How in the world did this go unnoticed???

[markseifert]

My point, Brian, is that sentiments change

 

yeah. it's pretty clear from the outside that even though (stating the obvious) there's still huge controversy over this issue, general opinion has shifted strongly over the past year or two.

[Foolkiller]

What I refuse to accept is the parameters you've set for this discussion which means attacking something as "morally wrong" when in reality you've provided no foundation -- it's ultimately just an expression of your feeling of preference.

Isn't that true of trimming as well? That it's ultimately just an expression of your feeling of preference?

 

Trimming a comic isn't illegal. Trimming might be nearly impossible to detect and improve "grade". Trimming was once a commercially offered treatment and opinions evolved over time against the practice.

 

I guess I'm not understanding why "morally wrong" conclusions are widely accepted against a specific treatment (trimming), but then rejected out of hand when applied to any other treatments.

Well said.

 

Plus all these distinctions about something being legal or illegal drive me nuts. The difference between something being legal and illegal is because a law was passed by our duly elected representatives or there was a ruling by a court, not because it was handed down from high to Moses. Many things that are now illegal used to be legal. Many things that are now legal used to be illegal. Things change, so the fact that something is legal or illegal is not the last word on whether something is right or wrong.

 

How about this, trimming has been rejected by almost the entire comic book community and there is clear establishment that a trimmed comic book sells for less... so it would clearly be "fraudulent" to pass a trimmed comic book as original.

 

No such data or sentiment exists regarding pressing.

My point, Brian, is that sentiments change, whether they rise to the level of an enactment of law, and they usually change as the result of a few voices that refuse to shut up. These changes even happen within the comic community, as those of us who've been around long enough can remember.

 

For example, restoration used to be viewed much more benignly in this hobby and while not as accepted as pressing is today, was still generally accepted. Whether trimming specifically was also viewed benignly, I don't remember because I don't think a distinction was drawn between trimming and restoration. It was all simply lumped together as "restoration" at the time. In any event, I can remember reading angry columns by Keith Contarino during that period opposing restoration. Over the years, the consensus changed and restoration became viewed much more negatively, and as you say, trimming in particular became viewed as anathema.

 

The hope of the anti-pressers is that someday the consensus on pressing will change too. It's not written in stone that because it's accepted now, that it will forever be accepted. If the anti-pressers don't continue to speak up, however, then obviously the status quo, pressing, will continue unabated.

 

The difference with pressing and the other forms of restoration is that

 

A) it's difficult if not impossible to reliably detect.

 

B) since people make money off of pressing and the majority of collectors are, on some level, interested in making money one day off of their collection (especially if they have sunk a lot of money). This is fundamentally why pressing is going to stay. Collectors are currently driving and accepting this practice. And as others have pointed out Tim, these pressing threads appear to have simply spurred more interest in pressing, not less.

[tth2]

And as others have pointed out Tim, these pressing threads appear to have simply spurred more interest in pressing, not less.

Well, if I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't, I might as well do.

[jbud73]

We're on exactly the same sheet of music here, Jason.

 

someone note the time and day ... Actually we tend to agree in the end even if its to disagree

 

I was actually through HK on my way to Dhaka in Nov..just on a lay over in the airport though. If I'm back in SE Asia this summer I'll let you know maybe we can grab dinner and a few drinks.

 

Hope all is well...

[sborock]

Hope all the usual suspects are well, and that out paths cross at some point this year.

 

 

Jason

 

You were missed in SF this year! Not the same without ya!

 

 

 

 

[jbud73]

What I refuse to accept is the parameters you've set for this discussion which means attacking something as "morally wrong" when in reality you've provided no foundation -- it's ultimately just an expression of your feeling of preference.

Isn't that true of trimming as well? That it's ultimately just an expression of your feeling of preference?

 

Trimming a comic isn't illegal. Trimming might be nearly impossible to detect and improve "grade". Trimming was once a commercially offered treatment and opinions evolved over time against the practice.

 

I guess I'm not understanding why "morally wrong" conclusions are widely accepted against a specific treatment (trimming), but then rejected out of hand when applied to any other treatments.

Well said.

 

Plus all these distinctions about something being legal or illegal drive me nuts. The difference between something being legal and illegal is because a law was passed by our duly elected representatives or there was a ruling by a court, not because it was handed down from high to Moses. Many things that are now illegal used to be legal. Many things that are now legal used to be illegal. Things change, so the fact that something is legal or illegal is not the last word on whether something is right or wrong.

 

How about this, trimming has been rejected by almost the entire comic book community and there is clear establishment that a trimmed comic book sells for less... so it would clearly be "fraudulent" to pass a trimmed comic book as original.

 

No such data or sentiment exists regarding pressing.

My point, Brian, is that sentiments change, whether they rise to the level of an enactment of law, and they usually change as the result of a few voices that refuse to shut up. These changes even happen within the comic community, as those of us who've been around long enough can remember.

 

For example, restoration used to be viewed much more benignly in this hobby and while not as accepted as pressing is today, was still generally accepted. Whether trimming specifically was also viewed benignly, I don't remember because I don't think a distinction was drawn between trimming and restoration. It was all simply lumped together as "restoration" at the time. In any event, I can remember reading angry columns by Keith Contarino during that period opposing restoration. Over the years, the consensus changed and restoration became viewed much more negatively, and as you say, trimming in particular became viewed as anathema.

 

The hope of the anti-pressers is that someday the consensus on pressing will change too. It's not written in stone that because it's accepted now, that it will forever be accepted. If the anti-pressers don't continue to speak up, however, then obviously the status quo, pressing, will continue unabated.

 

The difference with pressing and the other forms of restoration is that

 

A) it's difficult if not impossible to reliably detect.

 

B) since people make money off of pressing and the majority of collectors are, on some level, interested in making money one day off of their collection (especially if they have sunk a lot of money). This is fundamentally why pressing is going to stay. Collectors are currently driving and accepting this practice. And as others have pointed out Tim, these pressing threads appear to have simply spurred more interest in pressing, not less.

 

A) Currently the case, but this may not always be so.

 

B) I wonder if A) were not always the case, will the corner that the hobby leaps into preclude it from reassessing NDP? What if NDP is shown to have long term detrimental effects to the books? Pressing is in effect absolute in terms of ability to reverse, I wonder if the road we are embarking on, the reasons for embarking on it and the people leading the hobby there have the best interests of this hobby in mind?

 

That last part was rhetorical as I believe they do not. Similarly I do not think that altruism has been at the center of much in the creation of any collectibles market "at its height of maturity" - that said I also believe that comicdom today includes more people than ever that are diametrically opposed to the preservation of the history and the physical construct of the hobby, the actual comic book itself. I have to admit to cringing just a little every time I see "thank goodness comics are commodities."

 

I guess the only salient point of clarity is just that, at least to the members of this board, "all the cards, or commodities if you will are on the table.

 

[tth2]

I was actually through HK on my way to Dhaka in Nov..just on a lay over in the airport though. If I'm back in SE Asia this summer I'll let you know maybe we can grab dinner and a few drinks.

 

Hope all is well...

Jason, I would be insulted if you passed through HK and didn't let me know!

 

Definitely let me know if you do, so we can try to meet up! (thumbs u Amazingly, you'd actually be my 4th Boardie visitor here!

[sckao]

 

Most people probably appreciate civil discourse and agreeing to disagree and hoping that with enough dissent that the majority/prevailing opinion will change.

 

When the discourse starts to boil down to calling fellow collectors names or other vitriolic words simply because of a difference in opinion, that person needs to step back and reassess their current active participation in this hobby.

 

(I would suggest refraining from selling any books until the tide changes and you are reasonably sure that the comics you have been protecting will remain in the same state after you have sold them.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jbud73]

Hope all the usual suspects are well, and that out paths cross at some point this year.

 

 

Jason

 

You were missed in SF this year! Not the same without ya!

 

 

 

 

Hey man missed seeing you as well. I plan to be at WonderCon and one of the Chicago cons this year, still a tad confused as to which on is "the" Chicago Comic Con to be at though I'm sure MoodDog or Donut will set me straight.

 

Hope to run into you at an event soon to get drunk and chat about stuff, especially OA love the direction lately of your collection, trying to acquire a Jusko painting myself. Actually looking forward to adding another piece at Heritage next month, congrats on the assembling the pieces for auction - very interested in one in particular....... I hear Gene is "done buying" right Gene so I may have a shot

[sckao]

 

In order to actually get the prevailing opinion (or at least bring the issue up to as many people as possible), here's an idea:

 

We propose a carefully worded POLL that is run in all industry magazines, news sources, websites, and comic stores.

 

This Poll/questionnaire assesses the state of the comic industry. It can be run in Overstreet and in CBG, etc. Done annually, it can provide a bird's eye view of the state of the comic book hobby from a wide selection of collectors, not just the collectors on this message board.

 

 

[adamstrange]

This overstating the case. I started collecting in 1986 and by 1989 had sworn off GA because of the undisclosed restoration I was encountering. There was a short period of time in the early 90s where dealers found some "fresh meat" whom they were able to convince that restoration didn't matter (or to whom they did not disclose restoration). There were quite a number of folks who abandoned the hobby as a result while others looked upon the experience as an unpleasant and expensive educational opportunity but continued to collect. I have thought that the subsequent slump in GA was substantially due to this practice.

 

This in no way implies anything regarding current practice of pressing or how it might be viewed in the future. If it does become an opprobrium it will be because it has established a new precedent.

[Filter81]

This thread has reached unfathomable levels of ego and stupidity.

 

But for the reader, it has become quite amusing. It made me missed a bunch of great books from Filter81 on ebay. Damn you stinking pressing threads!!!!!!

 

What?!

 

Come on Mods! This thread needs to go!!!

[szelim]

This thread has reached unfathomable levels of ego and stupidity.

 

But for the reader, it has become quite amusing. It made me missed a bunch of great books from Filter81 on ebay. Damn you stinking pressing threads!!!!!!

 

What?!

 

Come on Mods! This thread needs to go!!!

Yeah, that will put an end to this "discussion".

 

[Subliminal]

This thread has reached unfathomable levels of ego and stupidity.

 

But for the reader, it has become quite amusing. It made me missed a bunch of great books from Filter81 on ebay. Damn you stinking pressing threads!!!!!!

 

What?!

 

Come on Mods! This thread needs to go!!!

Yeah, that will put an end to this "discussion".

 

CGC probably doesn't want to publish a poll asking collectors what they think of books being manipulated by artificial means to higher grades because the whole crack,press and resub is a great profit making facet of the current market.

More importantly a poll like this will drive more to be aware of the difference between two books of the same "number" and make discriminating HG collectors more discriminating and demand the real deal not the "wannabe" contender book and that is more likely to decrease the number of books slabbed in the future.

I personally think if they spent some time doing serious research they could design a scientific method to test the paper of a book and tell it has been exposed to extreme heat and moisture recently. This could be a beneficial service for collectors and become a positive revenue generator more in line with what most people commonly rely upon them for, which is a restoration checking service.

 

Pressing detection is the first serious fork in the road in CGC's history and if they ignore it they risk a contender emerging in the grading and restoration service market taking up that challenge and picking up the ball if they see collectors increasingly demanding this.

[Moondog]

This thread has reached unfathomable levels of ego and stupidity.

 

But for the reader, it has become quite amusing. It made me missed a bunch of great books from Filter81 on ebay. Damn you stinking pressing threads!!!!!!

 

What?!

 

Come on Mods! This thread needs to go!!!

Yeah, that will put an end to this "discussion".

 

CGC probably doesn't want to publish a poll asking collectors what they think of books being manipulated by artificial means to higher grades because the whole crack,press and resub is a great profit making facet of the current market.

More importantly a poll like this will drive more to be aware of the difference between two books of the same "number" and make discriminating HG collectors more discriminating and demand the real deal not the "wannabe" contender book and that is more likely to decrease the number of books slabbed in the future.

I personally think if they spent some time doing serious research they could design a scientific method to test the paper of a book and tell it has been exposed to extreme heat and moisture recently. This could be a beneficial service for collectors and become a positive revenue generator more in line with what most people commonly rely upon them for, which is a restoration checking service.

 

Pressing detection is the first serious fork in the road in CGC's history and if they ignore it they risk a contender emerging in the grading and restoration service market taking up that challenge and picking up the ball if they see collectors increasingly demanding this.

 

(thumbs u

[Scrooge]

I personally think if they spent some time doing serious research they could design a scientific method to test the paper of a book and tell it has been exposed to extreme heat and moisture recently.

 

[rob_allan]

 

I personally think if they spent some time doing serious research they could design a scientific method to test the paper of a book and tell it has been exposed to extreme heat and moisture recently. This could be a beneficial service for collectors and become a positive revenue generator more in line with what most people commonly rely upon them for, which is a restoration checking service.

 

 

This predisposes that a book is exposed to extreme heat and significant moisture during the process, which isn't entirely the case. My understanding is that detecting pressing has more to do with contextual evidence like condition of the rest of the book, evidence that there used to be a spine roll, etc. It would be, then, easier to detect whether a low grade book was pressed rather than a high grade book. And the money is the 9.2 - 9.6 jump or the 9.4 to 9.8 jump. Not a jump between 2.0 and 3.5. I would be shocked if there was any change to the paper that could be tied EXCLUSIVELY to pressing or that is present in all or even most cases of it. I could be wrong of course.

 

 

 

Pressing detection is the first serious fork in the road in CGC's history and if they ignore it they risk a contender emerging in the grading and restoration service market taking up that challenge and picking up the ball if they see collectors increasingly demanding this.

 

 

This, however, is spot-on. I'm still not convinced the issue is even visible to collectors at large (people not on these boards) but depending how much the hobby continues to educate itself, there might be room for a higher-level resto check that includes pressing. Even a service that admits it can only detect it 70% of the time but chooses to label those books might be preferable for some. And if a company started doing that, the pool of "pressing is not restoration" might shrink some if another company took a differing stance. My own opinion wouldn't be swayed, nor would the opinion of many on these boards. But I bet there would be impact there, and if that demographic changed there would be significant impact to the hobby.

 

-Rob-

[Sal]

I'm still not sure how any company that wants to make money grading comic books is going to survive by putting a "pressed" designation on any book that passes whatever nigh-miraculous test that can be developed.

 

I mean, even if somehow they can figure that a book has been artificially manipulated by being placed in a dry mount press and not just stuck under a set of encyclopedias, at the bottom of a large stack of books or wedged into a too tightly-packed longbox - which is a BIG FRIGGING IF - they still are going to have to deal with the same challenges CGC dealt with.

 

Which is all a red herring, anyway. CGC is the 3rd party grading company. Like it or not, but that's what we have today. A new company is not going to fix the "pressing problem." The only way people who don't want books to be pressed are going to 'win' is a two-stage plan.

 

Step one is to convince CGC that pressing detection is necessary.

 

Step two is to convince people who currently are either aware of pressing and don't care or who are unaware of pressing that they need to stop buying pressed books. Once people who press are hit in the wallet, they'll stop.

 

Good luck with that

[sborock]

I'm still not sure how any company that wants to make money grading comic books is going to survive by putting a "pressed" designation on any book that passes whatever nigh-miraculous test that can be developed.

 

I mean, even if somehow they can figure that a book has been artificially manipulated by being placed in a dry mount press and not just stuck under a set of encyclopedias, at the bottom of a large stack of books or wedged into a too tightly-packed longbox - which is a BIG FRIGGING IF - they still are going to have to deal with the same challenges CGC dealt with.

 

Which is all a red herring, anyway. CGC is the 3rd party grading company. Like it or not, but that's what we have today. A new company is not going to fix the "pressing problem." The only way people who don't want books to be pressed are going to 'win' is a two-stage plan.

 

Step one is to convince CGC that pressing detection is necessary.

 

Step two is to convince people who currently are either aware of pressing and don't care or who are unaware of pressing that they need to stop buying pressed books. Once people who press are hit in the wallet, they'll stop.

 

Good luck with that

 

Stop making sense!

[Mr. Zipper]

How about this, trimming has been rejected by almost the entire comic book community and there is clear establishment that a trimmed comic book sells for less... so it would clearly be "fraudulent" to pass a trimmed comic book as original.

 

If we turned the clock back 10 years and CGC policy was that "small amounts of trimming that left the book within off-the-press variances are impossible to detect with any consistancy, thus will garner a blue unrestored label."

 

Would trimming still be rejected by almost the entire comic book community?