it for you.

 

What did you collect previously before you were enlightened to all the evil things that go on in the hobby, that you no longer collect because your beyond reproach ethical stance prevents you from doing?

 

For me it is not as much what I have chosen not to collect due to the "issues" in our hobby, but from whom/what I will buy from or sell to (or use to sell).

 

Though I am certainly leary/suspicious of certain HG books and I have refrained from purchasing them because I was uncertain of their history. But not like I have stopped collecting a particular title such as More Fun comics or a genre such as Golden Age.

[Viscosity-migration]

I am not specifically trying to pick on you. There are probably a dozen or so posters who continue to harp on things. I would just like to know exactly how all the things you rant and rave about have affected your collecting habits. It really is a simple question. I will repeat it for you.

 

What did you collect previously before you were enlightened to all the evil things that go on in the hobby, that you no longer collect because your beyond reproach ethical stance prevents you from doing?

 

 

Are you one of them?

 

come on, be a man...admit it!

 

p.s.

 

and DON'T respond with "one of whom"

[esquirecomics]

Also, simply for the sake of controversy am I the only one that always thought a third party ANYTHING...should NOT socialize, nor drink wine, and have steak dinners...with your largest submitters? I mean, WOW...talk about a bad principle, business decision. Regardless of its actual intent, or innocent nature...the perception ALONE that it gives, is akin to this:

 

bad choice guys

 

consorting with clients outside of a business arena, is a 180' from the definition of "3rd party"

 

You may not be the only one that feels this way, but it doesn't make you right.

 

Why in the world should they not have dinner with people? Remember... most of the staff at CGC were big time collector's before they worked there. Many of them had contacts with these people before they went into business. Should the say "Hey... I know I've known you for 20 years and were all buddy buddy, but now that I work at CGC I can't consort with you any more"? These are people within the business. It's only natural for them to talk and eat with others from the business. I can't think of another industry on the planet where the people in it can't socialize with the people they do business with.

 

Does it make them less impartial? Maybe, but there's no way to ever know that for sure. Theoretically the people grading the comics don't know who submitted them so there shouldn't be any preferential treatment, but again you never know.

 

Speculating that there is something sinister about Steve B. having dinner with Vincent from metro is a waste of time. Now if you have proof that Vincent slipped an envelope filled with cash to Steve at dinner... well then we have something to talk about. If not then let it go and let's talk about the problems that we KNOW are happening.

 

I agree. I have no problems with CGC staff maintaining friendships with anyone so long as it doesn't cross the line into inappropriate conduct.

 

Geez, at most forum dinners it is typically for Steve B and I to sit together, and certainly buy each other drinks. Our personal friendship does not impact our professional relationship.

[october]

It's the appearance of impropriety that's important. Regardless of it's effect on their grading, CGC employees having dinner and boozing it up with large scale submitters simply looks bad. It's especially unprofessional when they hold themselves out as a impartial third party. Remember the Scalia/Cheney hunting trip? Same kind of thing. Nothing may have happened to influence someone's decision one way or the other, but it certainly doesn't do a whole lot for people's confidence.

[Apotheosis]

So they shouldn't have dinner or drinks with any dealers? Any idea how few people will show up to the Forum dinners because of that?

 

What if they were friends before CGC? Do they toss that friend so you feel fluffy about it?

[esquirecomics]

It's the appearance of impropriety that's important. Regardless of it's effect on their grading, CGC employees having dinner and boozing it up with large scale submitters simply looks bad. It's especially unprofessional when they hold themselves out as a impartial third party. Remember the Scalia/Cheney hunting trip? Same kind of thing. Nothing may have happened to influence someone's decision one way or the other, but it certainly doesn't do a whole lot for people's confidence.

 

You wouldn't like Washington, D.C. then.

[Viscosity-migration]

Also, simply for the sake of controversy am I the only one that always thought a third party ANYTHING...should NOT socialize, nor drink wine, and have steak dinners...with your largest submitters? I mean, WOW...talk about a bad principle, business decision. Regardless of its actual intent, or innocent nature...the perception ALONE that it gives, is akin to this:

 

bad choice guys

 

consorting with clients outside of a business arena, is a 180' from the definition of "3rd party"

 

You may not be the only one that feels this way, but it doesn't make you right.

 

Why in the world should they not have dinner with people? Remember... most of the staff at CGC were big time collector's before they worked there. Many of them had contacts with these people before they went into business. Should the say "Hey... I know I've known you for 20 years and were all buddy buddy, but now that I work at CGC I can't consort with you any more"? These are people within the business. It's only natural for them to talk and eat with others from the business. I can't think of another industry on the planet where the people in it can't socialize with the people they do business with.

 

Does it make them less impartial? Maybe, but there's no way to ever know that for sure. Theoretically the people grading the comics don't know who submitted them so there shouldn't be any preferential treatment, but again you never know.

 

Speculating that there is something sinister about Steve B. having dinner with Vincent from metro is a waste of time. Now if you have proof that Vincent slipped an envelope filled with cash to Steve at dinner... well then we have something to talk about. If not then let it go and let's talk about the problems that we KNOW are happening.

 

I agree. I have no problems with CGC staff maintaining friendships with anyone so long as it doesn't cross the line into inappropriate conduct.

 

Geez, at most forum dinners it is typically for Steve B and I to sit together, and certainly buy each other drinks. Our personal friendship does not impact our professional relationship.

 

 

Mark..

here is where you and I part ways my man. I don't have "proof" of any "inappropriate" conduct (although, that word in of itself, is vague) nor did I "accuse" anyone either of ANYTHING either.

 

However, what I DID say, and stand by, is this:

 

A third party ANYTHING should not have outside social conduct with their clients, PERIOD!!!! It could all be completely innocent, who cares? the perception it gives to the industry/community is dangerous. ESPECIALLY once evidence arises, that "some" of those social clients, have practiced "disputed behavior" lets say.(as a lawyer, you should know that dude)

 

and YES, I don't really care if the guy is your cousin, once that association compromises the INTEGRITY of the business model, you're damn right you should NOT consort socially, especially, in public. Human beings are an emotion based species, hence, "[embarrassing lack of self control] happens" and favoritism "could" be inacted, sometimes even on a subliminal plane.

 

Again, it really matters none if impropriety is evident (this is not a court), because the perception it creates does the damage all by itself.

 

I'm sorry, opinions are aplenty, and mine on this issue stands clear

[october]

So they shouldn't have dinner or drinks with any dealers? Any idea how few people will show up to the Forum dinners because of that?

 

What if they were friends before CGC? Do they toss that friend so you feel fluffy about it?

 

You are making it sound like I have a problem with it personally. I don't buy slabs, I don't send books in for slabbing, I don't know Steve Borock, and I don't really care one way or the other. However, if I were buying big dollar CGC books from a guy who parties and has dinner with the same people who are determining the value of his books, then yes, I would definitely think twice. Anyone with a brain should wonder.

 

I can't believe I am getting flak for this.

[october]

It's the appearance of impropriety that's important. Regardless of it's effect on their grading, CGC employees having dinner and boozing it up with large scale submitters simply looks bad. It's especially unprofessional when they hold themselves out as a impartial third party. Remember the Scalia/Cheney hunting trip? Same kind of thing. Nothing may have happened to influence someone's decision one way or the other, but it certainly doesn't do a whole lot for people's confidence.

 

You wouldn't like Washington, D.C. then.

 

I am sure I wouldn't. Politicians are the second lowest form of life on earth.

[Viscosity-migration]

So they shouldn't have dinner or drinks with any dealers? Any idea how few people will show up to the Forum dinners because of that?

 

What if they were friends before CGC? Do they toss that friend so you feel fluffy about it?

 

 

bahahahahahahahahahaha...did you just really write:

 

"then who would show up at FORUM dinners"

 

 

WHO GIVES A [embarrassing lack of self control]....the paramount issue SHOULD be the realtive health, and integrity, of the Comic Book INDUSTRY! That's a bit more important than your "male bonding" moments at forum dinners

 

...right?

[nik]

I am pretty sure the graders in Florida were collectors first. So with that thought, I am guessing that they know other collectors in the hobby, that they are friends with or hang out with. Now are they suppose to stop socializing with these friends because they submit books for grading

 

I dont really see a problem with them getting together with other collectors at functions and still remain professional at what they do.

[Apotheosis]

Again, it really matters none if impropriety is evident (this is not a court), because the perception it creates does the damage all by itself.

 

Is that perception a common one? How many people actually care if Steve has dinner with Vincent or Chucky? I honestly don't think most people view that in a negative light.

 

As for your comment about it not mattering if the person is a cousin, they still shouldn't socialize... utter cr@p. It's unrealistic to think that a person will sever ties with friends because they're a "third party" and can't be seen to like them. If that were the case nobody would work for these companies. Why would you when you have to toss friends aside so that you don't create the perception of impropriety to people you'll never know. You're basically asking them to cut off contact with our/their hobby outside of grading. They are people you know.

[chrisco37]

 

Geez, at most forum dinners it is typically for Steve B and I to sit together, and certainly buy each other drinks. Our personal friendship does not impact our professional relationship.

 

 

[Red Hook]

I am not specifically trying to pick on you. There are probably a dozen or so posters who continue to harp on things. I would just like to know exactly how all the things you rant and rave about have affected your collecting habits. It really is a simple question. I will repeat it for you.

 

What did you collect previously before you were enlightened to all the evil things that go on in the hobby, that you no longer collect because your beyond reproach ethical stance prevents you from doing?

 

So you read through this whole thread....and that's the best you can come up with?

[Viscosity-migration]

Third Party:

 

 

A conflict of interest is a situation in which someone in a position of trust, such as a lawyer, a politician, or an executive or director of a corporation, has competing professional or personal interests. Such competing interests can make it difficult to fulfill his or her duties impartially. Even if there is no evidence of improper actions, a conflict of interest can create an appearance of impropriety that can undermine confidence in the ability of that person to act properly in his/her position.

In the legal profession, the duty of loyalty owed to a client is generally supposed to preclude an attorney (or a law firm) from representing persons with interests adverse to those of the client. As perhaps the most common example encountered by the general public, the same firm will not represent both parties in a divorce case.

More generally, conflict of interest can be defined as any situation in which an individual or corporation (either private or governmental) is in a position to exploit a professional or official capacity in some way for their personal or corporate benefit.

Having a conflict of interest is not, in and of itself, evidence of wrongdoing. In fact, for many professionals, it is virtually impossible to avoid having conflicts of interest from time to time. A conflict of interest can, however, become a legal matter if an individual tries (and/or succeeds in) influencing the outcome of a decision, for personal benefit.

There often is confusion over these two situations. Someone accused of a conflict of interest may deny that a conflict exists because he/she did not act improperly. In fact, a conflict of interest does exist even if there are no improper acts as a result of it. (One way to understand this is to use the term "conflict of roles". A person with two roles - an individual who owns stock and is also a government official, for example - may experience situations where those two roles conflict. The conflict can be mitigated - see below - but it still exists. In and of itself, having two roles is not illegal, but the differing roles will certainly provide an incentive for improper acts in some circumstances.)

[Apotheosis]

bahahahahahahahahahaha...did you just really write:

 

"then who would show up at FORUM dinners"

 

That was meant as a joke... sorry I forgot the I realize that there is no room for humor in your world of comics. I appolagize and will refrain from not being 100% serious about funny books from now on <---- ... that means it's a joke....

[Viscosity-migration]

Again, it really matters none if impropriety is evident (this is not a court), because the perception it creates does the damage all by itself.

 

Is that perception a common one? How many people actually care if Steve has dinner with Vincent or Chucky? I honestly don't think most people view that in a negative light.

 

As for your comment about it not mattering if the person is a cousin, they still shouldn't socialize... utter cr@p. It's unrealistic to think that a person will sever ties with friends because they're a "third party" and can't be seen to like them. If that were the case nobody would work for these companies. Why would you when you have to toss friends aside so that you don't create the perception of impropriety to people you'll never know. You're basically asking them to cut off contact with our/their hobby outside of grading. They are people you know.

 

 

Uhhhhhhhhhh, dude...IN A BUSINESS TRANSACTION, OR CAPACITY

 

Obviously, you'll still eat turkey with your cousin at Thanksgiving.

[mica]

This thread WAS a great thread where images of doctored books could be viewed all in one place but it is getting sidetracked.

 

Although I like the conversation (and encourage it on some level) I wish it was in another thread .

[JJBEE2001]

 

Geez, at most forum dinners it is typically for Steve B and I to sit together, and certainly buy each other drinks. Our personal friendship does not impact our professional relationship.

 

 

 

Awesome picture!!! BTW, the day after that picture was taken, Mark listed hundreds of "Highest-graded" books of his site!

 

Kidding, Mark. And no, I still won't sell you my book.

[Viscosity-migration]

bahahahahahahahahahaha...did you just really write:

 

"then who would show up at FORUM dinners"

 

That was meant as a joke... sorry I forgot the I realize that there is no room for humor in your world of comics. I appolagize and will refrain from not being 100% serious about funny books from now on <---- ... that means it's a joke....

 

 

Do you also find it comical that there are many people being robbed of THOUSANDS of their hard earned $$$ because of the [embarrassing lack of self control] going on? Does that invoke laughs for you as well

 

 

lord, this hurts