Manufactured Gold

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

I consider myself about as knowledgeable a collector as anyone when it comes to restoration and I would not pay less for a pressed book if it was a book that I otherwise wanted. Given the rising prices on books, I am sure I'm not alone.

 

This is not merely about Pressing. Its about the entire resub culture, and all the various examples (well beyond Pressing) that have been detailed ad naseum on this thread.

 

If these guys took so much of the market's buying power with them, why are prices on high grade stuff still going up? Some stuff sure, but a lot of books are off their peak prices, and many more sit without a sale.

 

And how many of those guys left the hobby because of pressing? I know Drummy didn't. He just adjusted his buying due to the rising costs of what he previously collected. Filosa also didn't stop buying because of pressing, and I am sure that Fantastic_Four also did not. I believe Bleeker_Bob was back in the hobby briefly then left a few months later and that his fiancee's (now his wife's) complaints about his spending had more to do with his curbed buying than anything else. I don't know HooDeeHoo, so can't speak to his circumstances -- but my recollection is that he disappeared from these forums long before the pressing issue ever became a popular topic among some of the posters.

 

Are you telling me that all the revelations on this board over the last two years had NOTHING to do with them selling of large portions off their high grade collections?

 

When are we going to see the price drops that come with this realization of "the big picture"?

 

If you got your head out of your arse long enough, you might just find a few.

[THE_BEYONDER]

What if pressing was detectable?

[qualitycomix]

I'm just going to say this: Wouldn't this debate a heckuva lot easier if you disclosed and ended the debate? If the sales data available says disclosure of pressing does not really impact sales, why not do it and end the entire controversey and take the teeth out of the other side's argument.

 

I've maintained that it doesn't matter to most whether a book is pressed or not.

 

Nor do I feel it should be "mandatory" but I think it could be ended Matt if say, you started disclosing whether or not a book has been pressed. Then if the books have done just as well, it certainly would force the "disclosure" crew to be satisfied, and you would have the evidence that indicates that pressing has little impact on most collectors buying habits.

 

 

I agree. Maybe Matt could "sacrifice" a month's worth of books and show what pressed books do vs. non pressed books. So Matt, wanna be the guinea pig?

 

What about the NOD dealers? Aren't the other NOD guys selling books with disclosure and keeping track of results like you did? Seems like we should have more than just one seller's data points if we're going to try to piece together a real sense of what the market thinks of restored books.

 

Most of the rest of the NOD do not have books pressed at all and thus there is no data there either.

 

The X-Men #4 for instance was disclosed to me after I asked, after I had purchased the book.

[Lazyboy]

You mean the guys benefiting from pressing and the non-disclosure of it don't consider it restoration. I see a fairly clear line of division between buyers and sellers on this area. A couple of exceptions, but still.....

 

Remember when I sold that FF#53 last year and disclosed pressing in the auction? It sold for just shy of a record price to a dealer. So apparently it isn't just collectors who are on the buying end of this, nor is it just dealers who are on the pressing end of this.

 

Then another question arises. Has the dealer who bought it sold it? If so, did they disclose the pressing and how much $$$ did they make/lose?

[Lazyboy]

A nice test would be to sell 2 identical graded books, same grade, only 1 was pressed to achieve the grade. Disclose the one that was pressed, my hunch is that the average collector will pay the same for either one.

 

In theory, I would be interested in seeing this happen as well. However, in practice, I can't see how you could possibly control the many, many other variables that would affect the sale price.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

If you got your head out of your arse long enough, you might just find a few.

 

Whether meant in jest or not, that's a low blow to Scott and I apologize.

 

As for the matter of price drops, you and I could both produce a dozen examples of books that are selling for either more or less then they were in the past, and the other could find a way to rationalize away the data.

 

I still maintain that in any market, price action is a lagging indicator of market health. More pertinent are things like inventory levels and DOM (Days on Market). Right now, inventories are high, not only on dealer and consignment sites, but also on ebay and eBay Stores and most books tend to sit a while.

 

As for the reasons why the Forumites I mentioned got out of high grade, well, I know from communicating with a couple of them that among their reasons were a certain waning of confidence in the CGC product. When your third party objectivity and ability to spot restoration comes into question, confidence will wane.

[FFB]

I consider myself about as knowledgeable a collector as anyone when it comes to restoration and I would not pay less for a pressed book if it was a book that I otherwise wanted. Given the rising prices on books, I am sure I'm not alone.

 

This is not merely about Pressing. Its about the entire resub culture, and all the various examples (well beyond Pressing) that have been detailed ad naseum on this thread.

 

OK, fair enough George. But the truth is, resubbing doesn't bother me with or without pressing. I graded a big chunk of my collection in 2004, and then when I went to sell it in 2005, I regraded most of the books. There were quite a few books where I was a grade off either way on a regrade and I consider myself to be a pretty good and consistent grader. I am not naive and I know that not all resubs are just grading discrepancies from one day to the next. But some of them are, and the fact is, I do not expect CGC or anyone else to be even 90% consistent from one day to the next on grading. I know a lot of collectors who are considered excellent graders by many on these boards, and I've seen them change their opinions of the grade of a book from one day to the next, or one month to the next.

 

The truth is, if people weren't spending crazy multiples for .2 differences in grades, few people would even care about a .2 or even .4 bump on a resub. But this irrational (to me, anyway) willingness to pay 4X 9.2 price for a 9.4 that looks like a soft 9.4 is not the fault of CGC. It's the fault of label chasers who want to own the highest graded copy. Granted, I firmly believe that it's their right to spend their money however they want. But I don't believe their willingness to pay crazy multiples necessarily justifies them in placing such extreme reliance on CGC in having day-to-day 100% consistency on something as subjective as grading comics. The hyper-multiples being paid are, I believe, at times the result of the buyers' misunderstanding of just how reliable CGC (or really anyone else) is at grading every comic book consistently. And given the multiples being paid, it is human nature for people who think that a book was graded too harshly to crack it and send it back in for a regrade. The system and the market are set up that way, and all the hand-wringing in the world isn't going to change that.

 

Now, this isn't to say that the worst of the value-squeezing practices are ok. They're not. The Sensation we saw in this thread that was disassembled should be noted as such on the label. I'm no fan of the green or purple labels and so I won't advocate for the book to be in a particular color label, but the fact that it was disassembled and then reassembled (and that's the key here) should be disclosed because that is something that virtually everyone considers "disclosure-worthy," whether it meets any one particular definition of "restoration" or not.

 

If these guys took so much of the market's buying power with them, why are prices on high grade stuff still going up? Some stuff sure, but a lot of books are off their peak prices, and many more sit without a sale.

 

And how many of those guys left the hobby because of pressing? I know Drummy didn't. He just adjusted his buying due to the rising costs of what he previously collected. Filosa also didn't stop buying because of pressing, and I am sure that Fantastic_Four also did not. I believe Bleeker_Bob was back in the hobby briefly then left a few months later and that his fiancee's (now his wife's) complaints about his spending had more to do with his curbed buying than anything else. I don't know HooDeeHoo, so can't speak to his circumstances -- but my recollection is that he disappeared from these forums long before the pressing issue ever became a popular topic among some of the posters.

 

Are you telling me that all the revelations on this board over the last two years had NOTHING to do with them selling of large portions off their high grade collections?

 

I know it had nothing to do with Steve Filosa selling his books. He was one of the most vocal "I don't care about pressing and it isn't restoration" posters here.

 

I believe I know why Drummy sold his books because he told me when he sold them, and it had nothing to do with pressing. This is not to say that Drummy thinks pressing is ok or should not be disclosed. Not at all. But his shift to mid-grade FFs was, according to Drummy, a result of the increasing prices being realized on the high grade books he was collecting and his own personal circumstances.

 

Fantastic_Four was a restoration information junkie. He was way ahead of the curve of most of the people here when it came to learning about restoration in general and pressing in particular, and I know for a fact that he had some of his own books pressed because he talked about it openly. So yes, I am quite confident that this pressing topic had nothing to do with him slowing his collecting, if that's what he did. (And I don't know if he did. I just know that he stopped posting. The dude had a metal Magneto mask that he took pictures of himself wearing. Do you honestly think he's gone from the hobby for good? )

 

As for Bleeker_Bob, I already said what I understood to be his primary reason for slowing or stopping his spending. Whether and to what extent the pressing issue may have contributed, I don't know.

 

HooDeeDoo, I don't know what happened. Do you?

 

When are we going to see the price drops that come with this realization of "the big picture"?

 

If you got your head out of your arse long enough, you might just find a few.

 

Was that necessary?

[FFB]

What if pressing was detectable?

 

What if my grandmother had balls?

 

She'd be my grandfather.

[FFB]

You mean the guys benefiting from pressing and the non-disclosure of it don't consider it restoration. I see a fairly clear line of division between buyers and sellers on this area. A couple of exceptions, but still.....

 

Remember when I sold that FF#53 last year and disclosed pressing in the auction? It sold for just shy of a record price to a dealer. So apparently it isn't just collectors who are on the buying end of this, nor is it just dealers who are on the pressing end of this.

 

Then another question arises. Has the dealer who bought it sold it? If so, did they disclose the pressing and how much $$$ did they make/lose?

 

It was Crazy Eddie. Call him and ask hi... NO WAIT! Post a thread here and demand that he respond and call him all sorts of names until he does!!!!

[Ze-man]

Ze, I can barely type fast enough with all of these posts coming in! I've already answered your question, so I'm moving on to others.

 

The only way the few are right is if they become the many...this is Mark's dream anyway.

 

 

Well, no you didn't answer my question. You said I was incorrect by saying it seems alot of people would like to be informed a book was worked on.

 

My question was this

 

Why do you feel it is ok to NOT tell people openly that you pressed the book they are buying from you? Besides the money part, I really would like to know how you feel withholding information like this is in any way shape, or form...a good thing for the hobby?

 

Sure it was a loaded question Matt, one that we obviously already knew the answer to. It is about Maximizing profits, nothing more.

 

To be perfectly honest with you, everything else you have said is nothing more then rhetoric.

 

You are really good at what you do Matt, and are raking it in because of this crazy CGC resub climate (one that you did not create btw). I wish you would have just stuck with your true calling,..i.e.restoration/conservation. But I know that takes too long, the lure of quick money is what it is all about. Too hard to resist. Even you can see it is all self serving Matt,people wanting books pressed for asthetics, or you pressing them for nothing more then a bump in grade. Just because it is what the people want does not mean YOU have to give it to them. It was a decision you made, and not only did you make it.. you are running with it bro. Being made aware of these recent trends has made me stop collecting alot of books that I really enjoyed. You will say that it is not your fault,and it has always been around.. I agree with you. But does that make it right to continue to do so? This whole pressing resub game has nothing to do with preserving, or conserving books. Or for that matter helping the hobby move foward.(unless you consider creating higher grade books helpful because that is what the people want) Seeing a large group of cliental that craves higher and higher graded books must make you inwardly cackle with glee, because you know you can give them what they want. I admit even I look at books differently now, I see a book and say.. I could press that out, I could lessen that indent. It makes me laugh that it is part of my thought process now.. .Then I remember that part of the fun of collecting was finding something that survived all the years unblemished. You happen to have a way to remove that which time has metered out. But to say that pressing has been around forever does not justify continuing to do it. It was a choice you made, plain and simple.

 

To me this lies at ther center of why the press and resub game bothers me so much.. Having you(or others) tell me nothing is wrong with pressing, yet at the same time NOT saying that you(or others) are doing it to the buying public it is maddening, (to me the minority guy anyways) I am being altruistic, you are runnig a business, i get that much.

 

It is obvious all this rubs me the wrong way in that you continue to say what is not important for anyone to be worried about, also happens to be what makes you a boatload of money.( in most cases anyways).

 

 

You feel differently, On that I think we can both agree. I only ask you to stand behind what you are doing,create an atmosphere of understanding, not deception. Set an example for others to follow Matt. I really want to move past the bashing part, and focus on what options exist to help everyone find common ground. Redhooks suggestion is one I endorse. Revise his suggestion, all you want, make it your own. Are you even open to anything other then what you are currently doing?

 

 

Have a great weekend eveyone, I am outta here to go drown my pain, I had a wisdome toothe extracted recently that is now a dry socket. I cannot believe how much of a pain it is, literally

 

 

Ze-

[Foolkiller]

Just to back FFB up:

 

When I last spoke to Emilio (BleekerBob) earlier this year, he had expressed ZERO opinion on pressing and the like and only told me that the concern had to do with his wife being concerned about how much time/attention got spent on comics. His interest was strong -- and even then he was looking at spending on other areas of the hobby. But his sell off (which I'm not even sure is complete) did not have a connection to pressing.

 

Hoo Dee Doo to my understanding simply wanted to get out. His decision to sell came, as FFB said way before pressing became an issue on the boards...

 

I don't know if Sfilosa has gotten out or is just taking a break, but I'm not really sure why he left or if he's really at all out of collecting...

 

When I met Drummy out in San Diego, he seemed more into the fact that he buys and sells books as he tires of them or needs them to raise money for house etc. I think he is far less affected by pressing than others here.

[Foolkiller]

Why do you feel it is ok to NOT tell people openly that you pressed the book they are buying from you? Besides the money part, I really would like to know how you feel withholding information like this is in any way shape, or form...a good thing for the hobby?

 

 

I'll answer this:

 

Is it really a bad thing? Pressing and non disclosure is NOT in and of itself bad. Why, because to my knowledge, nothing negative happens to the book. For pressing to be required to be disclosed indicates that in some way, shape or form, it is a negative? Why? It's not. Nobody forces you to buy a high grade book, and if more are "created" guess what, that lessens the value of high grade in general. Okay, so what? Does that impact the hobby overall? I really don't know, I know it doesn't affect most collectors at all because for the most part Fine Cap 109s etc. aren't being pressed. A "manufactured" product appeals to those who buy high grade for the aesthetic appeal. The scarcity -- well -- guess what, if you buy a book and it's "had work done" like pressing, and you didn't know, the difference is all in your head.

 

Withholding information isn't the key. There's no entitlement to know.

 

People feel like they are being cheated. Like they are not getting what they paid for. The fact is, they are getting exactly what they paid for, the grade is what it is.

[Aman619]

What if pressing was detectable?

 

What if my grandmother had balls?

 

She'd be my grandfather.

 

well, actually, your grandparents would be a happy old gay couple, and you woulndnt exist as you are . Youd look like your REAL parents , one of which was adopted! : )

[FFB]

If you got your head out of your arse long enough, you might just find a few.

 

Whether meant in jest or not, that's a low blow to Scott and I apologize.

 

No hard feelings, George. Despite whatever might be our subtle disagreements on some of these issues, I do respect your views and think that ultimately, your heart is in the right place whether we disagree or not.

 

As for the matter of price drops, you and I could both produce a dozen examples of books that are selling for either more or less then they were in the past, and the other could find a way to rationalize away the data.

 

I still maintain that in any market, price action is a lagging indicator of market health. More pertinent are things like inventory levels and DOM (Days on Market). Right now, inventories are high, not only on dealer and consignment sites, but also on ebay and eBay Stores and most books tend to sit a while.

 

Are they high in comparison to past years? When I was buying silver and bronze age books, I never had a problem finding what I needed. Sometimes the prices were good, sometimes not so good. But the fact of the matter is, most silver age books (Marvels especially) have been plentiful in high grade for some time, and auction houses like Heritage are still selling books like crazy with every auction.

 

Maybe the "other" George (Pantela) could chime in and let us know what his market reports say about the overall health of the market. If supply is truly outstripping demand, then prices in the most recent months should be a pretty good indication of the near-term health of the market. Unless it is your opinion that the crash is happening now as we speak, in which case you'll have to excuse me but I still have a couple thousand books I need to go dump on ebay right now.

 

As for the reasons why the Forumites I mentioned got out of high grade, well, I know from communicating with a couple of them that among their reasons were a certain waning of confidence in the CGC product. When your third party objectivity and ability to spot restoration comes into question, confidence will wane.

 

OK, I'll have to take your word on that. Like I said, I don't know some of those guys, but the ones I do gave different reasons when I spoke to them.

[Aman619]

unless, of course, she had had them removed prior to meeting and marrying your grandfather, sort of like the Church Superman#1, just to wrap it up all nice.....

[Aman619]

I seem to recall noticing that Comiclink had around 15000 to 18000 comics listed at any time a year ago. And its over 20000 now. Anecdotal rather than scientific research, but, there it is.

[kc120us]

You with me on this Brad?

 

Anyone else?

 

I second it !!!

 

Count me in

[jkrk]

I consider myself about as knowledgeable a collector as anyone when it comes to restoration and I would not pay less for a pressed book if it was a book that I otherwise wanted. Given the rising prices on books, I am sure I'm not alone.

 

I consider myself a novice when it comes to restoration. However from a financial viewpoint I would never pay as much for a pressed book assuming there are equivalent copies in the marketplace. My concern doesn't center on what I believe but rather what others believe. Why own a copy with a small(?) /large (?) stigma which might be somewhat less marketable than the equivalent copy? If the pressing was ever displayed on the label the risks multiply. Clearly, a one-of -a-kind issue is a different animal and the pressing will be overlooked.

 

My concern with pressing, As I've said in another post- is that you might buy the highest grade copy of a book )and pay a huge premium for bragging rights. You are continuously speculating that other copies won't move up in rank and possibly surplant your copy as the best? The prices for books are based somewhat on scarcity at a given grade. As books become improved, are our books losing relative value and are really declining in price as more copies are available at higher grades?

[mr_highgrade]

James a/k/a Fantastic_four is still collecting, he just got tired of posting because of the recycled topics on the boards. Plus, he got into some online computer game.

Emilio a/k/a BleeckerBob got the OA fever thanks to KrazyKat. I have some of his books and have been listing most of them on Bidoncomics.com.

[Ze-man]

Why do you feel it is ok to NOT tell people openly that you pressed the book they are buying from you? Besides the money part, I really would like to know how you feel withholding information like this is in any way shape, or form...a good thing for the hobby?

 

 

I'll answer this:

 

Is it really a bad thing? Pressing and non disclosure is NOT in and of itself bad. Why, because to my knowledge, nothing negative happens to the book. For pressing to be required to be disclosed indicates that in some way, shape or form, it is a negative? Why? It's not. Nobody forces you to buy a high grade book, and if more are "created" guess what, that lessens the value of high grade in general. Okay, so what? Does that impact the hobby overall? I really don't know, I know it doesn't affect most collectors at all because for the most part Fine Cap 109s etc. aren't being pressed. A "manufactured" product appeals to those who buy high grade for the aesthetic appeal. The scarcity -- well -- guess what, if you buy a book and it's "had work done" like pressing, and you didn't know, the difference is all in your head.

 

Withholding information isn't the key. There's no entitlement to know.

 

People feel like they are being cheated. Like they are not getting what they paid for. The fact is, they are getting exactly what they paid for, the grade is what it is.

 

Why do you guys keep answering other peoples questions??? oh I forgot, you are all lawyers.

Silly me.

 

As I said in my post, it bothers me more having the people who are making money telling me what is and what isn't important, then if a book is considered restored if it was pressed. It is how I feel, even if I am in the minority.

 

Sure I can become more educated through reading the conversations here in this and other threads. But in the end I will probably still feel basically the same way I did awhile ago regarding how I feel about ndp, as will you.

 

I suppose it is similar to how CGC is not the police I once thought them to be. Matt has the singular chance to lead the way regarding disclosure, in a manner that I personally think would be good for the hobby overall. And he is not.

 

So yes I am bothered. I will get over it like everything else by changing what types, and how I buy comics in the future.

 

 

 

Later.

 

Kenny