Manufactured Gold

[tth2]

let's try to stay away from pejorativeness, please. Matt's going out of his way to be forthright, he should at least be able to expect to be treated civilly

[tth2]

where people dress up speculation as fact and proclaim without any evidence that pressed books would necessarily sell at a discount if pressing were disclosed. There isn't much evidence on the point either way, but what limited evidence that is out there is to the contrary.

I'm actually hoping that affirmative disclosure that a book has NOT been pressed will result in a premium being paid for it.

[FFB]

Overstreet 2005 NM- 9.2 value = $1,000.

 

NETWORK OF DISCLOSURE NOTICE: This book, which was purchased from a Heritage Comics auction, was previously graded by CGC as a 9.0. It is unknown whether the book has been pressed or simply was resubbed by a prior owner for a higher grade.

 

Just an observation:

 

According to you, NOD is about education and disclosure of all known work, and not just about singling out pressing. Yet the NOD disclosure offered with this book indicates something very different. This book was graded as a CGC 9.0 and subsequently as a CGC 9.4. The cause for upgrade is unknown. The upgrade might have been due to one or a combination of several techniques not deemed restoration by CGC. Yet the only possibility the NOD disclaimer allows for as the reason for the unknown upgrade - is that it the book was pressed! Why am I saying it's the only possibility? Because I think it's clear that only an imbecile would believe that simply resubmitting a book like this would or could result in such a drastic upgrade (or is the point of this so-called option to imply that the CGC graders are incompetent?). So, in the absence of any knowledge of what was done to the book, why is NOD singling out pressing if pressing is not the NOD poster child?

 

Why Peter, thank you so much for your productive post!! Wow, you missed so much today. We actually had substantive discussions without much name-calling back and forth, including with three lawyers and a restoration expert, all of whom often have differing opinions. Thank you for restoring our sanity by bringing us back to the level of condescending and cute remarks. Was this more of a shot against me, the NOD or both? I know you have been looking for the opportunities. I hope this was as good for you as it was for me.

 

I wrote that description long before the NOD was created and only later simply added the NETWORK OF DISCLOSURE part. By any chance did you even notice that the OS value was from 2005? Psst, let me tell you a secret, we're in 2006. I never modified it or the text.

 

But for you cutie pie, because you so much want to be right and put me in my place whenever you can, I will gladly modify the language to balance out the possible alternatives that could have resulted in the higher grade. It will now read: "It is unknown what method(s) were applied or utilized to enhance or manipulate the grade". Better? "Manipulate", yes or no? Fair? Inappropriate? Mean?

 

In any event, happy to respond to your constructive criticism. After all, this is all about ethical behavior and doing the right thing. Wouldn't want to be called a hypocrite. Keep on trying. Maybe you will snag me on something significant one of these days. Anything else?

 

Have a great weekend!

 

I didn't see any condescending or cute remarks in Learned_Hand's post. Now, in your reply, on the other hand....

[FFB]

what would you have said in this case differentyly to convet an upgrade of 2 levels?

 

I actually think it was better the first time around.

[tth2]

It was Crazy Eddie. Call him and ask hi... NO WAIT! Post a thread here and demand that he respond and call him all sorts of names until he does!!!!

This was a milk squirter!

[tth2]

You know what Chris STFU

Sorry Brian, but I now have to sue you for plagiarizing about 100 of my previous posts.

[tth2]

which book?

Don't give opportunities to Zaid to self-promote!

[THE_BEYONDER]

Thirsty for more?

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

I seem to recall noticing that Comiclink had around 15000 to 18000 comics listed at any time a year ago. And its over 20000 now. Anecdotal rather than scientific research, but, there it is.

 

Inventory of CGC books in ebay stores has more then doubled in the last 18 months, of course, with the .25 cent listing day last week, the current number is probably skewed.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

And to FFB and Foolkiller, let me repeat, my comment about Forumites leaving the hobby had NOTHING TO DO WITH PRESSING. For the thousandth time, I agree with both of you on PRESSING, It doesn't bother me and wouldn't keep me from buying a book. (Let me qualify that by now adding, "As long as it wasn't taken apart"). I also don't think it bothered the people I mentioned.

 

I simply responded to Matt Nelson, who responded to Brent's comment about the "resub problem".

 

I think the "problem" has been defined before by others. Its not that pressing exists and that people get bumps in grades on a resub.

 

It’s the waning of confidence in the CGC product because of any number of things like:

 

1). The Ewert fiasco and CGC being caught with their pants down.

2). The PCS fiasco, which was made worse by the fact it was (allegedly) available only to select clientele and represented to many, a conflict of interest.

3). The moving target of grading standards and what is and is not restoration.

4). Most importantly, and perhaps hardest to quantify, is the entire culture brought about by this resub game. Collectors now have to scroll through archives of pictures to feel safe that their new purchase wasn't a grade or two lower in a previous incarnation. I almost feel like I have to do more work purchasing a slabbed book then I do a raw one. Hey, I thought that's why I was paying a premium for a CGC book....apparently not.

 

Let me put it another way: In the normal course of a company's life-cycle, doesn't the technological and procedural advances it makes normally heighten the confidence of the consumer in the product?

 

Besides the fact that CGC finally redesigned the inner well after much grumbling about SCS, do you honestly feel safer buying a CGC book graded now then you did five years ago? I know I don't. I feel like I have to display more caution and exercise more due diligence then ever. (Perhaps my Faith in them was both Blind and Naive....I'll grant you that.)

 

But after seven years, the collecting community should feel more secure then ever in the CGC product. They've had seven years to refine, tweak, and improve. Have they?

 

From this lowly collectors point of view, they have not. Instead of improving their standards, they appear to have consciously chosen to allow an erosion of them, so that people keep playing the game, and the resub income keeps streaming in.

 

And that's the "resub problem".

[Zonker]

people keep playing the game, and the resub income keeps streaming in.

 

And that's the "resub problem".

 

My analysis is it's not primarily the resub income that motivates CGC. Instead, it is the tremendous arbitrage opportunity that the resub game offers partial-parent Heritage and others. Resubs fuel the repeated trips of the same book through the Heritage mill. Ka-ching, Ka-ching.

 

"Follow the REAL money..."

[Foolkiller]

And to FFB and Foolkiller, let me repeat, my comment about Forumites leaving the hobby had NOTHING TO DO WITH PRESSING. For the thousandth time, I agree with both of you on PRESSING, It doesn't bother me and wouldn't keep me from buying a book. (Let me qualify that by now adding, "As long as it wasn't taken apart"). I also don't think it bothered the people I mentioned.

 

I simply responded to Matt Nelson, who responded to Brent's comment about the "resub problem".

 

I think the "problem" has been defined before by others. Its not that pressing exists and that people get bumps in grades on a resub.

 

It’s the waning of confidence in the CGC product because of any number of things like:

 

1). The Ewert fiasco and CGC being caught with their pants down.

2). The PCS fiasco, which was made worse by the fact it was (allegedly) available only to select clientele and represented to many, a conflict of interest.

3). The moving target of grading standards and what is and is not restoration.

4). Most importantly, and perhaps hardest to quantify, is the entire culture brought about by this resub game. Collectors now have to scroll through archives of pictures to feel safe that their new purchase wasn't a grade or two lower in a previous incarnation. I almost feel like I have to do more work purchasing a slabbed book then I do a raw one. Hey, I thought that's why I was paying a premium for a CGC book....apparently not.

 

Let me put it another way: In the normal course of a company's life-cycle, doesn't the technological and procedural advances it makes normally heighten the confidence of the consumer in the product?

 

Besides the fact that CGC finally redesigned the inner well after much grumbling about SCS, do you honestly feel safer buying a CGC book graded now then you did five years ago? I know I don't. I feel like I have to display more caution and exercise more due diligence then ever. (Perhaps my Faith in them was both Blind and Naive....I'll grant you that.)

 

But after seven years, the collecting community should feel more secure then ever in the CGC product. They've had seven years to refine, tweak, and improve. Have they?

 

From this lowly collectors point of view, they have not. Instead of improving their standards, they appear to have consciously chosen to allow an erosion of them, so that people keep playing the game, and the resub income keeps streaming in.

 

And that's the "resub problem".

 

I'm still not sure any of those things you cited were a problem for Bleekerbob -- we never really discussed any of those issues. I really think there were other pressures that were on him that overrode those concerns. Not sure about hoo dee doo... but I never saw him post all that much on these subjects, but it's been a long time since he posted so... I can't really say.

 

On the other hand, your underlying point is a good one.

[Flaming_Telepath]

Not that the name would mean anything to most of you, but a good friend of mine had one of the best high-grade '60 to '66 Marvel collections around, mostly slabbed and mostly 9.2 and better.

 

He's sold them all bar four books. He did so because he knew precisely what was going on in the hobby and didn't want to be left holding if the whole pack of cards collapsed.

 

Not sufficient to show a trend, I know, but certainly a case in point.

[Red Hook]

 

And here again, is a chance to think outside the box. I think the following is a credible scenario....

 

1. Matt Nelson (as an example only) presses a book and offers it for sale.

2. In his auction, he discloses the fact that he himself did the work and he offers a 100% lifetime

guarantee on his work. He also carefully explains that the book was originally a toughly graded

9.4 and he applied some gentle localized pressing to help it reach it's current 9.6 grade.

3. The buyers looking at his auction receive all the available info on the book, are comfortable

bidding on the book, are assured that the work was done by a leading expert....and the book

returns a comfortable profit to Matt.

 

Result? Matt's happy. The buyer is happy. The "vast minority" who wish not to add pressed books to their collections can safely pass the auction by. The hobby is a better place for a more open transaction. And the blocks have been knocked out from under any conspiracy theories.

 

Unless there is an attempt at a real solution, I don't think this controversy is going away soon.

 

 

 

I still want to hear why this solution wouldn't work, or at least be the best one offered. Actually, it's the only solution I've heard other than "stop collecting".

 

Matt.....what about this wouldn't work for you? You'd have a distinct leg up on other sellers because as a recognized restoration expert, you're work would be an assurance to most potential buyers and not a concern.

 

What concerns me is the work of the backroom pressers, the dealers who do it at home and are far from knowledgeable about the longterm affects of their work.

[kc120us]

What concerns me is the work of the backroom pressers, the dealers who do it at home and are far from knowledgeable about the longterm affects of their work.

 

Exactly.

[Bronty]

Not that the name would mean anything to most of you, but a good friend of mine had one of the best high-grade '60 to '66 Marvel collections around, mostly slabbed and mostly 9.2 and better.

 

He's sold them all bar four books. He did so because he knew precisely what was going on in the hobby and didn't want to be left holding if the whole pack of cards collapsed.

 

Not sufficient to show a trend, I know, but certainly a case in point.

 

Here's another case in point. I've taken a break from comics for a couple years. When I eventually come back (I always do) I won't be touching high grade slabs with a ten foot pole.

[comicdonna]

Not that the name would mean anything to most of you, but a good friend of mine had one of the best high-grade '60 to '66 Marvel collections around, mostly slabbed and mostly 9.2 and better.

 

He's sold them all bar four books. He did so because he knew precisely what was going on in the hobby and didn't want to be left holding if the whole pack of cards collapsed.

 

Not sufficient to show a trend, I know, but certainly a case in point.

 

Here's another case in point. I've taken a break from comics for a couple years. When I eventually come back (I always do) I won't be touching high grade slabs with a ten foot pole.

I'm happy with a 4.0 - 7.0

[Drummy]

Finally caught up with this thread, which makes good reading. Thanks to Matt Nelson and many others for their views. Saw my name had come up regarding why I left HG collecting, so here's my take:

 

I got out of HG collecting for many reasons, but the primary one was financial. I decided to focus on key books in about Fine condition (also expensive) and couldn't sustain full runs in 9.2/9.4 as well. Not to mention that we moved back to Boston and bought our first house, further cramping our cash flow. Not to mention my love for original art, which further erodes my collecting budget.

 

That said, other factors influenced me as well:

 

1. CGC's grading is not particularly consistent, and slab damage is a major pain for HG books. Twice I spent big bucks only to be disappointed with corner bends, etc. Yuck.

 

2. The "it's only restored if it's practical to spot" argument with regard to manipulation/restoration drives me nuts. Neither CGC's policies nor their restoration experts seem able to communicate a clear standard for the comic community. 'To me, this is untenable. So is buying any key unslabbed book raw (98+% likely to be restored or overgraded), so unfortunately I still prefer buying CGC books even if I won't submit books to them anymore.

 

I might buy a pressed book, but I absolutely want to know if pressing has been performed. I don't buy from Matt or others who are known to press but who don't disclose (just FYI, Matt, since you believe that the majority of collectors don't care.)

 

3. I don't trust HG dealers, so it's hard to buy from them or build a relationship with them. Bob Storms and Ted Van Liew (although not really HG) are my notable exceptions, and Metro is getting much better. Otherwise, I find most dealers insidious.

 

Final word -- I am a proponent of honesty and disclosure, regardless of CGC's limitations or ignorance with regard to detecting resto, etc. If you press books, disclose. If I believe you manipulate books and don't disclose, I won't buy. Honesty trumps pragmatism (i.e., if CGC can't detect it, it's not restoration) in my book.

 

Thanks,

 

Dan

[Red Hook]

Thanks. Nice post.

[Davenport]

 

Here's another case in point. I've taken a break from comics for a couple years. When I eventually come back (I always do) I won't be touching high grade slabs with a ten foot pole.

I'm happy with a 4.0 - 7.0

It's not just HG being juiced.

 

Fantastic Four #12 CGC 5.0

 

Fantastic Four #12 CGC 6.0