Sale of the Year - New Mutants #98 CGC 9.9 for $12,250 5 5

[VintageComics]

Bottom line is that I agree with your fundamental thesis -- which is that 9.8/9.9/10 is extremely arbitrary. There's no way they can be graded by anyone on the planet with consistency.

 

I agree that there is a degree of inconsistency since they are human but what that percentage is, is where we disagree.

 

I believe that they are more accurate.

You believe that they are less accurate.

 

I actually believe that they are more accurate as the grade increases as there are less variables.

 

I'd say that they are more careful to give a 9.9 label than they are a 4.0, 8.0 or a 9.0...meaning not that they proactively "protect" that 9.9 grade but they want to make sure the book deserves the grade.

 

 

[Foolkiller]

Bottom line is that I agree with your fundamental thesis -- which is that 9.8/9.9/10 is extremely arbitrary. There's no way they can be graded by anyone on the planet with consistency.

 

I agree that there is a degree of inconsistency since they are human but what that percentage is, is where we disagree.

 

I believe that they are more accurate.

You believe that they are less accurate.

 

I actually believe that they are more accurate as the grade increases as there are less variables.

 

I'd say that they are more careful to give a 9.9 label than they are a 4.0, 8.0 or a 9.0...meaning not that they proactively "protect" that 9.9 grade but they want to make sure the book deserves the grade.

 

 

Can you really tell me that you see differences in 9.9s and 9.8s that you see? I don't. And it's not because I don't know what to look for -- it's because to me, they are essentially arbitrary. Technically the answer is that a 9.9 is to have fewer defects (or one less) defect. Yet there are 9.9s with hairline stresses not present on 9.8s I've seen. There are 10s that have visible defects in the slab. Sorry, I don't see consistency or even accuracy. And I don't fault them other than factoring it in -- it just isn't feasible to put faith in these grades.

 

I'm sure they are careful to give 9.9s and 10s -- it doesn't mean they can do it consistently or accurately. And there's plenty of slabs out there that bear it out.

Edited November 26, 2009 by Foolkiller

[VintageComics]

BK, I can only go by my limited experiences.

 

I have received a few 9.9 books from my submissions over the years.

 

The first ones where before I even realized what a 9.9 was. I subbed a stack of books and received two 9.9 grades from CGC about 5 1/2 years ago.

 

Since then I have looked proactively and have had only two books that I thought were possible or more likely, strong 9.9 candidates.

 

The first book that I thought was a solid 9.9 was subbed about 4 years ago. Well it was structurally perfect until it got damaged. It was perfect in every way (except for a teeny tiny miswrap) until someone dropped it and put a tiny scrape on one corner. I then personally regraded it a raw 9.8 and it got a CGC 9.8. I am convinced it would have graded a 9.9 had it not been dropped.

 

The second book was more recent. I basically subbed a stack from a warehouse find. I had one book personally graded at 9.9, the rest at 9.8...but I subbed them all to see if I could "squeak" a 9.9 by. The one book that I thought had the strongest shot got the 9.9. The rest got 9.8's. That can't be a coincidence.

 

I have also owned a few 9.9 books, like the Wolverine Mini #1 CGC 9.9. There was not a flaw on the book that I could find except for the slightest miswrap...tiny.

 

So although I'm not a pro I've seen a few 9.9 books.

 

Based on my somewhat limited experience, I can say yes there is some consistency to the 9.9 grade. Maybe someone with more experience can offer more than I can.

[short_box-migration]

There are WEAK 9.8s. 9.70?

 

There are AVERAGE 9.8s.

 

There are STRONG 9.8s. 9.85?

 

 

 

 

Smarty pants.

 

But yes, you could call weak 9.8s "9.7"

 

And eventually....they will.

 

 

Not weak books just weak GRADERS.

 

Once again you will never see 9.7 or 9.5, unless your that stupid company called Wizard.

 

 

When the 9.7s and 9.5s come out...ignore Wiztard, that has nothing to do with this....will you come back and say "ok, RMA was right"....?

 

 

(And whether it's a weak book, or weak graders, the end result is still the same.)

 

It doesn;t make sense to break down the grading scale anymore.

 

It's not going to happen.

 

The book is the same the end result is determined by the grader.

 

Sure, it doesn't make sense to you. It doesn't make sense to a lot of people.

 

But that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to the market...especially with the vast differences paid between the uber grades.

 

MS61, MS62, MS64...those grades didn't make sense to a lot of people, either.

 

Look, CGC didn't really HAVE to have a 9.9, did they? I mean, 9.8 and 10 would have worked fine, right....?

 

So why do they have a 9.9?

 

And wouldn't a 9.7 alleviate some of the problems with cracking and resubbing, hoping for 9.8s?

 

The one difference is that 9.8 and below did correlate to the traditional OS grading designations. 9.9 is the only creation off the grading scale.

 

 

Did Overstreet use both Split Grades and the +/- Grades before CGC showed up? (Haven't bought one in a long time).

[kc120us]

This is a very sad thread. When you boil down all the "discussion", it really is just about pizzing on someone else's cheerios. Very sad, indeed. So, he paid a lot of money for the book. Is he using your money? No. So, who the cares? Boston Corbett I hope you enjoy the book because in the end that is all that matters.

 

 

BS on both of you.

 

This discussion is not only important, it's VITAL to the health of the industry...ESPECIALLY the graded comics part of the industry....for years to come.

 

You can beyotch and moan all you want about "pizzing on someone's cherrios", but as been said before....and you apparently can't understand this...this is but ONE EXAMPLE of a much LARGER, and far more important discussion.

 

Great for Boston Corbett. He saw something he wanted, and paid what it took to get it. If he's happy, that's....as you said...all that matters as it regards THIS transaction.

 

But that's not the point. Never has been the point. Never will be the point.

 

 

Oh please. This sale will have very very little effect on the hobby. All it represents is an anomaly nothing more.

 

Have you bothered to read anything that anyone has written?

 

Or are you doing the typical CGC board knee-jerk reaction to a light skimming and what you thought somebody said...?

 

This sale is not the issue.

 

This sale, in and of itself, is not that important.

 

Maybe if you read what people write, you wouldn't end up repeating back at them what they already said.

 

An uncharacteristic spike in price. It will not cause an inappropriate rise in the price of the other NM #98's. The book, if up for sale again any time soon, would most likely plummet in price unless of course there are a few other collectors who treasure it as much as BC did. If you look at GPA, you'll see there are sales that are anomalies and sales that follow the natural market. And your opinion that there is no difference between a 9.8, 9.9 and 10 is irrelevant to the subset of collectors that pursue such books. They believe in CGC's opinion not your's. And, to them, that is all that matters.

 

Wow. It's like reading what I already wrote....mainly because I did.

 

And, as I said before, their pursuit of such books will have very little effect on the books you or I collect.

 

You such think about changing your name from Rock My Amadeus to Rock My Drama Queen, it is more fitting.

 

 

Yes, that's it....instead of having a reasonable discussion, just sit back and insult people you don't agree with, in an attempt to silence them. That's just disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

And the word you were looking for was "should" not "such", Einstein.

 

My points remain, and they are valid. Sorry kids.

 

Rock, this thread is about the Sale and your discussion about the arbitrary nature of 9.8-9.9 grades (which I don't disagree with) is not the point of this thread. If the book had sold for $200, no one would be discussing it but it didn't. So the sale is the issue of this thread. I agree that the purchase price was not a wise decision in terms of resale/investment but this sale is not about wise decisions it is about the addicitive nature of comic collecting and the illogical decisions comic collectors make in their pursuit of these comics. And as long as the buyer is using disposable income to purchase it I don't see the harm and that is my point.

 

You must have really thin skin to take a harmless bit of sarcasm from me as a huge insult. If i had such thin skin, then I would be really offended by your attack on my opinion and your slight on my grammatical mistake. But I really don't care.

 

Now going back to your point. While there is an arbitrary nature to the 9.9-10 grade, how many 9.9's and 10's are ever regraded? Aside from the books where slab damage has occured, how many people really resubmit a book that has attained that lofty grade status? Does anybody really receive a 9.9 and think that they can do better? While the possiblity is probably not zero, I would say it is very low. About the book in question, do you think anybody would be foolish enough to have it regraded? I don't think so. It may get reholdered but, assuming it is not damaged during it's life, it will never be regraded. So as long as it remains in the slab, it will always be a 9.9.

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2009 by kc120us

[kc120us]

RMA. Dude, state what your point is clearly and succinctly.

 

Use once sentence and state it, cause honestly I don't even fully understand it...and I've been in this thread from the first page.

 

Oh please.

 

I've already said it, over and over again, but I'll say it yet again:

 

Grading is subjective when you're dealing with half and quarter grades.

 

What could be a 9.8 on one day could easily be 9.9 on another day, and vice versa.

 

What could be a 9.6 on one day could easily be a 9.4 on another day, and vice versa.

 

Conclusion: paying huge premiums for a difference in label designation, when the difference in actual quality is negligible, and in some cases, non-existent, is not wise.

 

So long as the buyer knows this and accepts this, more power to them..but if they're being told "oh, yeah, there's totally a difference between a 9.8 and a 9.9...see, the label says so right here!", then we have a problem.

 

If you are speaking of the 9.8-9.9-10 differential, then I would agree. I do think the difference between 9.4-9.6-9.8 is slightly more noticeable.

[FatComicMafia]

Dear Brian, AKA "Boston Corbett". I just posted my, "9.9 Great Hinckley Fire sale" in the for sale section, in a salute to you.

 

all my items are being offered for under $500, since you seem to have compassion for the citizens of Kenya, can you find it in your heart to buy at least one of my copper 9.9's ?

 

Thanks,

FCM

 

 

[bostoncorbett]

This thread is REALLY going to get interesting when I put myself on YouTube, cracking the case as I eat chocolate fondu and guzzle Blue Ribbon -- naked. Then, after a good, hard, read, I'll cram it into a soft, plain, envelope and ship it off to CGC. I'll repost the re-submitted grade after it comes back (although with pics, of course). This should determine once and for all:

 

1. If I'm nuts, or

 

2. If CGC will regrade it a 9.9 or something a bit lower.

 

-- Brian (AKA Boston Corbett)

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Rock, this thread is about the Sale and your discussion about the arbitrary nature of 9.8-9.9 grades (which I don't disagree with) is not the point of this thread. If the book had sold for $200, no one would be discussing it but it didn't. So the sale is the issue of this thread. I agree that the purchase price was not a wise decision in terms of resale/investment but this sale is not about wise decisions it is about the addicitive nature of comic collecting and the illogical decisions comic collectors make in their pursuit of these comics. And as long as the buyer is using disposable income to purchase it I don't see the harm and that is my point.

 

The conversation...like all good conversations....veered off into a broader discussion.

 

This sale became the springboard for that broader discussion, but once it veered off into that discussion, the specific sale ceased to be the point.

 

Boston Corbett has already come along and given his rationale. You keep implying that I somehow think he shouldn't have spent his money this way, or he didn't have a right to, or he's harmed somebody. That's simply not true. As far as I'm concerned, he's aware of the negligible difference, and more power to him.

 

But not everyone is, and there are still people telling buyers that this 9.9 is substantially different from this 9.8, and it's worth the big money.

 

I don't want people to be burned because they don't know.

 

I don't want people to be burned because someone has convinced them that there's a substantial difference between these grades.

 

Conversations like this help prevent that.

 

Paying the huge premiums for 9.9 and 10s is madness. But..so long as everyone KNOWS it's madness, by all means, bring it on!

 

You must have really thin skin to take a harmless bit of sarcasm from me as a huge insult. If i had such thin skin, then I would be really offended by your attack on my opinion and your slight on my grammatical mistake. But I really don't care.

 

Yeah.

 

Ok.

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

[RockMyAmadeus]

This thread is REALLY going to get interesting when I put myself on YouTube, cracking the case as I eat chocolate fondu and guzzle Blue Ribbon -- naked. Then, after a good, hard, read, I'll cram it into a soft, plain, envelope and ship it off to CGC. I'll repost the re-submitted grade after it comes back (although with pics, of course). This should determine once and for all:

 

1. If I'm nuts, or

 

2. If CGC will regrade it a 9.9 or something a bit lower.

 

-- Brian (AKA Boston Corbett)

 

 

I'll pay the resub fees.....

 

[comicalgems]

This thread is REALLY going to get interesting when I put myself on YouTube, cracking the case as I eat chocolate fondu and guzzle Blue Ribbon -- naked. Then, after a good, hard, read, I'll cram it into a soft, plain, envelope and ship it off to CGC. I'll repost the re-submitted grade after it comes back (although with pics, of course). This should determine once and for all:

 

1. If I'm nuts, or

 

2. If CGC will regrade it a 9.9 or something a bit lower.

 

-- Brian (AKA Boston Corbett)

 

 

Hmm I think you should put that up for auction...."Want to see me crack open the 9.9 on Youtube?" and then donate the proceeds to http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3603786&nt=5&fpart=1

 

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

This thread is REALLY going to get interesting when I put myself on YouTube, cracking the case as I eat chocolate fondu and guzzle Blue Ribbon -- naked. Then, after a good, hard, read, I'll cram it into a soft, plain, envelope and ship it off to CGC. I'll repost the re-submitted grade after it comes back (although with pics, of course). This should determine once and for all:

 

1. If I'm nuts, or

 

2. If CGC will regrade it a 9.9 or something a bit lower.

 

-- Brian (AKA Boston Corbett)

 

 

My guess is you would've had a better time blowing $12k by going off for a weekend of slots 'n sluts in Vegas.

 

(thumbs u

[seanfingh]

 

 

I think if the NM #98 was cracked out and resubbed it has a really good chance at coming back a 9.8 instread of a 9.9 just becuse from 9.8 to 9.9 is definitely subjective.

 

Just my opinion.

 

 

That is the essence of what I have said (hopefully not in vain) this entire thread....

 

 

I'll disagree with John. He's saying that 9.0-9.8 is pretty cut and dry and then all of a sudden 9.8-9.9 isn't. I'd argue and say that 9.8-9.9 is the easiest to grade (besides 10.0-9.9) because you are dealing with the least amount of variables possible.

 

 

 

I said 8.5 to 9.8 is cut and dry.

 

I could give you ten books that got 9.9's and I bet you would call most of them 9.8's after I cracked them out for you to re-grade.

 

Especially if Vodka was involved.

 

...but you know me I would give most books that CGC gives a 9.8 a 9.6 grade.

 

I'd be willing to test that theory at a panel at SD next year.

 

Same book, three different grades...9.8. 9.9. 10.

 

Then, with a couple of independent, trustworthy witnesses, de-slab all the books, and have everyone pick which ones they thought graded what at CGC....

 

Then, after that's done, reveal what was what.

 

Then, after that's done....send the books back, under different accounts (so you can keep track of which book was which), and see if they all come back the same original grades.

 

It would probably work best with onsite slabbing, over a weekend.

 

Deslabbing a 10 is dicey. Any handling damage might affect the grade. But I think with 9.6 and 9.8, that'd be interesting. I think if you chose 9.4, 9.6, 9.8 -- you'd find that the books would likely come back in those grades.

 

I have deslabbed a ton of Bronze and Copper books for SS. I have dropped a grade doing onsite grading with a cracked vintage 9.4 or 9.6 when I have been with the witness three times. All three times, when I got the slab in hand, the grade looked soft and I knew it wouldn't hold. It was not handling damage, it was damage that took place in the slab or was soft from the get go. I've never had a modern or Copper 9.8 drop, because you can tell the ones that are soft and I would never crack a soft 9.8 mod.

[etanick]

general question about 9.9

 

since I never have one and the only one I see is the NM 98, I like to know the criteria if anyone care to explain.

 

can a 9.9 has a not perfect centered cut? or does everything must be near perfect? assuming a book as perfect corners and spine but it is miswrap or miscut, can a book with this printing flaw gets a 9.9?

 

I am under the impression that a 9.9 doesn't have to be perfectly centered book.

 

 

[Flaming_Telepath]

general question about 9.9

 

since I never have one and the only one I see is the NM 98, I like to know the criteria if anyone care to explain.

 

can a 9.9 has a not perfect centered cut? or does everything must be near perfect? assuming a book as perfect corners and spine but it is miswrap or miscut, can a book with this printing flaw gets a 9.9?

 

I am under the impression that a 9.9 doesn't have to be perfectly centered book.

 

 

Well, we could all guess, but in the absence of published grading standards...who really knows?

 

But despite this, it's well worth plonking down $12,500 on one! (thumbs u

[VintageComics]

If you look over the Overstreet Grading Guide, these pages and charts show that within the 9.9 grade you are allowed 1-1.5 defects that can vary in size from 1/32" - 1/8" depending on the quantity...ie one 1/8" defect or two 1/32" defects.

 

So it is reasonable to interpret that if the miswrap is less than 1/8" (about 3mm) and the rest of the book is flawless (free of handling defects) that the book should still be able to grade a 9.9.

 

 

[VintageComics]

But despite this, it's well worth plonking down $12,500 on one! (thumbs u

 

Sarcasm.

 

[Marvelfangirl]

If you look over the Overstreet Grading Guide, these pages and charts show that within the 9.9 grade you are allowed 1-1.5 defects that can vary in size from 1/32" - 1/8" depending on the quantity...ie one 1/8" defect or two 1/32" defects.

 

So it is reasonable to interpret that if the miswrap is less than 1/8" (about 3mm) and the rest of the book is flawless (free of handling defects) that the book should still be able to grade a 9.9.

 

 

very interesting

[short_box-migration]

Did Overstreet use both Split Grades and the +/- Grades before CGC showed up? (Haven't bought one in a long time).

 

Anyone know?