Re: How to remove eBay negative feedback 101!

[comicwiz]

Not sure if anyone heard about this recent story; but basically, it's about a seller who managed to figure out a way to alter the listing page to hide their true feedback profile riddled with negs, and replace it with one with a bogus profile, and glowing feedback.

 

I found it remarkable for two reasons really. One because this is not the first time this has happened; in fact, one of the first times this happened, it sent a huge shockwave in the market, and eBay stock actually dropped the day the news got out. Ironically, when this recent story broke, not all major newspapers covered the story

 

Secondly, because a little over a year ago, I came up with some advanced coding for a template I was going to use for my comic auctions on eBay. I wasn't satisfed with the way the design template was showing on eBay -- but I also noticed that somehow, my feedback number had disappeared next to my id

 

I could just have easily used the template, and dropped in bogus number and feedback profile (which I actually worked on for both experimentation and demonstration purposes to better explain the problem to eBay), and contacted eBay about the vulnerability. They replied asking me not to use the code, but in reality, if I had never contacted them, and used it, they might well NEVER have done anything about it. Its just not one of those flukes in coding that doesn't warrant the kind of activity that might otherwise set off red flags, or send eBay robots in a fit/frenzy.... that is until a few people get roped and report it!

 

I ended up using the template on my www.comicwiz.com site, so it wasn't all for naught. But the point of this post was intended to really say that eBay knew about these vulnerabilities (as I clearly detailed in my email to them about it, and how Javascript coding could disable the feedback profile from a listing page), and they still ended-up getting embroiled in an ugly situation. Unfortunately, IMO, this kind of activity does very little to instill confidence in their services, whether that be a newbie, or a seasoned eBay veteran. But its their reluctance and complacency in dealing with this problem -- especially in light of their recent design changes -- just one of the many reason why eBay continues to be a laughing stock amongs Federal Trade Commision officials.

 

Anyone else heard about this? What are your thoughts/insights on the matter?

[musicmeta]

It's very scary to me that Ebay CAN allow this to happen.

Imagine buying a book from a seller with SUPPOSEDLY perfect positive feedback only to know it's nothing but a sham! VERY SCARY indeed.

[sterlingcomics]

Remarkable information---very scary stuff indeed. This sounds like a technology issue that they should address for security reasons. I agree that this information hasn't appeared to have leaked out to the massess...

[burntboy]

i'm with sterling here, haven't heard a peep about this.

 

of course with all of the stolen ID auctions that i've alerted them to, nothing surprises me.

 

about 2-6 months ago the exact same set of 19 UNIQUE CGC'd books was put up for auction by 7 different sellers over a span of a couple of months. despite pointing out everyone of them to e-bay, they never seemed to put a fix in place to weed out future similar frauds. i contacted the sellers on 3-4 occasions and got another 3-4 different contacts. if it wasn't so wrong it would be hilarious.

 

and the negative feedback removal makes this all-the-more interesting, as negs are otherwise impossible to get removed........ (hell, even after finding that i did get totally screwed by an e-bay seller and refunding the max award, they still wouldn't remove the sellers negs which were retalitory)

[comicwiz]

It's very scary to me that Ebay CAN allow this to happen.

Imagine buying a book from a seller with SUPPOSEDLY perfect positive feedback only to know it's nothing but a sham! VERY SCARY indeed.

 

The coding for the following is a "div", which is a layer which can sit right on top of a web page. If that layer uses a bold background or an image, it can cover the area directly beneath it.

 

The other thing about div's is that they use coordinates to place them on a page. Here is an example of a layer containing my eBay ID and feedback -- simulated exactly as it appears on the eBay site, with working links and all:

 

www.comicwiz.com( 49)

Just above the members regular feedback.

Just above the members regular feedback.

Just above the members regular feedback.

 

Not I don't have a stuttering problem. I wrote the sentence above three times to illustrate how a layer actually works. If you notice, the first sentence is covered by the ID/Feedback link. This is because the div/layer uses a background which places a rectangular box around the link, to whatever dimensions I specfiy. So ideally, I could have covered the entire sentence, but didn't for effect -- to illustrate how div/layers are able to cover certain areas of a web page, text and images. Because there are Javascript restrictions on this board, I couldn't really show you the full range of things that can be done layers and div's on a web site

 

In such a situation, one can hyperlink the fake member ID and feedback link above to a fudged up feedback profile. How many times have we seen frauds pull off realistic eBay email scams -- seeming like they are coming from eBay themselves.

 

Because div's use coordinates to place them on a web site page, if you spend some time, and experment long enough, you could find yourself covering certain links and eBay tags on an auction listing page -- very easily. As far as I know, there are no restictions on div/layer usage, but that might all change soon.

 

Unfortunately, I don't think eBay will restrict Javascript use anytime soon, and until it does, it opens itself up to a wide range of vulnerabilities, that if placed in the wrong hands, could serve in tricks like feedback tampering one of the pillars of trust for eBay's online trading system.

[musicmeta]

Thanks for this incredible information you've exposed. I hope Ebay addresses these issues SOON!

[comicwiz]

Thanks for this incredible information you've exposed. I hope Ebay addresses these issues SOON!

 

Its the least I can do, as I know quite a few people on these boards use eBay. Mind you most of the forumites here are savvy enough to pick-up on certain scams. Nonetheless, I'm a strong believer in information sharing, and helping people making informed decisions when it comes to doing business online.

 

The one thing I've been pushing on to the FTC through written emails, and telephone contact is to have a special section on eBay related abuses, fraud reports, and tips to to help consumers avoid getting scammed. They seem to have such great informational/educational resources for other industry specific scams, that it seems fitting that they have a special section specific to eBay.

 

I'd imagine eBay would have a fit over such a move, but their complacency in dealing with important issues like this should be a no-brainer for the FTC to take action themselves. The logic about dealing with frauds AFTER the fact is wrong at so many levels. And eBay is far to large an entity now for it to remain a non-regulated organization, especially in light of the "rights of passage" turnstyle attitude used by thousands fraudsters each day.

[FlComicFan]

ebay will remove negatives if the feedback contains any curse words.... pretty easy for a seller to leave a nasty response to their own feedback then email ebay asking it to censor the curse words Feedback and response both magically dissapear

[Rob]

If you check their announcement board, they are going to soon offer feedback removal on mutual agreement. Maybe they figure if they give people the chance to work out negative feedback to have it removed, people won't try to do it illegally.

[comicwiz]

ebay will remove negatives if the feedback contains any curse words.... pretty easy for a seller to leave a nasty response to their own feedback then email ebay asking it to censor the curse words Feedback and response both magically dissapear

 

I've heard that eBay also uses its own discretion in "removing" a negative which contains vulgarity/profanity. My understanding is that they do allow some leeway if its a one-time charge, and even then, there are no guarantees. But if someone decides to make it a habit of using this practice to clear their dirty laundry, then your request not only falls on deaf ears, but depending the severity of the circumstance, any use of vulgairty may cause you an undertemined period of suspension, to an outight ban.

[comicwiz]

If you check their announcement board, they are going to soon offer feedback removal on mutual agreement. Maybe they figure if they give people the chance to work out negative feedback to have it removed, people won't try to do it illegally.

 

Hey Rob

 

Welcome back to the boards

 

Do you have a link to this announcement on feedback removal?

[Rob]

Announcement

 

FAQ

 

***Feedback Policy Change: Mutual Feedback Withdrawal***

Date: 01/28/04 Time: 03:45:34 PM PST

 

 

Our goal with feedback continues to be rooted in enabling safe trading practices and encouraging interactions consistent with our marketplace values.

 

As such, we are happy to introduce Mutual Feedback Withdrawal, a new policy that gives members more options in removing feedback ratings. Effective the week of February 9th, this new policy enables two members, who have already agreed, to withdraw their feedback.

 

Driven by Community demand for choices about withdrawing feedback, this policy addresses common issues over inadvertent and regretted feedback. Please note that members can still use SquareTrade to help resolve disputes and/or address feedback issues when you and another member cannot satisfactorily resolve a dispute, or the other member doesn't respond to mediation requests.

 

The Mutual Feedback Withdrawal policy includes the following key components:

 

 

Withdrawn feedback means the feedback rating, which can impact the member's feedback score, is removed. The text of the feedback comment, however, will remain in the Member Profile.

 

To help people understand the withdrawn feedback comment, the following note will be placed in the Member Profile: "Rating Withdrawn: Buyer and seller mutually agreed to withdraw feedback for this item". In cases where one member did not participate in SquareTrade mediation, the administrative note will be "Rating withdrawn: Member who left this feedback did not respond to formal mediation request".

 

The Member Profile will include the total number of times a member has withdrawn feedback.

We encourage our members to review the comprehensive FAQ on the process and policy surrounding Mutual Feedback Withdrawal.

 

Each feedback rating – whether positive, neutral, or negative – is part of a member's personal reputation and enables trust in the eBay Marketplace. We hope that you find that this policy helps you continue to build a complete reputation by trading with honesty, fairness and respect.

 

If you have suggestions, please email them to us at feedbackdesign@ebay.com.

 

Regards,

eBay

[garthgantu]

ebay will remove negatives if the feedback contains any curse words.... pretty easy for a seller to leave a nasty response to their own feedback then email ebay asking it to censor the curse words Feedback and response both magically dissapear

 

Doesn't work this way, in my experience. I negged a guy for overgrading, and he negged me back, and used some questionable language in doing so. His neg to me was removed, but my neg to him stayed.

[comicwiz]

Doesn't work this way, in my experience. I negged a guy for overgrading, and he negged me back, and used some questionable language in doing so. His neg to me was removed, but my neg to him stayed.

 

This is very common garthgantu. I know at least two other people with which this kind of situation happened.

[garthgantu]

Yeah, agreed. It's probably not unusual...I was just pointing out that this example is probably where the rumor got started that you could somehow get a neg removed from your fb by responding with vulgarity... from my experience, it seems like the drones at eBay customer service handle these kinds of things on a case-by-case basis, so they don't have some automated process that could be "gamed" all that easily...

[mitol]

Doesn't work this way, in my experience. I negged a guy for overgrading, and he negged me back, and used some questionable language in doing so. His neg to me was removed, but my neg to him stayed.

 

Hasn't worked for me yet. I called the seller who left me a retaliatory an "A$$" and eBay hasn't removed it yet. I'll use more "effective" language next time.

[comicwiz]

Yeah, agreed. It's probably not unusual...I was just pointing out that this example is probably where the rumor got started that you could somehow get a neg removed from your fb by responding with vulgarity... from my experience, it seems like the drones at eBay customer service handle these kinds of things on a case-by-case basis, so they don't have some automated process that could be "gamed" all that easily...

 

You are absolutely correct.

 

For a long time on these boards, it was rumored that this is the method comic-keys used to have negative feedback removed. A rumor which inspired many people to try this themselves, only to discover that feedback removal is a lot more complicated than everyone may have initially thought, and takes a lot more than using a few choice expletives.

[comicwiz]

Hasn't worked for me yet. I called the seller who left me a retaliatory an "A$$" and eBay hasn't removed it yet. I'll use more "effective" language next time.

 

If you'd like, I can teach you some very "effective" words in Italian!