Clean, press, resubmit, flip...clean, press, resubmit, flip...

[sborock]

You are mssing the point, bullet. I am saying (and others are saying) that the Purple label sticks out like a sore thumb and many if not most CGC collectors do not want Purple labels in their collection. But if CGC used the same color label for all books and used a "CGC Restored Grade" as the label title, a grade like 9.0RP with description of the restoration.

 

As far as your "why would anyone in there right mind" question - the point isn't about if that makes sense - the point is that the PLOD is so disliked that a raw book with described restoration stands a better chance.

 

I have a feeling that if CGC had done that all along, we would now be talking about RDOD or QDOD. (R Designation of Death/Q Designation of Death).

 

THANK YOU!

 

Awwwww are we getting fwustwated?

 

Not really, but I know it makes some people feel better if they think so

[PovertyRow]

You are mssing the point, bullet. I am saying (and others are saying) that the Purple label sticks out like a sore thumb and many if not most CGC collectors do not want Purple labels in their collection. But if CGC used the same color label for all books and used a "CGC Restored Grade" as the label title, a grade like 9.0RP with description of the restoration.

 

As far as your "why would anyone in there right mind" question - the point isn't about if that makes sense - the point is that the PLOD is so disliked that a raw book with described restoration stands a better chance.

 

I have a feeling that if CGC had done that all along, we would now be talking about RDOD or QDOD. (R Designation of Death/Q Designation of Death).

 

THANK YOU!

 

Awwwww are we getting fwustwated?

 

Not really, but I know it makes some people feel better if they think so

 

Ah! Dagnabbit!

[WernerVonDoom]

 

I have a feeling that if CGC had done that all along, we would now be talking about RDOD or QDOD. (R Designation of Death/Q Designation of Death).

 

That may well be, but the arguments would certainly sound sillier. Restoration HAS to be disclosed. I doubt anyone would disagree with that (except for a few ebay sellers). But I also think it cannot be denied that more books with slight restoration in the Blue holders sell than PLOD books with similar amounts of restoration - and for one reason - the purple label sticks out like a PLOD.

 

I don't buy it. Let's say for some reason CGC had originally decided to have different colored labels for the Universal books. Black, Blue, Orange. Would black labeled universal Hulk 181 9.4s be more valuable than the same book with the orange label? I seriously doubt it - maybe an extra $10-$20 for reholdering. PLOD should be called DROD (Detected Restoration of Death).

[PovertyRow]

I don't buy it.

 

Yes - that is my point!

 

Sorry - in work now and actually working so looks like continue in the evening.

 

I WOULD like to say this entire thread has been remarkably civil, considering the pasions such a topic can invoke!

[garthgantu]

Seriously, the amount of restoration (and quality to a certain degree), needs to be factored into the COLLECTIBLITY VALUE of the book. Right now, any amount of restoration / preservation, even if it really has ZERO IMPACT on the grade, has reduced the COLLECTIBILTY VALUE to almost nothing.

 

Thank You!!

 

This is exactly the point. There's considerable confusion/anxiety in the marketplace when it comes to PLODs. So to be safe, most collectors/buyers use a simple rule of thumb: if it's plum-colored, run - don't walk - away! How is that right? It truly makes no sense to me that a VF Hulk #2 with a drop of color touch on the back cover, even if professionally applied and ultimately removeable, is worth less than a VG Hulk #2, when the former is in a PLOD and the latter is in a Universal Blue holder. CGC has not done much to clarify the issue of restoration; instead, it has set itself up as the official arbiter of WHAT constitutes restoration, without providing a full and detailed description of what criteria CGC uses to make that determination.

 

I think CGC would prefer to avoid the issue altogether. But that's not an option. So they surveyed a few BSDs back in the day, got a sense of where the "cut-off point" should be in terms of 'allowable' restoration on older books, and drew a line in the sand that they felt most of their larger prospective customers could live with. Now CGC is stuck with a system that doesn't really work, but is causing further stigmatization of restored books.

 

Though I can see why CGC likes its current position on restoration; ultimately, if the trend of avoiding restored books keeps up, and the Dupcaks of the world keep duping people, there will be collectors who refuse to buy a book that's more than 20 years old if it's not slabbed. How great is that for CGC?

[Bullet123]

I do not think I am missing the point....You say that collectors do not want purple labels in their collection because they stand out. That is the whole point in the purple label. To easily distinguish those books. Its sound to me that the whole purple label issue is more of a sour grapes thing. A lot of great Golden Age greats were restored ( some with the intention of deceit, some not) but because there was some deceit in earlier years in the hobby with regards to undisclosed restoration, people have soured to the restored book. I believe that over time Rare high grade books that are mildly restored will earn their place in peoples collections because you will not have much choice.But they will never command the respect and multiples that an unrestored book will. They are meant to be treated differently because they are.

[Aman619]

every time th eidea that restored book swill be welcomed back into th efold someday because there will not be enough to go around always rings true. BUt, wait... most of us also agree that the readership has cratered to such a degree that there will most certainly be FEWER collectors down the road.

 

Sooo, where is this extra demand going to come from, do ya think??

[HooDeeDoo]

If pressing is "restoration", then all the Mile High books that were on the bottom of those 6-foot stacks are restored.

 

Pressing isn't restoration - it's pressing.

[fantastic_four]

You are mssing the point, bullet. I am saying (and others are saying) that the Purple label sticks out like a sore thumb and many if not most CGC collectors do not want Purple labels in their collection. But if CGC used the same color label for all books and used a "CGC Restored Grade" as the label title, a grade like 9.0RP with description of the restoration.

 

It would have minimal effect; 90% of the people who won't buy PLOD books today still wouldn't buy them if they all had the same label color.

 

The primary reason restoration fell out of favor over the last decade or two is not so much because people don't like "frankenstein" books; that camp was around before restoration fell out of favor. Restoration prices primarily have declined because more and more people are selling books with undisclosed restoration to maximize their profits on comics which are already mid-to-high-grade and didn't need the work done in the first place. People have come to associate restoration with scamming, and it has greatly overshadowed the original reasons people wanted restored books in decades past.

 

People pay lower prices for PLOD books these days less because of the label color and more because CGC has upset a HUGE segment of the high-end collecting community by having the unfortunate task of informing them that their books aren't the unrestored gems they always thought they had been. The CGC slab has brought professional restoration detection to the masses, and the masses are unhappy with the money they've lost to undisclosed work. The knee-jerk response to that the sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach once you realize one of your books is restored is to begin loathing all restoration; it's takes a while for most of us to get over our bad experiences.

 

CGC can change the color of their label, but it's not going to bring restored prices back to their previous levels until the greedy, slight restorers aren't still giving the art a bad name...and I doubt that will ever stop. It's a side effect of the large dollar amounts comics have reached. Think about what's going to happen to every customer of our good friend featured in last week's CBG article. Once they realize what's been done to them, a bunch of them will get out of high-end comics altogether, and out of the ones who stay, they're going to associate restoration with scam artists for a long time to come. Before CGC and the knowledge about restoration they've infused into the hobby, those people may not have discovered the restoration for decades, if ever.

[PovertyRow]

If pressing is "restoration", then all the Mile High books that were on the bottom of those 6-foot stacks are restored.

 

There IS a distinct distinction between the Mile Highs being pressed and pressing a "regular" book.

 

Those Mile Highs in their tall stacks basically never saw handling. Their condition was MAINTAINED due to the storage conditions.

 

"Regular" books, during the course of handling, will get bent, wrinkled, wavy etc. Their condition is ALTERED by pressing to more closely reflect their pre-handled days.

[lou_fine]

Just a note of interest to the forum members here. You should check out the thread by Timely requesting CGC to "Get rid of the PLOD and GLOD...... a little further down. This thread goes into a lot more detail on the need for a unified colour labelling system.

 

Check it out since it is an excellent thread with some convincing arguments on both sides of the issue. I have to take my kids to the doctor right now so I will not be able to add my point of view on this topic until this evening.

 

Talk to you guys later.

[fantastic_four]

If pressing is "restoration", then all the Mile High books that were on the bottom of those 6-foot stacks are restored.

 

Pressing isn't restoration - it's pressing.

 

I don't have a personal problem with pressing either. What about if the cover is removed to do the pressing? I believe that's when CGC begins calling it restoration--that is, when they detect the removal.

[fantastic_four]

Just a note of interest to the forum members here. You should check out the thread by Timely requesting CGC to "Get rid of the PLOD and GLOD...... a little further down. This thread goes into a lot more detail on the need for a unified colour labelling system.

 

We debated this topic two or three times in the past, also. In mid-2002, I was gung-ho in favor of getting rid of the purple label...since then, I've come to believe that CGC shining a light on the work of undisclosed restorers has contributed more to the decline of the restoration market than anything else.

 

Education is the primary way to bring the restored market back. Some of the coin guys participated in one of the PLOD debates a year or so ago, and they said that coins went through the same phase during the mid-to-late 1980s with restored coins dipping to record lows. One said that eventually--after a decade or two--people got used to the idea and the restored market recovered; my hope is that educating people about restoration, conservation, and PARTICULARLY restoration detection will have a similar effect in the comics world.

[PovertyRow]

I do not think I am missing the point....You say that collectors do not want purple labels in their collection because they stand out. That is the whole point in the purple label. To easily distinguish those books. Its sound to me that the whole purple label issue is more of a sour grapes thing. A lot of great Golden Age greats were restored ( some with the intention of deceit, some not) but because there was some deceit in earlier years in the hobby with regards to undisclosed restoration, people have soured to the restored book. I believe that over time Rare high grade books that are mildly restored will earn their place in peoples collections because you will not have much choice.But they will never command the respect and multiples that an unrestored book will. They are meant to be treated differently because they are.

 

OK - first to clarify my POV (hah hah) on restoration.

 

A general but vital point. I read often here a big reason restoration is despised so much is that it was not revealed and a lot of people got hurt. I agree with that. But I also feel that argument has no relevancy here as we are discussing slabbed books that have restoration disclosed.

 

1) I feel that any restoration, no matter how slight, should be revealed

2) I feel that cleaning is restoration

3) I feel that pressing is restoration (see my answer to HooDee) above

4) I rarely buy CGCd books and the two pre-code horror ones I DID buy I ended up removing from the slab. I have no grapes to be sour over.

 

With that said, the points I am trying to make are:

1) Most collectors will just leaf right by the Purple Label because the Purple label stands out like a sore thumb

2) Many of those collectors cited above would stop and consider a Blue Universal Label book that had a restoration disclosure

3) I believe that more Blue labeled books with restoration fully disclosed on the label and the Grades looking like 8.5RAS, or 7.0RPM (Resto Amatuer Slight, Resto Professional Moderate etc) would be bought than the same books in their Purple labels

4) If the words CGC Restored Grade replacing CGC Universal Grade and the 8.5RAS and the associated restoration notes are not enough to make folks understand this is a restored book, then I fear for that person.

5) My real issue with the purple label is simply that I feel CGC has, by using these different labels, gone into the marketing end of the business where they should be strictly and solely in the reporting end of the business in as objective a manner as possible.

 

 

 

[sterlingcomics]

If pressing is "restoration", then all the Mile High books that were on the bottom of those 6-foot stacks are restored.

 

Pressing isn't restoration - it's pressing.

 

I concur.

[Timely]

I am not into other collectibles, but does anyone know if they use different color labels on coins and cards if they have restoration? I'd really like to know!

 

How do they handle restored submissions?

 

Timely

[chrisco37]

That's a really good question. As someone (FF?) pointed out, some of the coinee's gave input on this about a year ago. I'll go post them a question in the Coin Forum...

 

Chris

[PovertyRow]

If pressing is "restoration", then all the Mile High books that were on the bottom of those 6-foot stacks are restored.

 

Pressing isn't restoration - it's pressing.

 

I concur.

 

It is restoration.

[Lantern]

If pressing is "restoration", then all the Mile High books that were on the bottom of those 6-foot stacks are restored.

 

Pressing isn't restoration - it's pressing.

 

I concur.

 

It is restoration.

 

presstoration

 

[Bronty]

Debatable