Manufactured Gold

[Davenport]

Your point about the meaning of ' grade ' is a good one.

 

Looking at the glossary in my copy of OS (#35), I found the definition of 'condition' to be interesting:

 

CONDITION - The state of preservation of a comic book, often inaccurately used interchangeably with Grade

That's interesting, and accurate. Gamers count on collectors confusing the two.

 

I'd love to see a new definition included in OS:

 

COINED- A reconditioning process applied to mimic an unusual high state of preservation. The process may include dry cleaning, re-pressing or re-trimming. While re-trimming is widely condemed and will get a "restored" label if detected by pro-grading services, dry cleaning and re-pressing has been deemed undetectable.

"Coined" (reconditioned) is associated with "The Crackout Game" introduced to the "slabbed" comic market by coin collectors (coinees) as a means to manipulate printed label grades, thus increasing market value, on professionally graded and encapsulated collectibles. See Label Chasers.

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

Since the beginning, there has been a direct correlation between value & condition. The state of preservation of a book is what caused collectors to pay premiums for the finest examples they could find.

 

In today's market....grade is dictating value.

 

This 'shift' has created illusionary values, and the continued manipulation of structure will (IMO) cause prices to come crashing down in the not-so-distant future.

[october]

I am not specifically trying to pick on you. There are probably a dozen or so posters who continue to harp on things. I would just like to know exactly how all the things you rant and rave about have affected your collecting habits. It really is a simple question. I will repeat it for you.

 

What did you collect previously before you were enlightened to all the evil things that go on in the hobby, that you no longer collect because your beyond reproach ethical stance prevents you from doing?

 

I know precisely what you're trying to say...that unless you're willing to back it up, to physically do something, you shouldn't complain or point out wrong-doing...that you have no right.

 

So unless you actually go down to your local gas station and berate the owner, you've no right to complain about gas prices?

 

However, I'm going to humour you, as I'm one of those who 'continue to harp on things'.

 

This is what I've personally done, how I've changed my habits.

 

1 I will no longer submit anything to CGC, nor will I advise anyone else to do so, nor will I help them do so.

 

2 I will buy raw books in preference to slabbed wherever it's viable. Online is not an option, but at shows? Sure. I was at the one-day New York show in January and bought 29 books. None of them was in plastic, but in hand, I'll rely upon my own judgement.

 

3 I will no longer consider 9.6 or above books, as these, I feel, as the ones that are most likely to have 'reached their full potential'. Oh, and the market volatility that will occur when this sh!te finally filters down to the community in general is quite scary.

 

4 I have a list of dealers who I will not buy from, no matter what they have and how badly I 'need' it. Names on the list included ComicLink/Josh, Heritage, Steve Lauterbach, Matt Nelson, Doug Schmell, SNE and a number of others.

 

Now, is this putting a cramp in my style? Sure. But it's better than getting out entirely. Does it take out all risks? Course not...but it sure as hell diminishes them. Will it help change things? No...not on my own, but if others want to make their own personal decisions as to how they want to change, dependent upon how strongly they feel, and they do so, who knows?

 

But I tell you what it does do...it makes it easier to sleep at night knowing that you're not putting money directly into the hands of scumbags just because I so badly need that funny book.

 

Your post was in reply to me, but I didn't say those things.

[Red Hook]

We know. At least I think we know.

[Flaming_Telepath]

Andy, apologies if it looked misleading. I simply clicked 'reply' to the post I was looking at at the time.

 

[Bullet123]

I am not specifically trying to pick on you. There are probably a dozen or so posters who continue to harp on things. I would just like to know exactly how all the things you rant and rave about have affected your collecting habits. It really is a simple question. I will repeat it for you.

 

What did you collect previously before you were enlightened to all the evil things that go on in the hobby, that you no longer collect because your beyond reproach ethical stance prevents you from doing?

 

I know precisely what you're trying to say...that unless you're willing to back it up, to physically do something, you shouldn't complain or point out wrong-doing...that you have no right.

 

So unless you actually go down to your local gas station and berate the owner, you've no right to complain about gas prices?

 

However, I'm going to humour you, as I'm one of those who 'continue to harp on things'.

 

This is what I've personally done, how I've changed my habits.

 

1 I will no longer submit anything to CGC, nor will I advise anyone else to do so, nor will I help them do so.

 

2 I will buy raw books in preference to slabbed wherever it's viable. Online is not an option, but at shows? Sure. I was at the one-day New York show in January and bought 29 books. None of them was in plastic, but in hand, I'll rely upon my own judgement.

 

3 I will no longer consider 9.6 or above books, as these, I feel, as the ones that are most likely to have 'reached their full potential'. Oh, and the market volatility that will occur when this sh!te finally filters down to the community in general is quite scary.

 

4 I have a list of dealers who I will not buy from, no matter what they have and how badly I 'need' it. Names on the list included ComicLink/Josh, Heritage, Steve Lauterbach, Matt Nelson, Doug Schmell, SNE and a number of others.

 

Now, is this putting a cramp in my style? Sure. But it's better than getting out entirely. Does it take out all risks? Course not...but it sure as hell diminishes them. Will it help change things? No...not on my own, but if others want to make their own personal decisions as to how they want to change, dependent upon how strongly they feel, and they do so, who knows?

 

But I tell you what it does do...it makes it easier to sleep at night knowing that you're not putting money directly into the hands of scumbags just because I so badly need that funny book.

 

Thanks for answering a direct question (even if it wasn't directed at you) The point I am trying to make is that I take a different approach to the conspiracy theory. I assume that all books have reached their full potential when I purchase them, so there is no dissapointment on my part. I like the fact that Heritage gives you a wonderful archive of full sized scans to refer to, ( I wish dealers would do the same) I do not believe that everyone in the hobby is out to get me. I do not deal with certain dealers because I have had bad experiences but I do not go on the boards and borderline slander people without a shred of proof. Just because Heritage has a book that has been "potentialized" does not mean Heritage is the owner. Heritage is an auction sight which relys on consignments to hold their auctions. If you do not know who the consignor is, (and it might be Heritage ) I think it is just a black eye on the hobby to simply spout things as your version of the truth without a single shred of evidence.

[Red Hook]

I do not believe that everyone in the hobby is out to get me. I do not deal with certain dealers because I have had bad experiences but I do not go on the boards and borderline slander people without a shred of proof. Just because Heritage has a book that has been "potentialized" does not mean Heritage is the owner. Heritage is an auction sight which relys on consignments to hold their auctions. If you do not know who the consignor is, (and it might be Heritage ) I think it is just a black eye on the hobby to simply spout things as your version of the truth without a single shred of evidence.

 

I don't believe everyone in the hobby is out to get me either. That's your hyperbole, not mine.

 

I also have a list of dealers I don't deal with and the only reason I don't promote it widely is because I want people to make up their own minds who or who they don't want to deal with.

 

I do honestly think there is monkey business going on at Heritage, and I also believe that my saying so will have little or no effect on their business.

 

Anything else I can do for you?

[Forbush-Man]

I do not believe that everyone in the hobby is out to get me. I do not deal with certain dealers because I have had bad experiences but I do not go on the boards and borderline slander people without a shred of proof. Just because Heritage has a book that has been "potentialized" does not mean Heritage is the owner. Heritage is an auction sight which relys on consignments to hold their auctions. If you do not know who the consignor is, (and it might be Heritage ) I think it is just a black eye on the hobby to simply spout things as your version of the truth without a single shred of evidence.

 

I don't believe everyone in the hobby is out to get me either. That's your hyperbole, not mine.

 

I also have a list of dealers I don't deal with and the only reason I don't promote it widely is because I want people to make up their own minds who or who they don't want to deal with.

 

I do honestly think there is monkey business going on at Heritage, and I also believe that my saying so will have little or no effect on their business.

 

Anything else I can do for you?

 

[tth2]

Just because Heritage has a book that has been "potentialized" does not mean Heritage is the owner. Heritage is an auction sight which relys on consignments to hold their auctions. If you do not know who the consignor is, (and it might be Heritage ) I think it is just a black eye on the hobby to simply spout things as your version of the truth without a single shred of evidence.

[joe_collector]

Gold

 

When the lights go down

In the Florida town

Collectors are in for the evening

 

I fire up the press

Check out the spine stress

My heart beatin' time with the breathing

 

Crack out a VF

Press down a corner fold

'Cause people out there turnin' comics into gold

 

My buddy Jimmy Fey

Sellin' comics on EBay

He never liked being a sinner

 

But in his spare room,

Where it's quiet as a tomb

He presses comic books after dinner

 

Crack out a VF

Press down a corner fold

'Cause people out there turnin' comics into gold

 

'Cause people out there turnin' comics into gold

[Red Hook]

Just because Heritage has a book that has been "potentialized" does not mean Heritage is the owner. Heritage is an auction sight which relys on consignments to hold their auctions. If you do not know who the consignor is, (and it might be Heritage ) I think it is just a black eye on the hobby to simply spout things as your version of the truth without a single shred of evidence.

 

[tth2]

Whatever, Brad. It's just too bad that if someone doesn't want to join the "in crowd" and be "cool" by criticizing everything indiscriminately, they're immediately labeled as either a pollyana or made fun of by stupid photos such as the one you just posted. Gee, it feels just like grade school all over again, where no kid in his right mind would ever publicly say anything positive about school (even if it were true) because he would forever be labeled as a dork.

 

If you could provide even the most basic facts like how many issues on average in each Heritage auction are consigned vs. owned by Heritage, or even what Heritage does to influence consignors towards "improving" their books, then I might give more credence to your indiscriminate criticism.

 

On the other hand, I CAN relate my own personal experience with Heritage, including for the books I've consigned to them for November. I consigned a bunch of raw books that I recently procured and asked Heritage to submit them to CGC for slabbing. At no point did anyone at Heritage suggest I run the books by Heritage's "experts" to see if any of the books could have their potential maximized. I can assure you that if Heritage sent the books off themselves to be maximized without my consent (which I don't think they ever would), and I were to find out, there would be hell to pay.

 

I also consigned a bunch of slabbed books (previously and for this November), and at no point did anyone at Heritage suggest I either resub to CGC or have any of their potential maximized and then be resubbed. I know of another collector who in a previous auction consigned his slabbed books, and Heritage DID suggest he resub some of them to CGC to see if some of them might get a higher grade. At no point was it suggested, however, that any of them be maximized before being resubbed to CGC. It was just a shotgun submission to see if any of the books might benefit from CGC's alleged arbitrary grading. For the record, and I can verify this because I knew the pre-existing grades of the books that he authorized to be resubbed, of the 10-15 books that were resubbed, exactly ONE came back with a higher grade (9.4 became a 9.6). So much for Heritage's undue influence over CGC or CGC's totally arbitrary grading.

[batman_fan]

Whatever, Brad. It's just too bad that if someone doesn't want to join the "in crowd" and be "cool" by criticizing everything indiscriminately, they're immediately labeled as either a pollyana or made fun of by stupid photos such as the one you just posted. Gee, it feels just like grade school all over again, where no kid in his right mind would ever publicly say anything positive about school (even if it were true) because he would forever be labeled as a dork.

 

If you could provide even the most basic facts like how many issues on average in each Heritage auction are consigned vs. owned by Heritage, or even what Heritage does to influence consignors towards "improving" their books, then I might give more credence to your indiscriminate criticism.

 

On the other hand, I CAN relate my own personal experience with Heritage, including for the books I've consigned to them for November. I consigned a bunch of raw books that I recently procured and asked Heritage to submit them to CGC for slabbing. At no point did anyone at Heritage suggest I run the books by Heritage's "experts" to see if any of the books could have their potential maximized. I can assure you that if Heritage sent the books off themselves to be maximized without my consent (which I don't think they ever would), and I were to find out, there would be hell to pay.

 

I also consigned a bunch of slabbed books (previously and for this November), and at no point did anyone at Heritage suggest I either resub to CGC or have any of their potential maximized and then be resubbed. I know of another collector who in a previous auction consigned his slabbed books, and Heritage DID suggest he resub some of them to CGC to see if some of them might get a higher grade. At no point was it suggested, however, that any of them be maximized before being resubbed to CGC. It was just a shotgun submission to see if any of the books might benefit from CGC's alleged arbitrary grading. For the record, and I can verify this because I knew the pre-existing grades of the books that he authorized to be resubbed, of the 10-15 books that were resubbed, exactly ONE came back with a higher grade (9.4 became a 9.6). So much for Heritage's undue influence over CGC or CGC's totally arbitrary grading.

 

But you must acknowledge some of the recent sells of Heritage of "enhanced books" through a secondary company definitely looks odd and warrents further watching. Also, who do you think is resubbing all these books? Someone that really understands CGCs grading well enough to take a chance on getting a purple label. I don't know if something funny is going on, but I am definitely standing back and watching.

[Flaming_Telepath]

At no point did anyone at Heritage suggest I run the books by Heritage's "experts" to see if any of the books could have their potential maximized.....

 

....I also consigned a bunch of slabbed books (previously and for this November), and at no point did anyone at Heritage suggest I either resub to CGC or have any of their potential maximized and then be resubbed.

 

Tim, that's not how it works and I suspect you know it, too.

 

Books are consigned to Heritage. Heritage have the opportunity to view the books and gauge just how much of their 'potential' has been maximised. Heritage then shill bid their own auctions to secure the book, have the work done, and then relist in their new, improved condition.

 

Why would they suggest you get the work done yourself and only realise an 18% profit on the upgrade when they could benefit 100% from the work undertaken once they own it?

[tth2]

At no point did anyone at Heritage suggest I run the books by Heritage's "experts" to see if any of the books could have their potential maximized.....

 

....I also consigned a bunch of slabbed books (previously and for this November), and at no point did anyone at Heritage suggest I either resub to CGC or have any of their potential maximized and then be resubbed.

 

Tim, that's not how it works and I suspect you know it, too.

 

Books are consigned to Heritage. Heritage have the opportunity to view the books and gauge just how much of their 'potential' has been maximised. Heritage then shill bid their own auctions to secure the book, have the work done, and then relist in their new, improved condition.

 

Why would they suggest you get the work done yourself and only realise an 18% profit on the upgrade when they could benefit 100% from the work undertaken once they own it?

Nick, in fact, I'd wondered the same thing and had asked around. My sources indicate that in fact Heritage does NOT like to take this kind of inventory risk, because it involves paying the hammer price (granted they don't have to pay the BP and they're further subsidized by getting the seller's commission), paying pressing and resub fees, and then taking the risk that CGC won't give the book a higher grade. I know everyone here believes that pressing a book is a 100% guarantee for getting a higher grade, but it's just not so.

 

Think about it, if Heritage were into taking the inventory risk because it was a sure fire winner, wouldn't they be pressing the D books like crazy, and probably a lot of the McLaughlin Church books?

 

Honestly, I think a lot of the crack out, press and resub has been done by (i) consignors themselves who are trying to boost their previously purchased book before they sell the book on Heritage (and I have no doubt Heritage is willing to facilitate this when asked) and (ii) sharp-eyed dealers who are good at spotting books with "potential". Hell, Matt Nelson could be 90% of (ii), and perhaps many here don't consider him to be a third party but effectively the same as Heritage.

 

Relying only upon facts that I have confirmed, I know that the 9.2 JLA #1 and 9.2 JLA #7 that I sold on Heritage a few years ago were purchased at record prices, not by Heritage but by Josh Nathanson (who also apparently purchased the 9.2 Flash #105 in the same auction). I have not been able to verify if any work was done to the JLAs (the Flash #105 was definitely cleaned), but I know they all subsequently received 9.4s on resub, and the 9.4 JLA #7 was resold on Heritage for a modest profit, while the 9.4 JLA #1 and 9.4 Flash #105 were sold to JP for approximately $100K (who then subsequently resold them on Heritage as part of his fire sale for approx $70K in total).

 

Let's be clear, I am not denying in any way that a lot of funny business is going on. The facts are abundantly clear on that point. But, I think the fingers have been pointed at the wrong party in a lot of this, which is all I'm trying to say. It's one reason why Brad's stupid picture irritated me so much. Finally, if Heritage are the ones doing the scamming (i.e., taking the inventory risk I refer to above), why in the world would they provide us with such a fine image archive which has been the source for identifying 90+% of the monkey business going on here? If they took down the images after the conclusion of each auction (like EVERYONE else in the business), I think a lot of this would have flown completely under the radar. If Heritage are crooks, they are extremely stupid crooks, and I don't think they are stupid.

[Red Hook]

Tim, the fact is that you have an oil tanker full of money invested in graded books, you're going to be selling a chunk of them through Heritage and you are in complete denial over the fact that the game's afoot. Or worse, you know things are not right, but you don't want to see Heritage being questioned right before they start showing your books.

 

Who are your "sources" that all is well? Most likely an industry insider. Probably someone from....Heritage....right?

 

Amazing that you could have been on these boards, have read about the kind of practices going on, and still completely block out all the possibilities from your consciousness that it's a big game. It's quite an amazing ability. My pictures are simply ways of expressing exactly what your position represents in my opinion. You love my pictures...except when they hit one of your own nerves.

 

If I recall correcty, you said you're about to consign a load of your highgrade Flash's to Heritage's November Signature Auction, so I can totally understand your attempt to spin the situation to your advantage. I can understand your admitted self-interest on this topic. Go right ahead. But don't expect the rest of us to act as if it's Groundhog Day or that it's September 25, 2003!

 

Relax Tim, you'll do fine on your books, but don't be surprised if all the 9.4's reappear in six or twelve months, as 9.6s....on Heritage. You think these guys are amateurs? Do whatever you want with your books, but please please PLEASE don't feed us your pablum. Have a little respect. Jeez.

 

Where the hell have you been the last two years, my friend?

 

Did Filter81's accusations not raise at least some concern? He has sources too. Everyone has sources. I spoke with Adam......his material is worth at least serious consideration.

 

The quotes below came from one of the most important threads to appear on the boards this year....

 

Are these the same book?

 

 

I don't want to speculate carelessly, but Filter might be on to something here. If I'm a seller who has used Heritage in the past, I'd be pissed to see one of my items listed with this Lewis Wayne Gallery.

 

Who knows if they actually paid that hefty 20% buyer's premium on their purchases? Its not a fair market price if you got a 20% discount built in.

 

In my opinion, this is what separates Heritage from the other clean/press/resubmitters out there.

 

I don't want to speculate carelessly either, so I'm just going to write what I know, offer my OPINIONS, and let people reach their own conclusions.

 

1) As far as I can tell, virtually every one of the comics and original art pieces for sale by LewisWayneGallery were first listed through Heritage.

2)Some of the items for sale by LewisWayneGallery are even items from the private collection of Jim Halperin.

3)At least one of the more expensive items was originally a lower grade when it sold through Heritage, and is now a higher grade.

4) Jim Halperin was in trouble with the law a while back for using a coin grading/encapsulation service to inflate the grades of his coins, and then sell them through a Heritage-backed company at inflated prices.

 

As many of you know, I was one of the bidders for the Marvel 1 CGC 8.5 Denver copy now up for sale on eBay under the name LewisWayneGallery. I was participating via phone bidding, when I was outbid by some small amount. ($100 or $1000 I don't remember.) The bid increment at the time was $10,000. If I wanted to outbid this bidder, I believe I was told I was going to have to raise my bid by $20,000 to defeat the bid that had outbid me. (I might have been told $10,000, but I think I was told $20,000.) So if I wanted to buy the book it was going to cost me $170,000-$180,000.

 

IF it is true that Heritage is buying books that they are selling on consignment, then I think there is a serious problem. In this example, they would have manipulated their bidding system to get the book as cheaply as possible. When you figure they paid "$161,000" minus a 15% buyers premium at the time and 10% sellers premium, they would have essentially been buying the book for $120,750. Essentially offering the book to themselves at almost $60,000 less than anyone else participating in the auction would have the opportunity to purchase the book for.

 

IF this situation occured the way I believe it may have, the seller loses money because before it happened I was prepared to bid higher. Also, the buyer doesn't get the book, even though I was prepared to pay higher than anyone else. And Heritage gets a book at almost $60,000 below fair market value.

 

Here is where I think it gets really bad though... Has anyone here ever sat down and really seriously taken an in-depth look at Heritage's previous auctions archive? On the high end, high grade Golden age books (worth $10k and up and in CGC 7.5 or higher) does anyone realize what percentage of these books have sold through Heritage once in one grade, only to resurface 1 to 2 years later in a considerably higher grade with a pedigree designation or nic cage designation or whatever removed from the label?

 

And who exactly is doing this? The big spenders I know who particpate in Heritage auctions don't generally take part in the press/resub game as far as I can tell. The people who do press/resub books for a living as far as I know typically use Silver/Bronze age books, and have their own avenues (eBay IDs, websites etc) to sell their merchandise. I can't think of anyone in the hobby that would be a likely suspect for buying these $10,000+ books through Heritage, cleaning/pressing them, and re-selling them through Heritage again. And even if I could think of someone who might likely be doing this, how could someone make money doing this? If Heritage is getting close to a 30% cut (not 30% of the profits, but 30% of the sale), whoever is doing this would have to DOUBLE his money EVERY time, just to come out ahead.

 

Does anyone else think its possible that its not just Heritage employees, but Heritage owners that are using their auction house as an opportunity to get books at below market value (since they don't have to pay the premiums), having the books regraded to a higher grade, and then selling them back through their own auction house and affiliated auction houses at inflated prices? (And before everyone laughs at me, please re-read the article I linked in my first post. Apparently Halperin has been conning people since he was a child, and was in serious trouble for doing almost the same thing with coins not too long ago.)

 

My own personal opinion, is that the stuff that we know regarding this situation is only a VERY small percentage of what is actually going on. I am concerned that as the problem continues to occur, at some point some sort of law enforcement agency will get involved, there will be a big scandal, and the entire collecting community will suffer.

 

 

What do your sources say about that, Tim!!

 

No, it's fine if you want to pooh pooh it all....but don't give the rest of us grief if we show more than a little concern over this.

 

See, no funny pictures. WORDS!

 

Brad

[Bullet123]

Tim, the fact is that you have an oil tanker full of money invested in graded books, you're going to be selling a chunk of them through Heritage and you are in complete denial over the fact that the game's afoot. Or worse, you know things are not right, but you don't want to see Heritage being questioned right before they start showing your books.

 

Who are your "sources" that all is well? Most likely an industry insider. Probably someone from....Heritage....right?

 

Amazing that you could have been on these boards, have read about the kind of practices going on, and still completely block out all the possibilities from your consciousness that it's a big game. It's quite an amazing ability. My pictures are simply ways of expressing exactly what your position represents in my opinion. You love my pictures...except when they hit one of your own nerves.

 

If I recall correcty, you said you're about to consign a load of your highgrade Flash's to Heritage's November Signature Auction, so I can totally understand your attempt to spin the situation to your advantage. I can understand your admitted self-interest on this topic. Go right ahead. But don't expect the rest of us to act as if it's Groundhog Day or that it's September 25, 2003!

 

Relax Tim, you'll do fine on your books, but don't be surprised if all the 9.4's reappear in six or twelve months, as 9.6s....on Heritage. You think these guys are amateurs? Do whatever you want with your books, but please please PLEASE don't feed us your pablum. Have a little respect. Jeez.

 

Where the hell have you been the last two years, my friend?

 

Did Filter81's accusations not raise at least some concern? He has sources too. Everyone has sources. I spoke with Adam......his material is worth at least serious consideration.

 

The quotes below came from one of the most important threads to appear on the boards this year....

 

Are these the same book?

 

 

I don't want to speculate carelessly, but Filter might be on to something here. If I'm a seller who has used Heritage in the past, I'd be pissed to see one of my items listed with this Lewis Wayne Gallery.

 

Who knows if they actually paid that hefty 20% buyer's premium on their purchases? Its not a fair market price if you got a 20% discount built in.

 

In my opinion, this is what separates Heritage from the other clean/press/resubmitters out there.

 

I don't want to speculate carelessly either, so I'm just going to write what I know, offer my OPINIONS, and let people reach their own conclusions.

 

1) As far as I can tell, virtually every one of the comics and original art pieces for sale by LewisWayneGallery were first listed through Heritage.

2)Some of the items for sale by LewisWayneGallery are even items from the private collection of Jim Halperin.

3)At least one of the more expensive items was originally a lower grade when it sold through Heritage, and is now a higher grade.

4) Jim Halperin was in trouble with the law a while back for using a coin grading/encapsulation service to inflate the grades of his coins, and then sell them through a Heritage-backed company at inflated prices.

 

As many of you know, I was one of the bidders for the Marvel 1 CGC 8.5 Denver copy now up for sale on eBay under the name LewisWayneGallery. I was participating via phone bidding, when I was outbid by some small amount. ($100 or $1000 I don't remember.) The bid increment at the time was $10,000. If I wanted to outbid this bidder, I believe I was told I was going to have to raise my bid by $20,000 to defeat the bid that had outbid me. (I might have been told $10,000, but I think I was told $20,000.) So if I wanted to buy the book it was going to cost me $170,000-$180,000.

 

IF it is true that Heritage is buying books that they are selling on consignment, then I think there is a serious problem. In this example, they would have manipulated their bidding system to get the book as cheaply as possible. When you figure they paid "$161,000" minus a 15% buyers premium at the time and 10% sellers premium, they would have essentially been buying the book for $120,750. Essentially offering the book to themselves at almost $60,000 less than anyone else participating in the auction would have the opportunity to purchase the book for.

 

IF this situation occured the way I believe it may have, the seller loses money because before it happened I was prepared to bid higher. Also, the buyer doesn't get the book, even though I was prepared to pay higher than anyone else. And Heritage gets a book at almost $60,000 below fair market value.

 

Here is where I think it gets really bad though... Has anyone here ever sat down and really seriously taken an in-depth look at Heritage's previous auctions archive? On the high end, high grade Golden age books (worth $10k and up and in CGC 7.5 or higher) does anyone realize what percentage of these books have sold through Heritage once in one grade, only to resurface 1 to 2 years later in a considerably higher grade with a pedigree designation or nic cage designation or whatever removed from the label?

 

And who exactly is doing this? The big spenders I know who particpate in Heritage auctions don't generally take part in the press/resub game as far as I can tell. The people who do press/resub books for a living as far as I know typically use Silver/Bronze age books, and have their own avenues (eBay IDs, websites etc) to sell their merchandise. I can't think of anyone in the hobby that would be a likely suspect for buying these $10,000+ books through Heritage, cleaning/pressing them, and re-selling them through Heritage again. And even if I could think of someone who might likely be doing this, how could someone make money doing this? If Heritage is getting close to a 30% cut (not 30% of the profits, but 30% of the sale), whoever is doing this would have to DOUBLE his money EVERY time, just to come out ahead.

 

Does anyone else think its possible that its not just Heritage employees, but Heritage owners that are using their auction house as an opportunity to get books at below market value (since they don't have to pay the premiums), having the books regraded to a higher grade, and then selling them back through their own auction house and affiliated auction houses at inflated prices? (And before everyone laughs at me, please re-read the article I linked in my first post. Apparently Halperin has been conning people since he was a child, and was in serious trouble for doing almost the same thing with coins not too long ago.)

 

My own personal opinion, is that the stuff that we know regarding this situation is only a VERY small percentage of what is actually going on. I am concerned that as the problem continues to occur, at some point some sort of law enforcement agency will get involved, there will be a big scandal, and the entire collecting community will suffer.

 

 

What do your sources say about that, Tim!!

 

No, it's fine if you want to pooh pooh it all....but don't give the rest of us grief if we show more than a little concern over this.

 

See, no funny pictures. WORDS!

 

Brad

 

Even if Heritage employees are purchasing the books, show me in the auction terms where it says they do not have to pay the premiums like everyone else?

 

Also, the part where Filter says he was outbid by less than the increment online, this happens all the time in the live portion of the auction. The auctioneer will sometimes except a less than the next increment bid and sometimes they wont. Also if you bid 150,000 and someone else previously bid 151,000 for a book even though the extra 1,000 is not a "next increment" it will still make that person the winning bidder. That is simmply a flaw in the auction system. Some auction houses only let you bid in specific increments (Mastronet comes to mind) while most others use the format that Heritage uses where you do not have to bid specific increments.

[THE_BEYONDER]

This point is the big one:

 

My own personal opinion, is that the stuff that we know regarding this situation is only a VERY small percentage of what is actually going on. I am concerned that as the problem continues to occur, at some point some sort of law enforcement agency will get involved, there will be a big scandal, and the entire collecting community will suffer

 

If this does happen, and the scandal reaches the masses via mainstream media.....the specs are going to dump their investments in a hurry & exit the 'hobby' forever.

 

This will be what finally bursts the bubble.

 

The crash of the 90s will look like a walk in the park in comparison.

 

If Heritage goes down due to the crack/press/resub game.....it will only be a matter of time before CGC itself comes under scrutiny by simply being the means in which the game was played.

 

It's going to get ugly.

[Red Hook]

I'm not seeing armageddon here. I'm hoping it doesn't get ugly. I hope no collectors who have invested huge chunks of dough (like Bullet and Tim) lose their investment value.

 

BTW......does it say anywhere on the Heritage site that their employees can bid on auctions, or is this info anecdotal?

[THE_BEYONDER]

I don't want to see anyone lose their shirts(houses?) in this. But one has to understand that perception is everything, and if a scandal hits the mainstream media, investors will drop their 'stocks' in a heartbeat.