Manufactured Gold

[mrwoogieman]

But believing in CGC's ability to detect Ewert-like trimming with anything approaching consistency is living in fantasy land.

 

A careful buyer must assume that some percentage of high grade blue label books that are on the market have had some of the following work done to them: cleaned, pressed, disassembled, staples switched, and trimmed too.

[Foolkiller]

But believing in CGC's ability to detect Ewert-like trimming with anything approaching consistency is living in fantasy land.

 

A careful buyer must assume that some percentage of high grade blue label books that are on the market have had some of the following work done to them: cleaned, pressed, disassembled, staples switched, and trimmed too.

 

I agree with that.

[Norrin_Radd]

But believing in CGC's ability to detect Ewert-like trimming with anything approaching consistency is living in fantasy land.

 

A careful buyer must assume that some percentage of high grade blue label books that are on the market have had some of the following work done to them: cleaned, pressed, disassembled, staples switched, and trimmed too.

 

It's not just HG anymore.

 

GA comics can be expensive in mid-grade, so we are seeing some activity there as well. If it can happen to Boy Comics #17, it can happen anywhere.

 

No valuable "improvable" comic is safe, it would seem.

[Red Hook]

So in essence, CGC's restoration check continues to undergo a reality check.

 

It's clearly not as infallible as advertised, and until they publish a clear concise complete list...ON THEIR WEBSITE....of what treatments they do or don't consider restoration.....the buying public will be left scratching their heads and wondering what exactly could be in the slab they purchased.

 

There were assurances given at the time of the Ewert outbreak, that things would be revised, new systems put in place. But I've seen no evidence of any of it. So I'll remain skeptical until it's proven that anything has changed at all. I don't think that's being unfair at all.

 

And Brian, this is about so much more than pressing. There hasn't been a good pressing-only thread on the boards in a long time. Things have moved beyond that. Given the growing list of examples Master Chief is producing, I'm becoming more confused than ever about what CGC allows through or doesn't.

 

CGC may decline the position of marketplace cops, but they've certainly embraced the role of arbiter of all things acceptable or not when it comes to restoration. They are certainly accountable on that end as far as I'm concerned. And don't even talk to me about pedigree designation.

[Foolkiller]

So in essence, CGC's restoration check continues to undergo a reality check.

 

It's clearly not as infallible as advertised, and until they publish a clear concise complete list...ON THEIR WEBSITE....of what treatments they do or don't consider restoration.....the buying public will be left scratching their heads and wondering what exactly could be in the slab they purchased.

 

There were assurances given at the time of the Ewert outbreak, that things would be revised, new systems put in place. But I've seen no evidence of any of it. So I'll remain skeptical until it's proven that anything has changed at all. I don't think that's being unfair at all.

 

And Brian, this is about so much more than pressing. There hasn't been a good pressing-only thread on the boards in a long time. Things have moved beyond that. Given the growing list of examples Master Chief is producing, I'm becoming more confused than ever about what CGC allows through or doesn't.

 

CGC may decline the position of marketplace cops, but they've certainly embraced the role of arbiter of all things acceptable or not when it comes to restoration. They are certainly accountable on that end as far as I'm concerned. And don't even talk to me about pedigree designation.

 

i agree basically with what you are saying... especially about the confusion about what is or is not allowed.

[Red Hook]

I will add, that none of this is without the potential for swift resolution, if CGC would just show some chutzpah and nail their flag to the mast already. Enough with the industrial espionage!

 

(when I speak of CGC I speak of course of the company and it's business model....not any particular individuals....)

[Flaming_Telepath]

So in essence, CGC's restoration check continues to undergo a reality check.

 

It's clearly not as infallible as advertised, and until they publish a clear concise complete list...ON THEIR WEBSITE....of what treatments they do or don't consider restoration.....the buying public will be left scratching their heads and wondering what exactly could be in the slab they purchased.

 

There were assurances given at the time of the Ewert outbreak, that things would be revised, new systems put in place. But I've seen no evidence of any of it. So I'll remain skeptical until it's proven that anything has changed at all. I don't think that's being unfair at all.

 

And Brian, this is about so much more than pressing. There hasn't been a good pressing-only thread on the boards in a long time. Things have moved beyond that. Given the growing list of examples Master Chief is producing, I'm becoming more confused than ever about what CGC allows through or doesn't.

 

CGC may decline the position of marketplace cops, but they've certainly embraced the role of arbiter of all things acceptable or not when it comes to restoration. They are certainly accountable on that end as far as I'm concerned. And don't even talk to me about pedigree designation.

 

i agree basically with what you are saying... especially about the confusion about what is or is not allowed.

 

And confusion leads to conjecture, which leads to assumptions, which leads to...

 

This is 75% of why there has been so much 'negativity' and 'witch-hunting' on these boards. Make things 'transparent' and 'consumer-friendly' and you might just lay to rest a great proportion of the dissatisfaction.

 

That goes for CGC and dealers alike. Disclosure. Please?

[EastEnd]

Additionally, if a lawyer uses every legal tool at his disposal to help his client, then he’s doing what he’s supposed to be doing. The same goes for a doctor and a mechanic. If Matt uses tools at his disposal so that his work cannot be detected, this is good. This is very good.

 

No.

It's very bad if a lawyer gets a crazy mass murderer "off" using all the tools at his disosal and the crazy killer goes out and kills some more people.

 

My gosh, the proposition above is a frightening one... the ends justifies the means. If everyone thought like this the world would be in utter chaos. Accepting practicalities is fine, as is the pursuit of self-interest. But as an "enlightened species" on this great Earth that seeks to live in civilized communities, we can't ignore the value systems that we've developed to keep socially damaging behavior in check. Deception of almost any kind in the pursuit of self-interest is at a minimum unethical and in many instances outright wrong. To shine a light on it and speak out against it, as many are doing on these boards, is to be applauded.

[Harvey Dude]

As for Lauterbach, I think there's a lot of conjecture, and not a ton of meat on the bones to the "evidence".

 

At what point does it go beyond conjecture?

 

Green Lantern #12

 

Sub-Mariner #40

 

Brave & Bold #28

[Harvey Dude]

That goes for CGC and dealers alike. Disclosure. Please?

 

[Scheradon]

difference is, Ewert did something the market clearly does not accept. Right now, that's not true of pressing. So before disclosure is mandated, shouldn't the public ask for it overwhelming so it gains acceptance? Requiring disclosure to me is like putting the cart before the horse when the practice seems to have debatable issues to it.

 

I'm not just talking about pressing (which I have not been convinced that it isn't being asked for by the community, whether they accept it or not). How about disassembly? I don't believe this is widely accepted by the market at all. The list seems to keep expanding. What's next? Where does it end?

[Foolkiller]

difference is, Ewert did something the market clearly does not accept. Right now, that's not true of pressing. So before disclosure is mandated, shouldn't the public ask for it overwhelming so it gains acceptance? Requiring disclosure to me is like putting the cart before the horse when the practice seems to have debatable issues to it.

 

I'm not just talking about pressing (which I have not been convinced that it isn't being asked for by the community, whether they accept it or not). How about disassembly? I don't believe this is widely accepted by the market at all. The list seems to keep expanding. What's next? Where does it end?

 

The last part of your statement is impossible for me not to be concerned with. Disassembly, staple replacement etc. should all be of concern. but then again, makes me wonder why I even collect comics if this is what I have to worry about.

[burntboy]

Wow - excellent and thought-provoking post............

 

too many points made to elaborate on each, but suffice it to say that i agree with much of your overall perspective (of course, i'm a sucker for an extremely well- written post)...........

 

and i applaud much of the debate that follows................interesting stuff.........

[Matt Nelson]

I'd like to expand on my earlier post concerning disassembly, which will hopefully put some people's minds at ease.

 

The period during CGC's transition concerning their opinion on how to account for disassembled books was years ago, when pressing showed up on their radar. But once they made their decision, I'm pretty sure disassembled books were being nailed left and right, which in turn discouraged the practice. This doesn't mean that nobody disassembles books anymore. It simply means that it has been added to the list of no-no's, and anyone with a reputation or investment to protect will likely not be doing it today.

 

Are there disassembled books in blue holders? I'm sure there are, but I think that number is very small, and most were probably submitted a long time ago. I believe CGC is very capable of spotting disassembly, and disassembled books submitted today are caught. If any get through, it's got to be a fraction of a fraction, and due to the fact that CGC cannot prove to themselves that the book was indeed disassembled.

[Red Hook]

But Matt....

 

Steve's own quote from this thread on Oct. 10, left us with a different impression.....

 

 

One of the OLD ways of pressing books was to disassemble it, soak the pages and cover, dry the pages, re-fold the pages and put it back together. Soaking the cover and pages most of the time would make them look cleaned and is considered restoration (cleaning) by CGC. That is why we have stated that disassembled pressing is not something that should be done and we downgrade when books have defects from being pressed incorrectly. When a book is only disassembled AND the staples are not put back correctly the submitter also takes a big chance of getting a qualified grade for staples replaced. Disassembly and reassembly of a comic book, in and of itself, is not considered to be restoration. Almost all of the time that a comic book is disassembled and reassembled, restoration is performed to it because the reason that it was taken apart was to restore it. The disassembled pressing I mention is a primitive and invasive method of pressing that can result in the book receiving a lower grade and that is why anyone should discourage it.

 

I think that clearly states that even if they were aware that a book had been disassembled...discounting other factors....it would be given a Universal grade.

 

Disassembly is not on the list of no-no's. Replacing staples may be, but not disassembly. Thus the confusion.

[infinite_comics-migration]

This doesn't mean that nobody disassembles books anymore. It simply means that it has been added to the list of no-no's...

 

It has? Seems like just the opposite to me - since it's not considered resto by CGC, it's fine to do. I am confused... guess I'd better re-read this thread from the very beginning

[infinite_comics-migration]

Ah, I guess I'm not that confused. Thanks Red

[Matt Nelson]

But Matt....

 

Steve's own quote from this thread on Oct. 10, left us with a different impression.....

 

 

One of the OLD ways of pressing books was to disassemble it, soak the pages and cover, dry the pages, re-fold the pages and put it back together. Soaking the cover and pages most of the time would make them look cleaned and is considered restoration (cleaning) by CGC. That is why we have stated that disassembled pressing is not something that should be done and we downgrade when books have defects from being pressed incorrectly. When a book is only disassembled AND the staples are not put back correctly the submitter also takes a big chance of getting a qualified grade for staples replaced. Disassembly and reassembly of a comic book, in and of itself, is not considered to be restoration. Almost all of the time that a comic book is disassembled and reassembled, restoration is performed to it because the reason that it was taken apart was to restore it. The disassembled pressing I mention is a primitive and invasive method of pressing that can result in the book receiving a lower grade and that is why anyone should discourage it.

 

I think that clearly states that even if they were aware that a book had been disassembled...discounting other factors....it would be given a Universal grade.

 

Disassembly is not on the list of no-no's. Replacing staples may be, but not disassembly. Thus the confusion.

 

But read the sentence right before your highlighted one..."When a book is only disassembled AND the staples are not put back correctly the submitter also takes a big chance of getting a qualified grade for staples replaced." The issue here is not whether disassembly is restoration, but whether CGC can spot it.

 

The definition is moot, as I said earlier. We're talking about the practicality of the situation, and the bottom line is that there is a good chance CGC will nail a book that's disassembled, regardless of whether they find restoration or not. The threat of a purple/green label on a book of value will most certainly land disassembly on the no-no list.

[infinite_comics-migration]

The issue here is not whether disassembly is restoration, but whether CGC can spot it.

 

I beg to differ.

 

there is a good chance CGC will nail a book that's disassembled, regardless of whether they find restoration or not.

 

Not as long as you reassemble it right.

[Matt Nelson]

The issue here is not whether disassembly is restoration, but whether CGC can spot it.

 

I beg to differ.

 

Please explain.