Manufactured Gold

[batman_fan]

Finally caught up with this thread, which makes good reading. Thanks to Matt Nelson and many others for their views. Saw my name had come up regarding why I left HG collecting, so here's my take:

 

I got out of HG collecting for many reasons, but the primary one was financial. I decided to focus on key books in about Fine condition (also expensive) and couldn't sustain full runs in 9.2/9.4 as well. Not to mention that we moved back to Boston and bought our first house, further cramping our cash flow. Not to mention my love for original art, which further erodes my collecting budget.

 

That said, other factors influenced me as well:

 

1. CGC's grading is not particularly consistent, and slab damage is a major pain for HG books. Twice I spent big bucks only to be disappointed with corner bends, etc. Yuck.

 

2. The "it's only restored if it's practical to spot" argument with regard to manipulation/restoration drives me nuts. Neither CGC's policies nor their restoration experts seem able to communicate a clear standard for the comic community. 'To me, this is untenable. So is buying any key unslabbed book raw (98+% likely to be restored or overgraded), so unfortunately I still prefer buying CGC books even if I won't submit books to them anymore.

 

I might buy a pressed book, but I absolutely want to know if pressing has been performed. I don't buy from Matt or others who are known to press but who don't disclose (just FYI, Matt, since you believe that the majority of collectors don't care.)

 

3. I don't trust HG dealers, so it's hard to buy from them or build a relationship with them. Bob Storms and Ted Van Liew (although not really HG) are my notable exceptions, and Metro is getting much better. Otherwise, I find most dealers insidious.

 

Final word -- I am a proponent of honesty and disclosure, regardless of CGC's limitations or ignorance with regard to detecting resto, etc. If you press books, disclose. If I believe you manipulate books and don't disclose, I won't buy. Honesty trumps pragmatism (i.e., if CGC can't detect it, it's not restoration) in my book.

 

Thanks,

 

Dan

 

Hey Drummy, My current situation and experiences mirror yours quite well. Thanks for articulating so well.

[batman_fan]

 

Here's another case in point. I've taken a break from comics for a couple years. When I eventually come back (I always do) I won't be touching high grade slabs with a ten foot pole.

I'm happy with a 4.0 - 7.0

It's not just HG being juiced.

 

Fantastic Four #12 CGC 5.0

 

Fantastic Four #12 CGC 6.0

 

 

You beat me to it, 4.0 to 7.0 are still a sweet place to "optimize" a book. The case you showed represents a reasonable increase in money with the grading bump.

[batman_fan]

Who do you think will win this book off Heritage? Do you think we will see it again in 3 months in a blue holder 8.5? Wonder if a 8.5 blue would be worth more than a 7.5 green and we now know it isn't restoration.

 

Adventure 42

[Foolkiller]

Finally caught up with this thread, which makes good reading. Thanks to Matt Nelson and many others for their views. Saw my name had come up regarding why I left HG collecting, so here's my take:

 

I got out of HG collecting for many reasons, but the primary one was financial. I decided to focus on key books in about Fine condition (also expensive) and couldn't sustain full runs in 9.2/9.4 as well. Not to mention that we moved back to Boston and bought our first house, further cramping our cash flow. Not to mention my love for original art, which further erodes my collecting budget.

 

That said, other factors influenced me as well:

 

1. CGC's grading is not particularly consistent, and slab damage is a major pain for HG books. Twice I spent big bucks only to be disappointed with corner bends, etc. Yuck.

 

2. The "it's only restored if it's practical to spot" argument with regard to manipulation/restoration drives me nuts. Neither CGC's policies nor their restoration experts seem able to communicate a clear standard for the comic community. 'To me, this is untenable. So is buying any key unslabbed book raw (98+% likely to be restored or overgraded), so unfortunately I still prefer buying CGC books even if I won't submit books to them anymore.

 

I might buy a pressed book, but I absolutely want to know if pressing has been performed. I don't buy from Matt or others who are known to press but who don't disclose (just FYI, Matt, since you believe that the majority of collectors don't care.)

 

3. I don't trust HG dealers, so it's hard to buy from them or build a relationship with them. Bob Storms and Ted Van Liew (although not really HG) are my notable exceptions, and Metro is getting much better. Otherwise, I find most dealers insidious.

 

Final word -- I am a proponent of honesty and disclosure, regardless of CGC's limitations or ignorance with regard to detecting resto, etc. If you press books, disclose. If I believe you manipulate books and don't disclose, I won't buy. Honesty trumps pragmatism (i.e., if CGC can't detect it, it's not restoration) in my book.

 

Thanks,

 

Dan

 

Dan,

 

Great post. Wish there was something for me to disagree with what you are saying, but there is not. Even though I champion the pragmatic approach, I constantly return to the fact that at my core, this always bothers me -- but it is a reality I accept in today's landscape of high grade... but day by day, I start to understand and appreciate the other side's position.

[Flaming_Telepath]

Moral? If you don't like buying high grade books that may have been pressed, then do not do business with Comiclink, Matt Nelson, Lauterbach, Pedigree and the other dealers and auctioneers that refuse of their own volition to disclose non-disassembly cleaning and/or pressing.

Bob, you know I respect the hell out of you, but I have to say that as I read through your discoveries, what struck me as the moral of the story is that even if you sell through a "good" dealer like Bob Storms, you have no control over where the books will end up. Unless the "good" dealers will sign up to your code of ethics and refuse to show the books to or sell to any person who you deem to be part of the Axis of Evil.

 

Tim, you know that's unworkable. We also know that not buying from Heritage or Matt Nelson or whoever does not guarantee against you ending up with a Heritage book in your collection via a third party.

 

However, what it does do is two very important things...

 

One, it cuts down, but does not cancel, the risk. Deal with the 'good dealers'. Buy and sell through the 'good dealers'. It's an exercise in minimizing.

 

Two, to buy or sell directly through the Axis Of Evil is to encourage them and directly lines their pockets. If enough buyers refuse to buy from these people, there's less activity on their sites and their auctions and, perhaps, the prices realised start to drop. And then maybe the penny drops and they look at their 'business model'.

 

Or maybe they don't.

 

But they certainly won't if we all continue to directly give them our patronage.

[MasterChief]

That’s twice now that you’ve beat me to a post I was currently working on.

 

Either I need to burn the midnight oil or have the wife get a second job to stay ahead of you!

[shadroch]

FFB and another poster mention that they had books that were bought at near record levels by dealers,dispite being sold as pressed.

Thats interesting but what would be more meaningful is what prices those dealers got for the same book,and did they disclose that the books were pressed?

[Davenport]

That’s twice now that you’ve beat me to a post I was currently working on.

 

Either I need to burn the midnight oil or have the wife get a second job to stay ahead of you!

Whoops.

 

Your format is mucho grande, highly detailed, and very educational. Keep 'em coming MC!

[tth2]

Moral? If you don't like buying high grade books that may have been pressed, then do not do business with Comiclink, Matt Nelson, Lauterbach, Pedigree and the other dealers and auctioneers that refuse of their own volition to disclose non-disassembly cleaning and/or pressing.

Bob, you know I respect the hell out of you, but I have to say that as I read through your discoveries, what struck me as the moral of the story is that even if you sell through a "good" dealer like Bob Storms, you have no control over where the books will end up. Unless the "good" dealers will sign up to your code of ethics and refuse to show the books to or sell to any person who you deem to be part of the Axis of Evil.

 

Tim, you know that's unworkable. We also know that not buying from Heritage or Matt Nelson or whoever does not guarantee against you ending up with a Heritage book in your collection via a third party.

Why not? Brad felt entitled to tell me not to sell through Heritage. Why wouldn`t he and others also feel entitled to tell people to restrict who they allow to buy their books? It`s not perfect, but wouldn`t not buying from AND not selling to the Axis of Evil create a better quarantine around the Axis of Evil?

 

However, what it does do is two very important things...

 

One, it cuts down, but does not cancel, the risk. Deal with the 'good dealers'. Buy and sell through the 'good dealers'. It's an exercise in minimizing.

 

Two, to buy or sell directly through the Axis Of Evil is to encourage them and directly lines their pockets. If enough buyers refuse to buy from these people, there's less activity on their sites and their auctions and, perhaps, the prices realised start to drop. And then maybe the penny drops and they look at their 'business model'.

 

Or maybe they don't.

 

But they certainly won't if we all continue to directly give them our patronage.

I know. I fully understand the point you`re making, and it`s a valid one. I just thought that Bob`s experience was a good reminder that selling through a "good" dealer, with no further restrictions, is no guarantee that the books won`t end up in bad hands and perversely, not manipulating the book yourself creates a profit opportunity for them. (please, no one twist this last sentence into saying that I`m advocating maximizing books` potential) There`s a bit of an illusory "feel good about yourself" factor about selling through a good dealer, just like people convincing themselves that by driving a hybrid car, they`re helping the environment.

[batman_fan]

Moral? If you don't like buying high grade books that may have been pressed, then do not do business with Comiclink, Matt Nelson, Lauterbach, Pedigree and the other dealers and auctioneers that refuse of their own volition to disclose non-disassembly cleaning and/or pressing.

Bob, you know I respect the hell out of you, but I have to say that as I read through your discoveries, what struck me as the moral of the story is that even if you sell through a "good" dealer like Bob Storms, you have no control over where the books will end up. Unless the "good" dealers will sign up to your code of ethics and refuse to show the books to or sell to any person who you deem to be part of the Axis of Evil.

 

Tim, you know that's unworkable. We also know that not buying from Heritage or Matt Nelson or whoever does not guarantee against you ending up with a Heritage book in your collection via a third party.

Why not? Brad felt entitled to tell me not to sell through Heritage. Why wouldn`t he and others also feel entitled to tell people to restrict who they allow to buy their books? It`s not perfect, but wouldn`t not buying from AND not selling to the Axis of Evil create a better quarantine around the Axis of Evil?

 

However, what it does do is two very important things...

 

One, it cuts down, but does not cancel, the risk. Deal with the 'good dealers'. Buy and sell through the 'good dealers'. It's an exercise in minimizing.

 

Two, to buy or sell directly through the Axis Of Evil is to encourage them and directly lines their pockets. If enough buyers refuse to buy from these people, there's less activity on their sites and their auctions and, perhaps, the prices realised start to drop. And then maybe the penny drops and they look at their 'business model'.

 

Or maybe they don't.

 

But they certainly won't if we all continue to directly give them our patronage.

I know. I fully understand the point you`re making, and it`s a valid one. I just thought that Bob`s experience was a good reminder that selling through a "good" dealer, with no further restrictions, is no guarantee that the books won`t end up in bad hands and perversely, not manipulating the book yourself creates a profit opportunity for them. (please, no one twist this last sentence into saying that I`m advocating maximizing books` potential) There`s a bit of an illusory "feel good about yourself" factor about selling through a good dealer, just like people convincing themselves that by driving a hybrid car, they`re helping the environment.

 

I know you are not advocating people helping their book reach there maximum potential, but it does bring up a very good point. If you don't there is a very good chance someone else will, unless somehow they end up in a collectors hand that never sells them which may not be too likely with how often collector seem to flip books to fund other purchases, so what do you do, take the path that agrees with your opinion on the upgrade issue, or do you say screw it and have your books pressed, cleaned, etc before selling. It is a hard decision ... I don't know how I would feel seeing a 9.2 I sold for $150 sell on clink for $500 as a 9.6 ...

[Aman619]

or work to stop the backdoor manipulation.

[namisgr]

or work to stop the backdoor manipulation.

 

It can't be stopped. It can, however, be discouraged in two ways.

 

In the first, some deep-pocketed buyers refuse to buy books from known manipulators, and in so doing make it economically disadvantageous in the short-term for books to be manipulated.

 

In the second, buyers new and old alike are discouraged out of the hobby entirely by the practice of comic manipulation. This will make it disadvantageous in the long-term for books to be manipulated.

 

Don't believe the latter scenario is possible? Check out the forty year history of the coin collecting marketplace. I believe the manipulators are being dollar-wise but hundred-dollar foolish by their scorched earth practices.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

2. The "it's only restored if it's practical to spot" argument with regard to manipulation/restoration drives me nuts. Neither CGC's policies nor their restoration experts seem able to communicate a clear standard for the comic community. 'To me, this is untenable. So is buying any key unslabbed book raw (98+% likely to be restored or overgraded), so unfortunately I still prefer buying CGC books even if I won't submit books to them anymore.

 

I apologize if I used your name out of turn Dan. I know your primary motivations were fiancial, but I also know from your posts and PMs we shared, that you displayed a serious concern for the integrity of the CGC product before you started selling off en masse. For the purposes of my post, I didn't distinguish between CGC's perceived integrity in the marketplace and your personal financial motivations. Afterall, if you feel the books you paid good money for will not find a buyer at a comparable price because of marketplace perception, then the two motivations become intertwined, no?

 

As for HooDeeDoo, I think his inclusion was probably in error. Mark timed the peak really well and sold off to maximize his investment. And good for him.

 

And BleekerBob, well, I'm pretty sure I remember at least one post/PM where he seemed pretty ticked at some of the revelations on this Board. This was just after he dropped a ton of money over a couple of months span on HG. But yes, I also remember he had a bit of a girlfriend/fiancee problem.

[Red Hook]

Why not? Brad felt entitled to tell me not to sell through Heritage. Why wouldn`t he and others also feel entitled to tell people to restrict who they allow to buy their books? It`s not perfect, but wouldn`t not buying from AND not selling to the Axis of Evil create a better quarantine around the Axis of Evil?

 

I never told you to do anything. But keep spreading the baloney. You're a natural.

 

 

PS. You're still a tool. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. And you are definitely part of the problem.

[jkrk]

Finally caught up with this thread, which makes good reading. Thanks to Matt Nelson and many others for their views. Saw my name had come up regarding why I left HG collecting, so here's my take:

 

I got out of HG collecting for many reasons, but the primary one was financial. I decided to focus on key books in about Fine condition (also expensive) and couldn't sustain full runs in 9.2/9.4 as well. Not to mention that we moved back to Boston and bought our first house, further cramping our cash flow. Not to mention my love for original art, which further erodes my collecting budget.

 

That said, other factors influenced me as well:

 

1. CGC's grading is not particularly consistent, and slab damage is a major pain for HG books. Twice I spent big bucks only to be disappointed with corner bends, etc. Yuck.

 

2. The "it's only restored if it's practical to spot" argument with regard to manipulation/restoration drives me nuts. Neither CGC's policies nor their restoration experts seem able to communicate a clear standard for the comic community. 'To me, this is untenable. So is buying any key unslabbed book raw (98+% likely to be restored or overgraded), so unfortunately I still prefer buying CGC books even if I won't submit books to them anymore.

 

I might buy a pressed book, but I absolutely want to know if pressing has been performed. I don't buy from Matt or others who are known to press but who don't disclose (just FYI, Matt, since you believe that the majority of collectors don't care.)

 

3. I don't trust HG dealers, so it's hard to buy from them or build a relationship with them. Bob Storms and Ted Van Liew (although not really HG) are my notable exceptions, and Metro is getting much better. Otherwise, I find most dealers insidious.

 

Final word -- I am a proponent of honesty and disclosure, regardless of CGC's limitations or ignorance with regard to detecting resto, etc. If you press books, disclose. If I believe you manipulate books and don't disclose, I won't buy. Honesty trumps pragmatism (i.e., if CGC can't detect it, it's not restoration) in my book.

 

Thanks,

 

 

My take is as follows. Without going into details my current financial situation has never been better. The cost of raising my daughter is behind us. We are debt free and my business is going well. I am in a very liquid position. from a financial point of view I am probably an ideal candidate for sellers.

 

A few years ago I was thinking about committing substantial dollars to the hobby. I was toying with the idea of buying mega keys. AS I've said before, reading this board and examining some of the "issues" brought up by the posters might cause some to reconsider. It cured me. I decided that I would continue to buy mid grade GA books I like (perhaps a few were pressed. perhaps some resubbed) but American Eagles/Panda/rands will satisfy my major committment towards Gold (alternative investments).

They aren't nearly as exciting to look at but I worry less about themes brought out on this board.

 

With each new revalation I continue to read that many are "shocked, shocked to find out gambling is going on here". Sellers will always look for ways to pass off their wares as somewhat better than they are. My view is that Disclosure will not succeed unless it can be detected by cgc. How many will buy a pressed book (especially at a discount), crack the book out of the holder, send the book to CGC

so the identifying number has changed? Money will motivate the sellers to play the game and the police will always remain steps behind.

 

My point is that I have come to terms with the hobby and I am no longer upset with each new discovery. I wish for everyone to have as much info as they can get before they buy books. Alas. my view is that sellers will reveal as little info as they can to make the sale. The "I didn't know" defense or the "You didn't ask" defense will come to play. To summarize, here is how I view the hobby:

 

What you see is what you get. Nothing will change except the sellers will find the nexr creative outlet. Drummy has come around. Will the trend continue as others see the light?

[Drummy]

George --

 

You and others did not use my name out of turn. To say the least, I'm disenchanted with both CGC's trustworthiness and their integrity. I see too many examples of suspicious upgrades, preferential treatment, slab damage, and "moving target" restoration policies for me to be comfortable with them. So yes, I was not interested in having a huge number of slabbed books from a company I can only respect about half the time.

 

Thankfully, my house projects will be under control by the end of 2006. My dad, whose slowly failing health also keeps me financially cautious, is doing OK. I'm now looking forward to bringing some money to NYC in February. Maybe buy a key book, or maybe some original art if I can afford it. I'm back to enjoying my hobby (If not THE hobby), taking a pound of salt with every potential purchase. And I'm asking more questions.

 

To augment my original post: I also forgot to mention I won't buy from Heritage anymore. Too much crapioca associated with that outfit. I might buy from Comiclink but the book would have to be on the "low" price scale.

 

Looking forward to talking with y'all in the near future,

 

Dan

[jkrk]

My analysis is it's not primarily the resub income that motivates CGC. Instead, it is the tremendous arbitrage opportunity that the resub game offers partial-parent Heritage and others. Resubs fuel the repeated trips of the same book through the Heritage mill. Ka-ching, Ka-ching

 

I suspect the resub game is being played by most dealers. If you are truly concerned about it then I suugest you should only buy original owner books (as soon as they are graded). You are seeing pedigree books that have been in the marketplace for awhile are part of the game.

 

With the publicity floating around about collectors frustration of buying upgraded books, my intuition tells me that Heritage is now the safest source to buy from. If they are very much involved in the "crack out game" then it probably is in their interest to lay off the upgraded books to other sites (including E-Bay under another sellers name). This will give them a cleaner image and also help to create disatisfaction with their competition. Heritage can accomplish this task and their cost will only be a few percentage points. I will be looking closely at Heritage's future auctions and compare books against their archives to see if my assumption is correct.

[Red Hook]

The Reaper Strikes Again.

[chromium]

The Reaper Strikes Again.

 

[jkrk]

"This highway leads to the shadowy tip of reality:your're on a through route to the land of the different, the bizarre, the unexpalinable. Go far as you like on this raod.

It's limits are only those of the mind itself. Ladies and gentlemen, you're entering

the wonderous dimension of imagination". Next stop the CGC message board.