How in the world did this go unnoticed???

[seanfingh]

I jst made a sandwich...but something is driving me NUTS. How do you toast the sub bread, heat the ham, aaaaand have the provolone cheese melted..if it all requires different temperatures..plus putting the the tomotoes and lettucce kept fresh before serving....it's going to be a daunting task..but, I am on a mission.. I WILL CREATE THE PERFECT SANDWICH>>>

 

You are risking legal action form Currin_Comics for infringing upon his "Sammitch" turf.

[Chespirito]

I jst made a sandwich...but something is driving me NUTS. How do you toast the sub bread, heat the ham, aaaaand have the provolone cheese melted..if it all requires different temperatures..plus putting the the tomotoes and lettucce kept fresh before serving....it's going to be a daunting task..but, I am on a mission.. I WILL CREATE THE PERFECT SANDWICH>>>

 

You are risking legal action form Currin_Comics for infringing upon his "Sammitch" turf.

Well...mine is more like a sub question.."sammitch" is more along the lines of wonderbread but..I will watch my lingo in requesting on how to melt provolone just right for the perfect 'senguich'

[VintageComics]

I say this thread will reach 2,000 posts before Monday

 

And the man who started this debacle is nowhere in this thread.

 

He's the smart one. Is that what you're saying?

 

[october]

 

Nothing is wrong with it. He can sell in any way he chooses. just as I can sell in a way that ensures that I am not leaving absurd amounts of money on the table. I use the word "absurd" for a reason. Unlike the "squeeze every dollar out of a book" strawman that Tim loves to throw around, I don't care about someone making some money on the comics I sell. I DO care about people making money that would have an appreciable impact on my financial situation if I was making it instead. $100 profit to the buyer? No worries. $2000 profit to the buyer? Worries.

 

Anyway, I am going to work. Can't believe I let myself get sucked into one of these threads.

 

What is an absurd amount of money?

 

The number is in my post. That's where I personally draw the line.

 

Do you ever buy books from someone else and make absurd amounts of money? If someone else is selling a book and you think it's undergraded, or too cheap, do you mention it, or grab it?

 

 

Of course, but it's not my job to educate other sellers, just as it's not a buyer's job to educate me. I have seen raw books I sold too cheaply end up pressed, slabbed and sold for more. I changed how I approach selling high dollar raw books because of it. The people who sometimes sell raw books too cheaply to me are free to do the same.

[DarkKnightReturns]

I jst made a sandwich...but something is driving me NUTS. How do you toast the sub bread, heat the ham, aaaaand have the provolone cheese melted..if it all requires different temperatures..plus putting the the tomotoes and lettucce kept fresh before serving....it's going to be a daunting task..but, I am on a mission.. I WILL CREATE THE PERFECT SANDWICH>>>

 

You are risking legal action form Currin_Comics for infringing upon his "Sammitch" turf.

Well...mine is more like a sub question.."sammitch" is more along the lines of wonderbread but..I will watch my lingo in requesting on how to melt provolone just right for the perfect 'senguich'

Sandwiches are played out btw. It's all about the panini these days

[Chespirito]

I jst made a sandwich...but something is driving me NUTS. How do you toast the sub bread, heat the ham, aaaaand have the provolone cheese melted..if it all requires different temperatures..plus putting the the tomotoes and lettucce kept fresh before serving....it's going to be a daunting task..but, I am on a mission.. I WILL CREATE THE PERFECT SANDWICH>>>

 

You are risking legal action form Currin_Comics for infringing upon his "Sammitch" turf.

Well...mine is more like a sub question.."sammitch" is more along the lines of wonderbread but..I will watch my lingo in requesting on how to melt provolone just right for the perfect 'senguich'

Sandwiches are played out btw. It's all about the panini these days

What is the difference between a sandwich and a pannini?...is that Italian for 'two pieces of bread, with piece of meat and and a slice of cheese'??

[marvelcollector]

If that still ruffles too many feathers (and I honestly can't see why it would amongst fair minded souls) than it should at least be available in the grader's notes.

 

One more possibility:

 

CGC could add a spot for submitters to voluntarily state that a book has been pressed, and in such cases add it to the label.

 

I can't imagine a member of NOD having a problem with that.

 

I think that would be a positive step. However, that has been asked of CGC by the NOD in past years and it was shot down.

 

...and it was shot down because it would create a false impression that unlabeled books would all be unpressed. Very simple.

 

 

If that is the reason given, it is a very lame one.

 

I can't believe the average (or even somewhat below average) collector is so unsophisticated as to assume that corollary.

[DarkKnightReturns]

I jst made a sandwich...but something is driving me NUTS. How do you toast the sub bread, heat the ham, aaaaand have the provolone cheese melted..if it all requires different temperatures..plus putting the the tomotoes and lettucce kept fresh before serving....it's going to be a daunting task..but, I am on a mission.. I WILL CREATE THE PERFECT SANDWICH>>>

 

You are risking legal action form Currin_Comics for infringing upon his "Sammitch" turf.

Well...mine is more like a sub question.."sammitch" is more along the lines of wonderbread but..I will watch my lingo in requesting on how to melt provolone just right for the perfect 'senguich'

Sandwiches are played out btw. It's all about the panini these days

What is the difference between a sandwich and a pannini?...is that Italian for 'two pieces of bread, with piece of meat and and a slice of cheese'??

The difference is a panini is toasted and will probably cost you about $3 more because it has a fancy name

[Chespirito]

OK..I am game...You've made an incredible arguement for the paninni..I want one, and I will also skip the 25 cent cup of coffe for a 6 dollar Frappuccino Late with Whip cream....

[DarkKnightReturns]

OK..I am game...You've made an incredible arguement for the paninni..I want one, and I will also skip the 25 cent cup of coffe for a 6 dollar Frappuccino Late with Whip cream....

You know who's coffee is actually really good. McDonalds. Yep. I love it. Can't stand Starbucks. Tim Hortons is great, but I was very surprised at how good Rotten Ronnies coffee was. They must sprinkle just a little crack in it or something.

[VintageComics]

If that still ruffles too many feathers (and I honestly can't see why it would amongst fair minded souls) than it should at least be available in the grader's notes.

 

One more possibility:

 

CGC could add a spot for submitters to voluntarily state that a book has been pressed, and in such cases add it to the label.

 

I can't imagine a member of NOD having a problem with that.

 

I think that would be a positive step. However, that has been asked of CGC by the NOD in past years and it was shot down.

 

...and it was shot down because it would create a false impression that unlabeled books would all be unpressed. Very simple.

 

 

If that is the reason given, it is a very lame one.

 

I can't believe the average (or even somewhat below average) collector is so unsophisticated as to assume that corollary.

 

Sorry, I speed typed. Let me clarify.

 

That argument of labeling books as pressed, whether on CGC labels or at auction houses has been presented on here many times and the conclusion that most people came to was that any form of labeling on CGC books that was not accurate because there would be a corollary effect. It automatically stigmatizes labeled and unlabeled books...which are inaccurately assessed anyway.

 

I didn't mean to sound as though that was CGC's official answer.

 

Sorry about that.

[sckao]

 

It's kind of a facetious question, but if you READ a pressed book, won't it exhibit signs of having been read? (Pages being turned, etc.)

 

When CGC does a page count, doesn't it turn each page to check that nothing is cut out and that all wraps are there?

 

Comics that have been in packs of 10 packed tightly into a long box generally no longer have that slight spine plump.

 

 

 

[Chespirito]

OK..I am game...You've made an incredible arguement for the paninni..I want one, and I will also skip the 25 cent cup of coffe for a 6 dollar Frappuccino Late with Whip cream....

You know who's coffee is actually really good. McDonalds. Yep. I love it. Can't stand Starbucks. Tim Hortons is great, but I was very surprised at how good Rotten Ronnies coffee was. They must sprinkle just a little crack in it or something.

Does it have French/Italian/Euro-like name, if not..I am not interested...I am a slave to Capitalist commercialism.

[DarkKnightReturns]

OK..I am game...You've made an incredible arguement for the paninni..I want one, and I will also skip the 25 cent cup of coffe for a 6 dollar Frappuccino Late with Whip cream....

You know who's coffee is actually really good. McDonalds. Yep. I love it. Can't stand Starbucks. Tim Hortons is great, but I was very surprised at how good Rotten Ronnies coffee was. They must sprinkle just a little crack in it or something.

Does it have French/Italian/Euro-like name, if not..I am not interested...I am a slave to Capitalist commercialism.

No

[marvelcollector]

If that still ruffles too many feathers (and I honestly can't see why it would amongst fair minded souls) than it should at least be available in the grader's notes.

 

One more possibility:

 

CGC could add a spot for submitters to voluntarily state that a book has been pressed, and in such cases add it to the label.

 

I can't imagine a member of NOD having a problem with that.

 

I think that would be a positive step. However, that has been asked of CGC by the NOD in past years and it was shot down.

 

...and it was shot down because it would create a false impression that unlabeled books would all be unpressed. Very simple.

 

 

If that is the reason given, it is a very lame one.

 

I can't believe the average (or even somewhat below average) collector is so unsophisticated as to assume that corollary.

 

Sorry, I speed typed. Let me clarify.

 

That argument of labeling books as pressed, whether on CGC labels or at auction houses has been presented on here many times and the conclusion that most people came to was that any form of labeling on CGC books that was not accurate because there would be a corollary effect. It automatically stigmatizes labeled and unlabeled books...which are inaccurately assessed anyway.

 

I didn't mean to sound as though that was CGC's official answer.

 

Sorry about that.

 

I see.

 

Still, I believe that most collectors are smart enough to know - or understand - that the lack of a "pressed" statement does not necessarily mean the book is not pressed.

 

Just as when one sees a car pulled over by a state trooper, one does not assume all other cars on the road are not speeding.

 

 

[Zonker]

OK..I am game...You've made an incredible arguement for the paninni..I want one, and I will also skip the 25 cent cup of coffe for a 6 dollar Frappuccino Late with Whip cream....

You know who's coffee is actually really good. McDonalds. Yep. I love it. Can't stand Starbucks. Tim Hortons is great, but I was very surprised at how good Rotten Ronnies coffee was. They must sprinkle just a little crack in it or something.

Does it have French/Italian/Euro-like name, if not..I am not interested...I am a slave to Capitalist commercialism.

No

 

"McCafe " is French, right?

[alecholland]

 

The NOD was never intended to be a watchdog or policing organization except of it's own members.

 

And I never said why even try. The best avenue to counter undisclosed enhancements is to disclose yourself and set the example for the hobby. That is about the extent of what can be done. If undetectable, which it currently is, there is ZERO chance that anything will change.

 

OK.

 

Well, I guess I don't understand the purpose of having an organization whose mission statement is:

 

The Network of Disclosure is a group of comic book dealers and collectors, who have pledged to disclose any form of restoration or enhancement, known to exist, on a comic book whose ownership is to be transferred to another party through sale, trade or gift. Our objective is to create a safer and more open environment for those buying and selling comic books. By publicly sharing this type of history of each of these books with our fellow collectors and customers, we seek to foster both a greater level of confidence and sense of security within the marketplace.

 

but doesn't actively attempt to get all dealers and collectors to adhere to the same ideals.

 

I guess that's where I'm getting confused. Being a member of NOD seems like just a marketing tool at that point and not an organization that is interested in proactively promoting the same values they espouse, to the rest of the hobby.

 

Why would I want to be a member if you don't actually stand for something other than being able to put your logo on my Ebay auctions?

 

Alec, they are trying to get all dealers and collectors to adhere to the same ideals, but there is no better way to do it than to walk by example.

 

You can't force them to. This isn't an inquisition where people have to convert or die.

 

They are not responsible for those that do not share the ideal, which is what you are making it sound like.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

Brent said, "The best avenue to counter undisclosed enhancements is to disclose yourself and set the example for the hobby. That is about the extent of what can be done."

 

I agree with the first part of his statement, mostly. Although, especially in Brent's case, if you are the chairman of the board of an organization that promotes disclosing restoration and enhancements, the best avenue to counter undisclosed enhancements would be to not add to the pool of books that could be sold with potentially undisclosed enhancements in the first place. Doesn't that make sense?

 

I also think that the argument, "they are not responsible for those that do not share the ideal" is a very poor at best, especially in this instance. Indeed, they are not directly responsible for what the next person does with a pressed book, but if the book isn't pressed in the first place, there wouldn't be the opportunity for undisclosed "enhancements" to begin with.

 

The second part of Brent's statement is what I don't understand - "That is about the extent of what can be done." It sounds apathetic. It's just not what I would expect from the leader of an organization supposedly formed to promote disclosure of any form of restoration or enhancement, known to exist, on a comic book.

 

This isn't an inquisition where people have to convert or die.

 

I never suggested it was. Now you are trying to put words in my mouth. Convert or die, really dude.

 

I'm not trying to bash on Brent here or anything, nor anyone for that matter. I'm just confused by some of the statements I'm reading in this thread.

 

 

[VintageComics]

If that still ruffles too many feathers (and I honestly can't see why it would amongst fair minded souls) than it should at least be available in the grader's notes.

 

One more possibility:

 

CGC could add a spot for submitters to voluntarily state that a book has been pressed, and in such cases add it to the label.

 

I can't imagine a member of NOD having a problem with that.

 

I think that would be a positive step. However, that has been asked of CGC by the NOD in past years and it was shot down.

 

...and it was shot down because it would create a false impression that unlabeled books would all be unpressed. Very simple.

 

 

If that is the reason given, it is a very lame one.

 

I can't believe the average (or even somewhat below average) collector is so unsophisticated as to assume that corollary.

 

Sorry, I speed typed. Let me clarify.

 

That argument of labeling books as pressed, whether on CGC labels or at auction houses has been presented on here many times and the conclusion that most people came to was that any form of labeling on CGC books that was not accurate because there would be a corollary effect. It automatically stigmatizes labeled and unlabeled books...which are inaccurately assessed anyway.

 

I didn't mean to sound as though that was CGC's official answer.

 

Sorry about that.

 

I see.

 

Still, I believe that most collectors are smart enough to know - or understand - that the lack of a "pressed" statement does not necessarily mean the book is not pressed.

 

Just as when one sees a car pulled over by a state trooper, one does not assume all other cars on the road are not speeding.

 

 

You'd like to think so, but that isn't the case.

 

There are two parts to this reply.

 

1) The detection of pressed books

 

Keep in mind that pressing for the most part is a volatile discussion because of the money involved. There are other reasons but money seems to be a central focus.

 

I think that we can agree that nobody really cares all that much if a low dollar reader 1.8 book is pressed and gets a 1.8 grade again. I don't think the owner of a 1.8 book cares much if his 1.8 book was pressed or pressed to a 2.0, do they?

 

I think the discussion of pressing is generally focused around higher grade, higher dollar books.

 

If that is a fair comment, then we need to understand and agree these books make much better candidates for pressing and make them even less detectable because there are less and smaller flaws, therefore less clues and therefore less ability to actually tell whether they are pressed or not.

 

What does this mean? That detection of pressing on books that matter the most to people will be the most innaccurate.

 

2) the idea of a label change

 

Every time a discussion about label change, or label color change or some sort of potential change comes about it seems that people start to jump and yell from the roof tops that any sort of change will just confuse buyers and make it an unfair playing field.

 

Now we have people asking for a notation on the label, and the notation would not even be accurate (I'm sticking with my 50/50 odds at best until someone can prove otherwise).

 

This would be much the same as previous discussions where label changes were discussed...except that you are taking one variable (and a very large variable IMO as only a small minority of books can be accurately detected as being pressed) and creating another secondary variable by labeling them as pressed and giving the impression that the rest are unpressed.

 

So not only would you be labeling only a minority of the books that get caught, the most important ones are more likely to get missed by those looking for clues that reveal that a book has been pressed.

 

It would just not be good business no matter how you try to slice it.

 

That's my

 

[seanfingh]

 

Since no one will call a spade a spade, here it is for the cheap seats:

 

CGC WILL NEVER INSTITUTE A POLICY THAT IS GOING TO CAUSE LESS SUBMISSIONS. CPR MEANS THAT CGC GETS TO CHARGE THEIR FEES FOR THE SAME BOOK, POTENTIALLY MULTIPLE TIMES. THEY WILL NEVER CHANGE ANYTHING AS IT RESULTS TO PRESSING. PRESSING MEANS MORE SUBS.

[delekkerste]

If Phil Mickelson uses these manipulated clubs and shoots 12 under par, is that as impressive as Rocco Mediate shooting 12 under par using un-manipulated clubs? (Is a pressed 9.6 as impressive as a naturally well-preserved 9.6?)

 

If Phil Mickelson shoots an all-time low score using these clubs, should that record not be questioned? (If a book reaches the top of the Census through pressing, is it really that impressive?)

 

If Phil Mickelson wins a tournament using these clubs, but no one can detect it, does that somehow make everything all right? (Is it OK to press books just because lack of 100% reliable detection has prevented CGC or anyone else from noting it?)

 

Is Phil Mickelson enhancing the sport of golf by his "cheating within the rules"? (Does pressing make the comic book hobby and marketplace better?)

 

Or, is Phil Mickelson simply cheating?

 

Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:56 am EST

 

Tour players accuse Phil Mickelson of 'cheating' with old clubs

 

By Jay Busbee

San Francisco Chronicle

 

The PGA Tour season's not even a month old, and we've already got our first major controversy. And Phil Mickelson has played exactly 18 holes, and he's smack-dab in the middle of it.

 

At issue are new club groove rules that went into effect on Jan. 1. Long story short: golfers were using specially-cut grooves on their clubs to spin the ball more sharply and play more effectively out of the rough; the penalty for putting a shot into the rough was thus minimized. So the USGA and the Royal & Ancient, two of golf's major governing bodies, decreed that such grooves were illegal and could not be used on Tour starting this year. (For more detail, check our handy guide to the new rules right here.)

 

However, golfers are expert at wiggling their way out of tough situations, and they discovered that a lawsuit Ping filed against the PGA Tour and the USGA way back in 1993 exempted wedges made before 1990 from the new rules. (Don't try to figure it out, just accept it.) Lo and behold, what should turn up in the bags of golfers like John Daly and Phil Mickelson but some vintage Ping Eye 2 wedges, clubs that are old enough to legally drink.

 

The golfers' decision to squeeze through the loophole hasn't sat well with many of their peers. "It's cheating, and I'm appalled Phil has put [the grandfathered club] into play," Scott McCarron, a three-time Tour winner, told the San Francisco Chronicle."All those guys should be ashamed of themselves for doing that ... As one of our premier players, (Mickelson) should be one of the guys who steps up and says this is wrong."

 

"I don't like it at all, not one bit," added Rocco Mediate. "It's against the spirit of the rule." (thumbs u

 

Mickelson conceded at a Wednesday press conference that while he knew the Eye 2 clubs didn't conform to the new rules, they nonetheless were legal, and that was good enough for him: "All that matters is it's OK under the rules of golf."

 

Ah, there it is: the "rules of golf." To a great extent, the USGA has no one to blame but itself for this situation. If the USGA allowed the Pings in, it can't then turn around and arbitrarily say they're not legal. Golf is defined by its rules, and selective enforcement here is no more justifiable than, say, taking a free drop when your ball doesn't end up exactly where you'd like it.

 

But ... golf is also a sport of self-policed rules. You call your own fouls. And from that standpoint, it makes sense that other players would expect Phil to step up and say that the spirit of the law ought to take precedence over the letter of the law. If he were to publicly distance himself from the clubs, plenty of other pros would, too.

 

Regardless, this is an early reminder of how it's going to be for Phil. In the absence of Tiger Woods, with the expectation that Phil will take over the No. 1 slot, every move he makes will be scrutinized, dissected and criticized. And if he wins, it'll only get that much worse.