Pedigree Auction Sales and Relistings. Legit?

[MrBedrock]

From what I'm hearing here, cooking the books is cool with people?

Nope - Doug shouldn't be toying with the process. He agreed not to when he signed up for it.

I'm just pointing out that no matter how tightly controlled the situation, some numbers are going to be skewed. It is inevitable.

 

I bring up the Superman 4 and 6 as an example.

If those sales did occur they are so totally out of whack with reality that they don't make sense. But they must be reported. So they skew the numbers.

If they didn't actually get paid for then the sales that are reported are incorrect and they skew the numbers.

Either way we are all skewed.

[Foolkiller]

Hi folks,

 

well, I've been slow to post here because I actually wanted to speak with Doug first, which I was able to do about half an hour ago.

 

So, exactly what he has said earlier, a couple of consigners have pressured him into not reporting a few sales - not good, and I'm certainly not happy about that. He and I had a frank conversation about it and Doug has committed to sending the data and talking to the consigners about reporting their future consigned sales. I do see where he was coming from, but also drove the point home with respects to reporting ALL sales data, and, explaining to the consigners (whom he acknowledges may leave his site) that this is the way to go. He agrees.

 

Furthermore, he has also agreed to something we have been looking to introduce into our system for a while now, direct links back to individual sales on his site and marking his sales as such on GPA. Most other reporting partners have also shown interest in the past on this, so as long there are no technical difficulties (which there shouldn't be) this should be something we can introduce relatively quickly.

 

A few of the dealers I met with in San Diego when we first introduced our service showed interest in sending us sales (prior to us accepting non-auction data). I remember at the time (and Steve B was in agreement during that chat) that my reluctance was due mainly to do with verifying the data and the completeness of the results. And here we are.

 

I personally believe Doug is already taking steps to change the way he is reporting to us and bring the consigners who have pressured him on board. I might just add that Doug (as well as Brent) is one of the few smaller dealers who has gone to great lengths to accommodate the data feeds to us.

 

And as someone far more intelligent than myself stated earlier, Joseph (ComicWiz) has explained exactly what would need to happen to verify and guarantee compliance by every player - nothing short of one unified exchange. Yep, not gonna happen.

 

At the end of the day we can continue to provide further and further information (and as much as is possible without hindering the service) to give collector's more data than they would normally have been privy to, or have had the capability and time to collect on their own. I believe enough data points exist in most books/grades to see the trends, even if individual transactions can vary from time to time.

 

So, I'm here and ready to accept any questions you have specifically of me and my service.

 

George

 

Thanks George.

[Flaming_Telepath]

Good work, George.

[sborock]

How do I even know this is the real Steve Borock?

 

Could be some Heritage Shill speaking for him.

 

Tell me something I would only know.

 

Our kids were jumping on bed at your Halloween party years ago

[buttock]

If the number of books selling for low amounts is so miniscule and meaningless...then why does Josh insist they not be included before he'll report his data? And if C-Link refuses to report their data unless they can only include the data that skews the numbers high...then to hell with their data.

 

I honestly can't believe I'm sitting here watching people try to defend this blantant market manipulation tactic.

I'm not trying to defend any market manipulation. And if you are going to insinuate that my stance is defenseless then I will insinuate that your stidency is small-minded.

 

To believe that there is anyway to keep the data "unskewed" is naive. Obviously we are talking about skewed data right now with the small pool of hand-picked contributors that George has chosen. He, you, and anyone else here who believes that less data is purer, less manipulated, and therefore better really needs to step back and think. By having less data you end up with something that doesn't represent the hobby at all. It becomes just as useless by omission.

 

The only way to have the data approach an unmanipulated state is have so much of it that the bad sales are drowned out and buried by the shear numbers of sales reported.

If all sales had the ability to be reported, then even if some low sales weren't reported, they wouldn't affect the average nearly as much as they do now.

I'm going to have to assume you meant "stridency"...as I don't know what "stidency" is. As for the rest of your passive-aggressive jabs...I'll just ignore them.

 

No one is talking about being able to collect data that is totally perfect and unskewed in any manner. But, yes...I do believe that less data can be purer, less manipulated, and more useful. To suggest that this couldn't be the case is naive as well. What good does it do if you allow more data in if it's ok to openly skew it all to the high side? All that does is open the door for even more manipulation on a massive scale.

I did mean stridency - thanks for the spell-check (thumbs u

And there was nothing passive about my response. It was purely aggressive.

I am aggressively of the opinion that GPA, while useful in its current state, is just as full of manipulated data.

eBay - how much of those sales numbers are the result of shill bids, something we discuss on a daily basis around here.

Heritage - take a look at the Superman 4 and 6 sales which skewed those numbers way high. And we aren't even sure if those sales ever actually took place.

There have been other discussions here about individual dealers (GPA contributors) who selectively reported sales and purchases as it fit their needs.

 

So the present data set already is skewed.

You seem to worry that only high side sales will be reported. Well since a huge percentage of the present sales reported are a result of auction settings it seems to me that ONLY high side sales are now being reported. I would suggest that if individuals around here who sell had the ability to report we would more than likely see a reduction in sales averages as most folks who sell here price stuff at or below GPA to begin with.

So if we open the door for collectors to report verifiable sales we would have access to low-side as well as high-side sales.

 

Again, the large addition of data will balance itself out and we would all have a truer picture of the marketplace.

 

 

If it's any consolation, I didn't think there was any passivity either. Domo needs to find a better pop-psychology book.

Thanks for the recommendation, butthead. I'll try to find a better one.

 

Or you could just ask all the family and friends you've alienated with your charming personality why they can't stand you. That should be a pretty comprehensive list of passive-aggressive behavior.

[blazingbob]

Ok, it's really you.

[Domo Arigato]

If the number of books selling for low amounts is so miniscule and meaningless...then why does Josh insist they not be included before he'll report his data? And if C-Link refuses to report their data unless they can only include the data that skews the numbers high...then to hell with their data.

 

I honestly can't believe I'm sitting here watching people try to defend this blantant market manipulation tactic.

I'm not trying to defend any market manipulation. And if you are going to insinuate that my stance is defenseless then I will insinuate that your stidency is small-minded.

 

To believe that there is anyway to keep the data "unskewed" is naive. Obviously we are talking about skewed data right now with the small pool of hand-picked contributors that George has chosen. He, you, and anyone else here who believes that less data is purer, less manipulated, and therefore better really needs to step back and think. By having less data you end up with something that doesn't represent the hobby at all. It becomes just as useless by omission.

 

The only way to have the data approach an unmanipulated state is have so much of it that the bad sales are drowned out and buried by the shear numbers of sales reported.

If all sales had the ability to be reported, then even if some low sales weren't reported, they wouldn't affect the average nearly as much as they do now.

I'm going to have to assume you meant "stridency"...as I don't know what "stidency" is. As for the rest of your passive-aggressive jabs...I'll just ignore them.

 

No one is talking about being able to collect data that is totally perfect and unskewed in any manner. But, yes...I do believe that less data can be purer, less manipulated, and more useful. To suggest that this couldn't be the case is naive as well. What good does it do if you allow more data in if it's ok to openly skew it all to the high side? All that does is open the door for even more manipulation on a massive scale.

I did mean stridency - thanks for the spell-check (thumbs u

And there was nothing passive about my response. It was purely aggressive.

I am aggressively of the opinion that GPA, while useful in its current state, is just as full of manipulated data.

eBay - how much of those sales numbers are the result of shill bids, something we discuss on a daily basis around here.

Heritage - take a look at the Superman 4 and 6 sales which skewed those numbers way high. And we aren't even sure if those sales ever actually took place.

There have been other discussions here about individual dealers (GPA contributors) who selectively reported sales and purchases as it fit their needs.

 

So the present data set already is skewed.

You seem to worry that only high side sales will be reported. Well since a huge percentage of the present sales reported are a result of auction settings it seems to me that ONLY high side sales are now being reported. I would suggest that if individuals around here who sell had the ability to report we would more than likely see a reduction in sales averages as most folks who sell here price stuff at or below GPA to begin with.

So if we open the door for collectors to report verifiable sales we would have access to low-side as well as high-side sales.

 

Again, the large addition of data will balance itself out and we would all have a truer picture of the marketplace.

 

 

If it's any consolation, I didn't think there was any passivity either. Domo needs to find a better pop-psychology book.

Thanks for the recommendation, butthead. I'll try to find a better one.

 

Or you could just ask all the family and friends you've alienated with your charming personality why they can't stand you. That should be a pretty comprehensive list of passive-aggressive behavior.

BUTTOCK.......BUTTOCK.......I meant to say BUTTOCK!!! Sorry about that, Butthead.

[8milemax]

If the number of books selling for low amounts is so miniscule and meaningless...then why does Josh insist they not be included before he'll report his data? And if C-Link refuses to report their data unless they can only include the data that skews the numbers high...then to hell with their data.

 

I honestly can't believe I'm sitting here watching people try to defend this blantant market manipulation tactic.

I'm not trying to defend any market manipulation. And if you are going to insinuate that my stance is defenseless then I will insinuate that your stidency is small-minded.

 

To believe that there is anyway to keep the data "unskewed" is naive. Obviously we are talking about skewed data right now with the small pool of hand-picked contributors that George has chosen. He, you, and anyone else here who believes that less data is purer, less manipulated, and therefore better really needs to step back and think. By having less data you end up with something that doesn't represent the hobby at all. It becomes just as useless by omission.

 

The only way to have the data approach an unmanipulated state is have so much of it that the bad sales are drowned out and buried by the shear numbers of sales reported.

If all sales had the ability to be reported, then even if some low sales weren't reported, they wouldn't affect the average nearly as much as they do now.

I'm going to have to assume you meant "stridency"...as I don't know what "stidency" is. As for the rest of your passive-aggressive jabs...I'll just ignore them.

 

No one is talking about being able to collect data that is totally perfect and unskewed in any manner. But, yes...I do believe that less data can be purer, less manipulated, and more useful. To suggest that this couldn't be the case is naive as well. What good does it do if you allow more data in if it's ok to openly skew it all to the high side? All that does is open the door for even more manipulation on a massive scale.

I did mean stridency - thanks for the spell-check (thumbs u

And there was nothing passive about my response. It was purely aggressive.

I am aggressively of the opinion that GPA, while useful in its current state, is just as full of manipulated data.

eBay - how much of those sales numbers are the result of shill bids, something we discuss on a daily basis around here.

Heritage - take a look at the Superman 4 and 6 sales which skewed those numbers way high. And we aren't even sure if those sales ever actually took place.

There have been other discussions here about individual dealers (GPA contributors) who selectively reported sales and purchases as it fit their needs.

 

So the present data set already is skewed.

You seem to worry that only high side sales will be reported. Well since a huge percentage of the present sales reported are a result of auction settings it seems to me that ONLY high side sales are now being reported. I would suggest that if individuals around here who sell had the ability to report we would more than likely see a reduction in sales averages as most folks who sell here price stuff at or below GPA to begin with.

So if we open the door for collectors to report verifiable sales we would have access to low-side as well as high-side sales.

 

Again, the large addition of data will balance itself out and we would all have a truer picture of the marketplace.

 

 

If it's any consolation, I didn't think there was any passivity either. Domo needs to find a better pop-psychology book.

Thanks for the recommendation, butthead. I'll try to find a better one.

 

Or you could just ask all the family and friends you've alienated with your charming personality why they can't stand you. That should be a pretty comprehensive list of passive-aggressive behavior.

BUTTOCK.......BUTTOCK.......I meant to say BUTTOCK!!! Sorry about that, Butthead.

 

Wow Domo such childish antics

[DrWatson]

BUTTOCK.......BUTTOCK.......I meant to say BUTTOCK!!! Sorry about that, Butthead.

Honest to God I believe you are a reincarnation of a previous poster. It's just so hard to imagine there would be two of you.

[DrWatson]

I really appreciate the time & effort involved and the willingness to post the outcome, George. Thanks again. (thumbs u

[Drummy]

Hey all --

 

I have little to add, except that I have no vested interest in the topic anymore since I've stopped collecting CGC books thanks to stuff like...the topic at hand.

 

Here's my take:

 

1. Enough auctions are rigged -- shilled, manipulated, what have you -- to make them all suspect. If you're bidding in an auction, take everything with a huge grain of salt and just bid the amount you're comfortable with. If you "lose", at least you can comfort yourself with the idea that you may not have lost to a warm body. This goes for ANY auction house, because even if the house is on the up-and-up the consigner may have friends shilling it. Whatever helps the seller.

 

2. GPA and George are really trying to help the hobby. I agree that some of its data is already skewed, but that's no reason to punt on calling out poor dealer practices. Dealers want GPA to go up, up, up, for obvious reasons...at least these boards can remind them of what the heck a "moral standard" might look like when you run a business.

 

3. I am learning to despise the ostrich clan that encourages board members to "just be happy" and "emphasize the joy of collecting" when a vast majority of the supply of nice books -- major website dealers and auction houses -- seem to have no concept of fairness, truth, or responsibility. I DO love comics and comic art, but watching the "professionals" trying to "manipulate the market" is, to paraphrase 'Dodgeball', like watching a bunch of retreads humping a doorknob. Pathetic, obvious, arrogant, and reprehensible. Just post books, name a price, be willing to haggle a little, and report true sales to GPA, fer God's sake!

 

Still a Bob Storms fan, by the way, after all these years.

 

Dan

 

 

[8milemax]

I really appreciate the time & effort involved and the willingness to post the outcome, George. Thanks again. (thumbs u

 

+1

[Park]

 

If it's any consolation, I didn't think there was any passivity either. Domo needs to find a better pop-psychology book.

Thanks for the recommendation, butthead. I'll try to find a better one.

 

Or you could just ask all the family and friends you've alienated with your charming personality why they can't stand you. That should be a pretty comprehensive list of passive-aggressive behavior.

 

I have nothing to add other than I actually hurt myself laughing at this post.

 

 

[Flaming_Telepath]

Hey all --

 

I have little to add, except that I have no vested interest in the topic anymore since I've stopped collecting CGC books thanks to stuff like...the topic at hand.

 

Here's my take:

 

1. Enough auctions are rigged -- shilled, manipulated, what have you -- to make them all suspect. If you're bidding in an auction, take everything with a huge grain of salt and just bid the amount you're comfortable with. If you "lose", at least you can comfort yourself with the idea that you may not have lost to a warm body. This goes for ANY auction house, because even if the house is on the up-and-up the consigner may have friends shilling it. Whatever helps the seller.

 

2. GPA and George are really trying to help the hobby. I agree that some of its data is already skewed, but that's no reason to punt on calling out poor dealer practices. Dealers want GPA to go up, up, up, for obvious reasons...at least these boards can remind them of what the heck a "moral standard" might look like when you run a business.

 

3. I am learning to despise the ostrich clan that encourages board members to "just be happy" and "emphasize the joy of collecting" when a vast majority of the supply of nice books -- major website dealers and auction houses -- seem to have no concept of fairness, truth, or responsibility. I DO love comics and comic art, but watching the "professionals" trying to "manipulate the market" is, to paraphrase 'Dodgeball', like watching a bunch of retreads humping a doorknob. Pathetic, obvious, arrogant, and reprehensible. Just post books, name a price, be willing to haggle a little, and report true sales to GPA, fer God's sake!

 

Still a Bob Storms fan, by the way, after all these years.

 

Dan

 

 

[Domo Arigato]

If the number of books selling for low amounts is so miniscule and meaningless...then why does Josh insist they not be included before he'll report his data? And if C-Link refuses to report their data unless they can only include the data that skews the numbers high...then to hell with their data.

 

I honestly can't believe I'm sitting here watching people try to defend this blantant market manipulation tactic.

I'm not trying to defend any market manipulation. And if you are going to insinuate that my stance is defenseless then I will insinuate that your stidency is small-minded.

 

To believe that there is anyway to keep the data "unskewed" is naive. Obviously we are talking about skewed data right now with the small pool of hand-picked contributors that George has chosen. He, you, and anyone else here who believes that less data is purer, less manipulated, and therefore better really needs to step back and think. By having less data you end up with something that doesn't represent the hobby at all. It becomes just as useless by omission.

 

The only way to have the data approach an unmanipulated state is have so much of it that the bad sales are drowned out and buried by the shear numbers of sales reported.

If all sales had the ability to be reported, then even if some low sales weren't reported, they wouldn't affect the average nearly as much as they do now.

I'm going to have to assume you meant "stridency"...as I don't know what "stidency" is. As for the rest of your passive-aggressive jabs...I'll just ignore them.

 

No one is talking about being able to collect data that is totally perfect and unskewed in any manner. But, yes...I do believe that less data can be purer, less manipulated, and more useful. To suggest that this couldn't be the case is naive as well. What good does it do if you allow more data in if it's ok to openly skew it all to the high side? All that does is open the door for even more manipulation on a massive scale.

I did mean stridency - thanks for the spell-check (thumbs u

And there was nothing passive about my response. It was purely aggressive.

I am aggressively of the opinion that GPA, while useful in its current state, is just as full of manipulated data.

eBay - how much of those sales numbers are the result of shill bids, something we discuss on a daily basis around here.

Heritage - take a look at the Superman 4 and 6 sales which skewed those numbers way high. And we aren't even sure if those sales ever actually took place.

There have been other discussions here about individual dealers (GPA contributors) who selectively reported sales and purchases as it fit their needs.

 

So the present data set already is skewed.

You seem to worry that only high side sales will be reported. Well since a huge percentage of the present sales reported are a result of auction settings it seems to me that ONLY high side sales are now being reported. I would suggest that if individuals around here who sell had the ability to report we would more than likely see a reduction in sales averages as most folks who sell here price stuff at or below GPA to begin with.

So if we open the door for collectors to report verifiable sales we would have access to low-side as well as high-side sales.

 

Again, the large addition of data will balance itself out and we would all have a truer picture of the marketplace.

 

 

If it's any consolation, I didn't think there was any passivity either. Domo needs to find a better pop-psychology book.

Thanks for the recommendation, butthead. I'll try to find a better one.

 

Or you could just ask all the family and friends you've alienated with your charming personality why they can't stand you. That should be a pretty comprehensive list of passive-aggressive behavior.

BUTTOCK.......BUTTOCK.......I meant to say BUTTOCK!!! Sorry about that, Butthead.

 

Wow Domo such childish antics

I thanked him for his kind recommendation and then apologized for the slip of the tongue. What more do you want from me, comicsupply?

[comicwiz]

Ok, it's really you, Bugaboo.

 

Fixed that to follow Doc's reincarnation hypothesis (thumbs u

[Davenport]

Hey all --

 

I have little to add, except that I have no vested interest in the topic anymore since I've stopped collecting CGC books thanks to stuff like...the topic at hand.

 

Here's my take:

 

1. Enough auctions are rigged -- shilled, manipulated, what have you -- to make them all suspect. If you're bidding in an auction, take everything with a huge grain of salt and just bid the amount you're comfortable with. If you "lose", at least you can comfort yourself with the idea that you may not have lost to a warm body. This goes for ANY auction house, because even if the house is on the up-and-up the consigner may have friends shilling it. Whatever helps the seller.

 

2. GPA and George are really trying to help the hobby. I agree that some of its data is already skewed, but that's no reason to punt on calling out poor dealer practices. Dealers want GPA to go up, up, up, for obvious reasons...at least these boards can remind them of what the heck a "moral standard" might look like when you run a business.

 

3. I am learning to despise the ostrich clan that encourages board members to "just be happy" and "emphasize the joy of collecting" when a vast majority of the supply of nice books -- major website dealers and auction houses -- seem to have no concept of fairness, truth, or responsibility. I DO love comics and comic art, but watching the "professionals" trying to "manipulate the market" is, to paraphrase 'Dodgeball', like watching a bunch of retreads humping a doorknob. Pathetic, obvious, arrogant, and reprehensible. Just post books, name a price, be willing to haggle a little, and report true sales to GPA, fer God's sake!

 

Still a Bob Storms fan, by the way, after all these years.

 

Dan

 

[trmoore54]

Hey all --

 

I have little to add, except that I have no vested interest in the topic anymore since I've stopped collecting CGC books thanks to stuff like...the topic at hand.

 

Here's my take:

 

1. Enough auctions are rigged -- shilled, manipulated, what have you -- to make them all suspect. If you're bidding in an auction, take everything with a huge grain of salt and just bid the amount you're comfortable with. If you "lose", at least you can comfort yourself with the idea that you may not have lost to a warm body. This goes for ANY auction house, because even if the house is on the up-and-up the consigner may have friends shilling it. Whatever helps the seller.

 

2. GPA and George are really trying to help the hobby. I agree that some of its data is already skewed, but that's no reason to punt on calling out poor dealer practices. Dealers want GPA to go up, up, up, for obvious reasons...at least these boards can remind them of what the heck a "moral standard" might look like when you run a business.

 

3. I am learning to despise the ostrich clan that encourages board members to "just be happy" and "emphasize the joy of collecting" when a vast majority of the supply of nice books -- major website dealers and auction houses -- seem to have no concept of fairness, truth, or responsibility. I DO love comics and comic art, but watching the "professionals" trying to "manipulate the market" is, to paraphrase 'Dodgeball', like watching a bunch of retreads humping a doorknob. Pathetic, obvious, arrogant, and reprehensible. Just post books, name a price, be willing to haggle a little, and report true sales to GPA, fer God's sake!

 

Still a Bob Storms fan, by the way, after all these years.

 

Dan

 

 

Good post!

[DiceX]

So, I'm here and ready to accept any questions you have specifically of me and my service.

 

Is it true that you have your back waxed once a month?

If so, do you use a scented wax?

 

 

[marvelcollector]

Ok, it's really you.

 

Whoa, not so fast.

 

Somebody could be holding a gun to his head....