New Trend at Comic Conventions???

[the blob]

I think that seeing the proliferation of high end items for sale on auctions might be misleading, since they tend to keep a lot of sales on the site after the transaction.

 

I guess I get the impression that much of the bronze UHG (including pressed) with 5k+ price tags, is much more prevalent than one would expect.

 

Again, nothing morally wrong with this. I just threw it in to the conversation, as I heard some commenting that the margins were razor thin and dealers can barely survive let alone be rolling in profits (and I do know a few good ones that went belly up; they never seized on the UHG slab craze and only priced at 1X, only recently changing to 1.5Xish for 9.6+).

 

Count up the sales of those $5K UHG BA books or even $1K ones. Heck, go into SA and GA too. I don't think there are as many as you think. then think how many dealers are out there.

 

Profits on new stuff, purchased wholesale, are razor thin after you factor in overhead as well as the cost of the item, discounts for file customers, and the leftovers that go into the discount box and eventually become 50 cent books after various levels of trashing. each of those 50 cent books cost the store owner $1.50 or $1.65 or something like that. As has been repeated over and over again here by store owners (including bedrock, who has had a fair amount of success), back issues are only like 5-15% of sales for these sorts of retail operations.

 

Not to mention, what do you consider making a lot of dough? If Harley Yee is clearing $150K a year for all of that hustle after expenses is he profiterring off the blood sweat and tears of collectors out there? in the big picture, $150K is not a lot of money, though you can live pretty well on it in michigan. where I live you are barely licing a middle class lifestyle on $150K, so I wonder if Vinnie Z at Metropolis is even living all that well as I have to figure someone running a big operation like that in NYC is pulling in at least that much (or am I delusional?), maybe over $200K.

 

I know my friend who owned a shop in NYC estimated he was making about $200,000 a year during the height of the sportscard boom in the 80's (and when comics were a good business too). let's just say he was not a great accountant and had a girlfriend with expensive tastes who helped him blow through that money. it didn't last long and by the time the comic speculation of 1990-1993 took place the card market dried up, so he was probably doing less, but happy with things (at least through 1992...not 1993 when he got stuck with a lot of excess inventory). when he closed up shop in 1999/2000 he was making about $20K at the shop, not enough to help support his 2 kids, so he just went and got a job making $15 an hour and that was that after 20 years of running and owning shops. i think things are a little better now for comics than 2000, sure, but he had a decent enough business and location that during the good times he made some good money, but the whole dynamics of both the comics and sportscard business changed. people started to understand that quanity really impacts collectibility and value and the days of opening up a 35 or 50 cent package of Topps and pulling out $10 "worth" of cards was long over, ditto with buying 2,500 Spawn 1s wholesale at $1 each and blowing them out for $5-$10 a pop (well, the zeppelin exploded with all the other #1s that came out later that were unsellable). just too much product.

[the blob]

Something like 80% of the comic shops have gone under in the last 10-15 years and it's not like these are boom times now. If it was so easy to wait for all those high end high grade books to walk in the door and pay 10% of FMV for them, a lot fewer of these guys would have gone under. It isn't all because they are the Simpsons "Comic Guy" and emit foul odors and have no social skills and scare away customers.

 

I agree that quite a few are now gone but I do ask, how is it that the few today are still open?

Is it only because of entering into other collecting areas like figurines and cards, or do the bigger ones sell more comics online now and use the shop as a write off?

 

Well, my guess is that print-runs have probably dropped about 80% since 1995/96, so it makes sense that there would be 80% fewer comic shops. Most shops sell a variety of items to survive, whatever the hot new "majik" type thing is, many also double as sports cards shops (which I think is a little bit easier market to guage), sell statutes, toys, t-shirts, whatever. Seriously, I think we're down to 15 or fewer active comic shops in Manhattan (population 1.8 million with a mid-day population of, I dunno, 7-10 million?), I guess at that level of competition they can survive with the diminished readership base and do enough volume that their razor thin margins are a little less razor thin. plus a lot of them bring in some extra dough online/ebay. i don't think they're keeping their brick and mortars around for writeoffs, otherwise they would just go mailorder/online.

 

 

[the blob]

I should note that actually most of the comic shops I see in NYC are just comics and related stuff shops, though in the suburbs I tend to see a lot more comic/card combo shops.

[bronze_rules]

I think that seeing the proliferation of high end items for sale on auctions might be misleading, since they tend to keep a lot of sales on the site after the transaction.

 

I guess I get the impression that much of the bronze UHG (including pressed) with 5k+ price tags, is much more prevalent than one would expect.

 

Again, nothing morally wrong with this. I just threw it in to the conversation, as I heard some commenting that the margins were razor thin and dealers can barely survive let alone be rolling in profits (and I do know a few good ones that went belly up; they never seized on the UHG slab craze and only priced at 1X, only recently changing to 1.5Xish for 9.6+).

 

Count up the sales of those $5K UHG BA books or even $1K ones. Heck, go into SA and GA too. I don't think there are as many as you think. then think how many dealers are out there.

 

Profits on new stuff, purchased wholesale, are razor thin after you factor in overhead as well as the cost of the item, discounts for file customers, and the leftovers that go into the discount box and eventually become 50 cent books after various levels of trashing. each of those 50 cent books cost the store owner $1.50 or $1.65 or something like that. As has been repeated over and over again here by store owners (including bedrock, who has had a fair amount of success), back issues are only like 5-15% of sales for these sorts of retail operations.

 

Not to mention, what do you consider making a lot of dough? If Harley Yee is clearing $150K a year for all of that hustle after expenses is he profiterring off the blood sweat and tears of collectors out there? in the big picture, $150K is not a lot of money, though you can live pretty well on it in michigan. where I live you are barely licing a middle class lifestyle on $150K, so I wonder if Vinnie Z at Metropolis is even living all that well as I have to figure someone running a big operation like that in NYC is pulling in at least that much (or am I delusional?), maybe over $200K.

 

I know my friend who owned a shop in NYC estimated he was making about $200,000 a year during the height of the sportscard boom in the 80's (and when comics were a good business too). let's just say he was not a great accountant and had a girlfriend with expensive tastes who helped him blow through that money. it didn't last long and by the time the comic speculation of 1990-1993 took place the card market dried up, so he was probably doing less, but happy with things (at least through 1992...not 1993 when he got stuck with a lot of excess inventory). when he closed up shop in 1999/2000 he was making about $20K at the shop, not enough to help support his 2 kids, so he just went and got a job making $15 an hour and that was that after 20 years of running and owning shops. i think things are a little better now for comics than 2000, sure, but he had a decent enough business and location that during the good times he made some good money, but the whole dynamics of both the comics and sportscard business changed. people started to understand that quanity really impacts collectibility and value and the days of opening up a 35 or 50 cent package of Topps and pulling out $10 "worth" of cards was long over, ditto with buying 2,500 Spawn 1s wholesale at $1 each and blowing them out for $5-$10 a pop (well, the zeppelin exploded with all the other #1s that came out later that were unsellable). just too much product.

 

Well said. If I use comiclink as a proxy, I see about a million dollars worth of sales on page 1 of 402 alone... Again, not sure how good of a representative of the overall market that is, but it seems like some good coin. I don't doubt anything you're saying,

but I just figured a few folks should be raking in on some of the super high end record breaking sales the last few years. It very well could be, as you say, those who've held on to high end stuff for years striking while the iron is hot. And what a good time to cash in.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I'm hoping an ACTUAL new trend at comic conventions would be mandatory bathing and washing of clothes before each day of the con.

 

(thumbs u

[JmC]

Sounds good to me!

[ComicConnoisseur]

Something like 80% of the comic shops have gone under in the last 10-15 years and it's not like these are boom times now. If it was so easy to wait for all those high end high grade books to walk in the door and pay 10% of FMV for them, a lot fewer of these guys would have gone under. It isn't all because they are the Simpsons "Comic Guy" and emit foul odors and have no social skills and scare away customers.

 

I agree that quite a few are now gone but I do ask, how is it that the few today are still open? Is it only because of entering into other collecting areas like figurines and cards, or do the bigger ones sell more comics online now and use the shop as a write off?

pokemon and other cards, sideshow and bowen busts, action figures and the tradepaperbacks help. I am sure some are making some coin just not with the floppies.

[HouseofComics.Com]

And note that he's pulling off TWO cons this weekend. (thumbs u

 

Upcoming Harley Yee Shows 2010:

 

may 14-16 detroit

may 15,16 st paul mn

may 28 to 30 phoenix

june 4-6 charlotte

june 11-13 philadelphia

june 18-21 sydney australia

 

The guy might be expensive, but I have to admire his hustle. practically every frigging weekend he's out there.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Something like 80% of the comic shops have gone under in the last 10-15 years and it's not like these are boom times now. If it was so easy to wait for all those high end high grade books to walk in the door and pay 10% of FMV for them, a lot fewer of these guys would have gone under. It isn't all because they are the Simpsons "Comic Guy" and emit foul odors and have no social skills and scare away customers.

 

That's because they focused on "high end, high grade" books.

 

The fact is, there's a tremendous market that exists for...and I know, sacrilege...reading material.

 

If dealers would simply take in late 70's, 80's, 90's, 00's books for 1-2 cents...OR LESS...each, they could then turn them around for 10 cents, 25 cents, etc.

 

If they did the same thing with lower grade Bronze, Silver, and yes, even Gold, the same thing applies (with higher prices, of course.)

 

So the OPG says that copy of Amazing Spiderman #109 is worth "$39" in VF? Right. Now pay $3 for it, then price it at $10 and make someone REALLLLY happy.

 

There are lots and lots of people who would be happy to do what used to be done (back before people discovered that "comics were worth money") and buy back issues to read for pennies.

 

It can be done, and it can be done profitably. Instead of turning down those long boxes of 90's drek, offer to pay $2-$5 for them, separate the keys, and then sell the rest for cheap. Slab what's worth slabbing, and SELL the rest.

 

Unlike the early 90's, where every Joe dealer was paying 50% of OPG for nearly everything, people trying to get rid of comics don't have that option anymore.

 

Just like a new car loses, what, 50% of its value as soon as it's off the lot, so too does a new comic lose maybe 90-98% of its value when it walks out the door. The cover price is the "pay to play" price. Once it's a back issue, it's junk.

 

And one can see that even this stuff, if it gets to be too much to deal with, can be sold fairly well for $20 or so per long box, plus S&H, on eBay.

 

This is also one of the reasons why I don't understand people who whine and complain about dealers who "take advantage of little old ladies"...yes, there is certainly some of that going on, but the reality is, for every "score" that a dealer makes, how much does he have to pay in storage, overhead, wages, taxes, benefits, just to stay in business? So long as a dealer is upfront about it, and says about that killer run of Action #130-150 that walked through the door "best I could do would be $X" and mean it, then they do it with a clear conscience.

 

So long as there's no deception, what business of anyone's is it what someone offers someone else?

 

Would anybody be shocked to find out that Wal-Mart pays 15 cents for that $5 shirt from China...?

[Foolkiller]

Something like 80% of the comic shops have gone under in the last 10-15 years and it's not like these are boom times now. If it was so easy to wait for all those high end high grade books to walk in the door and pay 10% of FMV for them, a lot fewer of these guys would have gone under. It isn't all because they are the Simpsons "Comic Guy" and emit foul odors and have no social skills and scare away customers.

 

That's because they focused on "high end, high grade" books.

 

The fact is, there's a tremendous market that exists for...and I know, sacrilege...reading material.

 

If dealers would simply take in late 70's, 80's, 90's, 00's books for 1-2 cents...OR LESS...each, they could then turn them around for 10 cents, 25 cents, etc.

 

If they did the same thing with lower grade Bronze, Silver, and yes, even Gold, the same thing applies (with higher prices, of course.)

 

So the OPG says that copy of Amazing Spiderman #109 is worth "$39" in VF? Right. Now pay $3 for it, then price it at $10 and make someone REALLLLY happy.

 

There are lots and lots of people who would be happy to do what used to be done (back before people discovered that "comics were worth money") and buy back issues to read for pennies.

 

It can be done, and it can be done profitably. Instead of turning down those long boxes of 90's drek, offer to pay $2-$5 for them, separate the keys, and then sell the rest for cheap. Slab what's worth slabbing, and SELL the rest.

 

Unlike the early 90's, where every Joe dealer was paying 50% of OPG for nearly everything, people trying to get rid of comics don't have that option anymore.

 

Just like a new car loses, what, 50% of its value as soon as it's off the lot, so too does a new comic lose maybe 90-98% of its value when it walks out the door. The cover price is the "pay to play" price. Once it's a back issue, it's junk.

 

And one can see that even this stuff, if it gets to be too much to deal with, can be sold fairly well for $20 or so per long box, plus S&H, on eBay.

 

This is also one of the reasons why I don't understand people who whine and complain about dealers who "take advantage of little old ladies"...yes, there is certainly some of that going on, but the reality is, for every "score" that a dealer makes, how much does he have to pay in storage, overhead, wages, taxes, benefits, just to stay in business? So long as a dealer is upfront about it, and says about that killer run of Action #130-150 that walked through the door "best I could do would be $X" and mean it, then they do it with a clear conscience.

 

So long as there's no deception, what business of anyone's is it what someone offers someone else?

 

Would anybody be shocked to find out that Wal-Mart pays 15 cents for that $5 shirt from China...?

 

I actually know a number of store owners who do buy the stuff super cheap, price it cheap and still can't move it because some of it is just completely undesirable. It's also not so easy to get people to sell you the stuff at those prices you propose. Frankly, when you tell people their 90s books they have are worthless, they don't want to sell you the books at those prices.

 

Still, I generally agree with this thought process. There are so many times dealers/stores will sell stuff ultra cheap -- and it's resellable -- it all depends on what you paid -- you can turn a profit if your cost basis is cheap enough.

[the blob]

Well said. If I use comiclink as a proxy, I see about a million dollars worth of sales on page 1 of 402 alone... Again, not sure how good of a representative of the overall market that is, but it seems like some good coin. I don't doubt anything you're saying,

-------------

 

some of those 9.6 - 9.8 Spideys, etc. on the first page of comicclink could be the scenarios you envision (I doubt most of the high end GA there is)...some dealer pays 80% of 9.2 Guide for them and then sells them for 30X OPG, but we don't really know if it was that or they bought them as 9.4s or 9.6ses and did a resubmit or a press or bought them from savy folks who knew to demand more than OPG. the thing about that little old lady with a dusty box full of comics from 40 years ago....they're unlikely to be NM or better as that takes some effort to keep something that nice for that long.

 

i'm not saying some dealers don't occasionally win the megaball on something like this, but i think it happens less frequently than you think. Donut is a regular seller and hunter-downer of collections, etc. and it doesn't sound like his comic selling is going to replace his day job anytime soon.

 

but as we see in a lot of posts here, many of these comiclink books are flips of an already CGCed book purchased 6 months ago and often sell for less than what was paid.

 

sure, no doubt, someone made some money, particularly someone who paid 1985 prices for something 25 years ago and it slabbed out as a 9.8 last week, but most of this is not that. remember, dealers picking up high grade BA or SA in 1985 would have sold most of it by 1986 and so on and so on. They were buying inventory to sell, usually not to sit on for 25 years. and if they've been sitting on inventory for 25 years it has probably been cherry picked to death.

[the blob]

Something like 80% of the comic shops have gone under in the last 10-15 years and it's not like these are boom times now. If it was so easy to wait for all those high end high grade books to walk in the door and pay 10% of FMV for them, a lot fewer of these guys would have gone under. It isn't all because they are the Simpsons "Comic Guy" and emit foul odors and have no social skills and scare away customers.

 

That's because they focused on "high end, high grade" books.

 

No, they really didn't. Most of them barely had a vintage inventory and they were trying to sell Spawn 1s for $5 or $10.

 

The fact is, there's a tremendous market that exists for...and I know, sacrilege...reading material.

 

If dealers would simply take in late 70's, 80's, 90's, 00's books for 1-2 cents...OR LESS...each, they could then turn them around for 10 cents, 25 cents, etc.

 

My old LCS did that. Tons of BA, etc. in his 25 cent box. I'd buy big runs of the second tier marvels like Hulk, Captain America, etc. etc. out of there. The drek went in there too. The really terrible drek he made 10 cents a book! He still went out of business. 15 long boxes of bins would produce $50 a week for him. It wasn't worth it. Even in the middle of a wealthy neighborhood in manhattan, one that used to support 5 comic shops in the 80's, there simply weren''t enough people interested in this stuff, even at low prices.

 

If they did the same thing with lower grade Bronze, Silver, and yes, even Gold, the same thing applies (with higher prices, of course.)

 

So the OPG says that copy of Amazing Spiderman #109 is worth "$39" in VF? Right. Now pay $3 for it, then price it at $10 and make someone REALLLLY happy.

 

So sell for less than what you can get for most of this stuff on ebay? And how many folks are coming in and offering up those VF ASM 109s for $3? The crack heads and meth heads have already blown through their collections.

 

There are lots and lots of people who would be happy to do what used to be done (back before people discovered that "comics were worth money") and buy back issues to read for pennies.

 

It can be done, and it can be done profitably. Instead of turning down those long boxes of 90's drek, offer to pay $2-$5 for them, separate the keys, and then sell the rest for cheap. Slab what's worth slabbing, and SELL the rest.

 

Unlike the early 90's, where every Joe dealer was paying 50% of OPG for nearly everything, people trying to get rid of comics don't have that option anymore.

 

Which dealers were these? They really weren't paying 50% of OPG for nearly everything. My LCS paid 5 cents a book, tops, for recent drek and $1 a book for most SA (and sometimes less, depending). He really was out there to take advantage. If anything, dealers nowadays pay a much better % of OPG for GOOD STUFF (and nothing for mediocre stuff) because they know they can sell it on ebay if necessary. Dealers who were paying 50% of OPG for nearly everything were delusional and new to the business. Why do that when you could go to most shows, haggle a bit, and buy decent stuff for less than that?

 

Just like a new car loses, what, 50% of its value as soon as it's off the lot, so too does a new comic lose maybe 90-98% of its value when it walks out the door. The cover price is the "pay to play" price. Once it's a back issue, it's junk.

 

And one can see that even this stuff, if it gets to be too much to deal with, can be sold fairly well for $20 or so per long box, plus S&H, on eBay.

 

No doubt plenty of comic shops get rid of stuff they're tired of just like this but they don't want to advertise that fact.

 

Sure, making all those back issues from the 80s, 90s and 2000s $3 a pop bagged and boarded loses a lot of potential 25 cent sales and 99.9% of it will gather dust, but those 25 cent sales are unlikely to add up to enough to make a difference nowadays. It might have in the 80s when a store might expect 100-150 elementary school age kids to each drop by 2 or 3 days a week and spend $1-$3 a visit (like I did back then and seemed to be a decent chunk of my childhood LCSes business) so having the cheap stuff really appealed to that budget point, but those kids just aren't there.

[the blob]

On an unrelated note, how many of us here scrounged around the house as a kid looking for loose change in sofas, coat pockets, etc. to go out and buy comics with?

[decepticon]

On an unrelated note, how many of us here scrounged around the house as a kid looking for loose change in sofas, coat pockets, etc. to go out and buy comics with?

I did that to play arcade video games.. pre-comic era.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Something like 80% of the comic shops have gone under in the last 10-15 years and it's not like these are boom times now. If it was so easy to wait for all those high end high grade books to walk in the door and pay 10% of FMV for them, a lot fewer of these guys would have gone under. It isn't all because they are the Simpsons "Comic Guy" and emit foul odors and have no social skills and scare away customers.

 

That's because they focused on "high end, high grade" books.

 

No, they really didn't. Most of them barely had a vintage inventory and they were trying to sell Spawn 1s for $5 or $10.

 

Yeah, that was the point you and I were both making. They WISHED for the "high grade, high end stuff", but didn't make what they HAD work.

 

The fact is, there's a tremendous market that exists for...and I know, sacrilege...reading material.

 

If dealers would simply take in late 70's, 80's, 90's, 00's books for 1-2 cents...OR LESS...each, they could then turn them around for 10 cents, 25 cents, etc.

 

My old LCS did that. Tons of BA, etc. in his 25 cent box. I'd buy big runs of the second tier marvels like Hulk, Captain America, etc. etc. out of there. The drek went in there too. The really terrible drek he made 10 cents a book! He still went out of business.

 

Before you can use your example as evidence of "even though they do such and such, they still went out of business", I'd have to know the details. People go out of business for all SORTS of reasons, not just a lack of understanding of their market. Just because he did what I advocated doesn't mean he was a good businessman. That's only one part.

 

15 long boxes of bins would produce $50 a week for him. It wasn't worth it. Even in the middle of a wealthy neighborhood in manhattan, one that used to support 5 comic shops in the 80's, there simply weren''t enough people interested in this stuff, even at low prices.[/b]

 

Again...it's only part of the solution. Obviously, one must be proficient in ALL facets of the business, not just in "turnover." And use of the internet is VITAL. This will not work anymore on a solely B&M basis.

 

If they did the same thing with lower grade Bronze, Silver, and yes, even Gold, the same thing applies (with higher prices, of course.)

 

So the OPG says that copy of Amazing Spiderman #109 is worth "$39" in VF? Right. Now pay $3 for it, then price it at $10 and make someone REALLLLY happy.

 

So sell for less than what you can get for most of this stuff on ebay?

 

Ya know...we've had this discussion before.

 

1. It's not "less than what you can get for most of this stuff." You'd have a difficult time moving a Spifey #109 in VF for a lot more than $10 on eBay. $15 I can see, $20 is pushing it.

 

2. When eBay fees and Paypal fees and packing and materials and going to the PO are allllll figured in, even if you sell an item for $20 on eBay (half guide? for common, non-super high grade stuff? SIGN ME UP!!) your break even is likely just about what you would have made selling it for $10 in the store.

 

It's all about factoring in ALL the details.

 

And how many folks are coming in and offering up those VF ASM 109s for $3? The crack heads and meth heads have already blown through their collections.[/b]

 

Lots and lots...if you're paying attention, are in a large market, and buy EVERYTHING.

 

My local shop bought a high grade collection that had of everything Marvel from about 1973-1995. And I mean eveything. About 5,000 books. He paid $10K for the whole thing. $2/book.

 

I was beaten out on the Hulk #181 and the Spidey #129, but I bought the X-Men #94 for $300. I had it pressed and subbed and it came back a 9.4, which I subsequently sold for $2K. The owner could easily have done what I did, but isn't interested.

 

How did he get this collection?

 

Because no one else was buying anything in the area.

 

He made nearly the $10K off me, and that was selling the vast majority of the books for 75 cents...I spent about $7,000 on that collection. There were four Star Wars #12s in there. I slabbed them, they all came back 9.8. I sold one for $500, another for $200. The #14 I slabbed at 9.8 and sold for $350.

 

So, for the four books that I bought, I made back nearly half what I paid for the 1500 or so that I bought.

 

Now, granted, a collection like this only comes in once every 3-4 years...but the store gets walk-ins all the time. They come in because the owner will actually buy comics, unlike allll the rest of the stores who have all their capital tied up in overpriced material that no one will buy.

 

 

There are lots and lots of people who would be happy to do what used to be done (back before people discovered that "comics were worth money") and buy back issues to read for pennies.

 

It can be done, and it can be done profitably. Instead of turning down those long boxes of 90's drek, offer to pay $2-$5 for them, separate the keys, and then sell the rest for cheap. Slab what's worth slabbing, and SELL the rest.

 

Unlike the early 90's, where every Joe dealer was paying 50% of OPG for nearly everything, people trying to get rid of comics don't have that option anymore.

 

Which dealers were these? They really weren't paying 50% of OPG for nearly everything.

 

Sure they were. I made a tidy sum at Clay's Comics in Hayward. I made money at Halley's Comics in Pleasanton. I made money from Crush Comics and Land of Nevawuz. Most places that bought books paid 50% in cash for "hot books"...and back then, EVERYTHING was "hot."

 

Now, granted, my market was the SF Bay Area...but I went to Wondercon and got the SAME DEALS from national sellers.

 

It was a different world in the early 90's.

 

My LCS paid 5 cents a book, tops, for recent drek and $1 a book for most SA (and sometimes less, depending). He really was out there to take advantage.

 

That's good for him. But he was a lonely soul back in the early 90's.

 

If anything, dealers nowadays pay a much better % of OPG for GOOD STUFF

 

I don't buy that for a second. Why would anyone pay a "much better % of OPG" for stuff that won't sell for 40% of OPG?

 

And that assumes OPG doesn't have its head up its arse, like it does most books. I'm sure there are TONS of dealers who would happily pay $5 for New Mutants #98. That's what OPG says it's "worth."

 

(and nothing for mediocre stuff) because they know they can sell it on ebay if necessary. Dealers who were paying 50% of OPG for nearly everything were delusional and new to the business. Why do that when you could go to most shows, haggle a bit, and buy decent stuff for less than that? [/b]

 

No, in fact, they were not "delusional and new to the business." You seem to have forgotten what the atmosphere was like back in the early 90's. Back then, the OPG was actually relevant, and the Updates under Jon Warren made a really good attempt at being curent. Dealers were paying $40 for New Mutants #87 that had a Guide value of $65. They were happily handing over $20 or more for Spidey #300 with a guide price of $30.

 

They did this because the demand existed.

 

And I truly do not know where you where you were buying, but it was not possible to go to most shows, haggle, and buy decent stuff for less than that." Stuff...almost everything...was selling at or MORE than OPG. Again...this is back when the OPG was RELEVANT and CURRENT, and prices were a lot lower. Back when FF #48 was a $100 book, and Avengers #1 was $700. Plus, the market was huge and getting bigger.

 

Are you aware that in coins, the margins are razor thin? That coins are so tightly that there's a "Bid" and "Ask" price on the Coin Dealer Newsletter (The "Greysheet", which is wholesale pricing, in general) that are sometimes razor thin? That many dealers will buy a coin for $50 that they will turn around and sell for $60? That's one of the reasons the coin market is so stable...there's no lack of customers at "guide price" (which is kept religiously current) so dealers can pay more for their material.

 

Just like a new car loses, what, 50% of its value as soon as it's off the lot, so too does a new comic lose maybe 90-98% of its value when it walks out the door. The cover price is the "pay to play" price. Once it's a back issue, it's junk.

 

And one can see that even this stuff, if it gets to be too much to deal with, can be sold fairly well for $20 or so per long box, plus S&H, on eBay.

 

No doubt plenty of comic shops get rid of stuff they're tired of just like this but they don't want to advertise that fact.

 

Sure, making all those back issues from the 80s, 90s and 2000s $3 a pop bagged and boarded loses a lot of potential 25 cent sales and 99.9% of it will gather dust, but those 25 cent sales are unlikely to add up to enough to make a difference nowadays.

 

Turnover. It's all about turnover. If you're selling 1,000 25 cent books a day (not outside of the realm of possibility for larger markets), that's $250 that will more than pay for "the 25 cent stock clerk" plus all sorts of other stuff. Even selling 300-400 a day will do that. This, of course, can be "amortized" over a weekly basis.

 

Or..it can be sold all at once in a heavily advertised "parking lot sale" at regular intervals during the year. My LCS went through about 65 long boxes at 50 cents each the last time I went to one. That's $8,000. Not bad for a one day sale.

 

It might have in the 80s when a store might expect 100-150 elementary school age kids to each drop by 2 or 3 days a week and spend $1-$3 a visit (like I did back then and seemed to be a decent chunk of my childhood LCSes business) so having the cheap stuff really appealed to that budget point, but those kids just aren't there.

 

Of course not. Why would they be when a new comic costs $4?

 

If they could buy "sorta new" comics for 25 cents, or 50 cents, or even $1...now THAT'S something that might appeal.

[the blob]

No, in fact, they were not "delusional and new to the business." You seem to have forgotten what the atmosphere was like back in the early 90's. Back then, the OPG was actually relevant, and the Updates under Jon Warren made a really good attempt at being curent. Dealers were paying $40 for New Mutants #87 that had a Guide value of $65. They were happily handing over $20 or more for Spidey #300 with a guide price of $30.

 

They did this because the demand existed.

 

And I truly do not know where you where you were buying, but it was not possible to go to most shows, haggle, and buy decent stuff for less than that." Stuff...almost everything...was selling at or MORE than OPG. Again...this is back when the OPG was RELEVANT and CURRENT, and prices were a lot lower. Back when FF #48 was a $100 book, and Avengers #1 was $700. Plus, the market was huge and getting bigger.

-----------------

 

Paying 50% of OPG for a "hot" book like NM 87 or ASM 300 (back then) (or Harbinger 1 at the right time) that you could stick up on the wall and sell for guide (or more) in a couple of days is not buying "nearly everything." Fact of the matter is, most BA and SA (except for characters that were getting revived like Ghost Rider, etc.) was not particularly "hot." You could pluck many high grade BA books out of dollar and 50 cent boxes that were then $4-$8 in guide. I routinely haggled mid-grade SA (even Spideys) down to 1/3-1/2 of OPG (if I spent enough money).

 

I'm guessing that things were more delusional on the west coast vs. the east coast. Fact is, I think there was simply a lot more vintage material here back then and a lot more dealers with substantial inventory. We still had these old time dealers with massive inventories wholesaling out to other local dealers. Now I guess, with ebay, the material has been spread around the country.

 

I went to a show in 1993 (yes, I know it's not 1992 or 1991, but things were still grooving along in 1993) and paid $500 to Mike Carbonaro (of Neatstuff) for the following: Hulk 181 NM, ASM 100 NM-, SS #1 VF+, Avengers 2 VF- and FF 48 Fine + about 125-150 20/25 cent Captain Americas and other Marvels, etc. in VF/NM shape that probably averaged [then] $4-5 in OPG each. I added up the big books around then and I think they were $1200-$1300 in guide. I was offered Sgt. Fury 1 - 100 for $200 (and the 1st 10 issues were probably VGs), but declined. Yes, I know these were good deals at the time, but I never paid more than 50% of guide for anything at these shows other than Golden Age. True, I always spent enough $ to justify haggling and getting a good deal and did not chase high grade books in particular (oh well) and I know I would not have routinely gotten as good a discount if I had done so.

[the blob]

Of course not. Why would they be when a new comic costs $4?

 

If they could buy "sorta new" comics for 25 cents, or 50 cents, or even $1...now THAT'S something that might appeal.

 

----

 

Thinking shops can sell 1,000 25 cent books a day is a bit unrealistic. I'm not sure Midtown comics could do that day in and day out and they have a huge walk in business and about 10,000 square feet of store.

 

All the shops I regularly hit have quality (new and not so new) material in their 50 cent, 3 for $2 and $1 boxes. All are close to schools. None of them appear to have hoards of kids coming in and buying these cheap back issues. It perplexes me too. It's not just the cost that scares the kids off, I guess the $2-$3 cover prices (and lack of avilability at newstands, etc.) means their parents never bought them comics when they were 5 or 6, so they have no interest in them at 9 or 10 when they have a little bit of money. I honestly don't think it's just having 12 cartoon channels and Play Station 3 that turned them off. My 4 year old likes comics because I given them to him. If they actually cost me $3 a pop I would not be doing that and I'm a frigging collector!

[Prince Namor]

Kids today don't buy comics like WE did back in the day. They buy the movie. Strike one.

 

Marvel and DC f-ed up most of the numbering on titles and went to doing limited series and re-starts, etc.., so it's more confusing and costly to collect every numeric and limited series of any one character...Strike Two.

 

Too many titles from too many publishers. Even when bought for pennies, I'm sure stores at a certain point THREW AWAY Valiant and Defiant issues that they couldn't even give away. And when you sell for 25 cents, what was last year 'worth' $5 or more, well....strike three.

 

Because of this glut and the number of speculators who got burned, and the number of stores that had too much they couldn't sell...they started ORDERING TIGHTLY... which automaticlly gave them less back issues from their own inventory....

 

Once they have less back issues from their own inventory... new customers have less to choose from in back issues... which means they have smaller collections... which means they have less to sell back to the store....

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Paying 50% of OPG for a "hot" book like NM 87 or ASM 300 (back then) (or Harbinger 1 at the right time) that you could stick up on the wall and sell for guide (or more) in a couple of days is not buying "nearly everything."

 

Those were just the "hot" examples. ANYTHING Silver Age was hot at the time. Anything Silver Age in anything other than "garbage" condition (and I mean DC and Marvel, not Archie, Disney, or Gold Key) would sell, because the keys were only a couple hundred to a couple thousand dollars, and everything else was $5 or less.

 

I mean, really...House of Mystery #143 was an $8 book in "mint"! It would have been kind of hard to pay less than $4 to get a copy for someone who wanted it.

 

And...I feel like I'm repeating this: this was when the OPG was STILL RELEVANT and CURRENT. In Fall, 1989, UPG Update #10, Defenders #1 was a $10 book....and it generally SOLD for $10, in (what we would now call) F/VF and up conditions. Marvel Spotlight #5 was $8. Both "cold" books at the time.

 

Dealers could, and did, pay 50% of Guide for these books because the OPG was accurate. And that made the difference.

 

Fact of the matter is, most BA and SA (except for characters that were getting revived like Ghost Rider, etc.) was not particularly "hot."

 

That is just absolutely not true. The period between 1987-1993 saw the biggest increase in the value of Silver Age books ever, on a percentage basis.

 

Bronze was dabbly, but once the Silver got sucked out of the market...and it got sucked HARD...in 1987-1989, buyers had no choice but to turn to heretofore ignored Bronze. By 1991, BRONZE was "the new thing in town", buoyed by the success of Bronze revamps like GR, New Warriors, Thanos, Deathlok, etc.

 

You could pluck many high grade BA books out of dollar and 50 cent boxes that were then $4-$8 in guide.

 

Before about 1990, there were about 40 Bronze books priced more than $2 in the Guide, with the notable exceptions: X-Men, Neal Adams, Miller Daredevil, and starting in 1989, Batman.

 

Other than that, you had MS #5 at $8, Defenders #1 at $10, Ghost Rider #1 at $6, Spectacular Spiderman #1 at $10....and virtually all the rest at $2 or less.

 

So you really couldn't be plucking high grade BA books out of the dollar bin that guided for $4-$8 because virtually nothing BA guided for that...until 1990...and then, they were sucked up as each new character "got hot" (for example...two months after GR #1 came out, I couldn't find a single issue of Marvel Spotlight to anywhere. And I looked all over the Bay Area.)

 

When it got hot, it got hot very, very fast.

 

Hey, maybe you were lucky in your area...who knows. But the reality is, dealers could, and routinely did, buy books for around 50% of OPG in those days. I'll concede you an exception...books less than about $2-$3, they didn't bother with.

 

I routinely haggled mid-grade SA (even Spideys) down to 1/3-1/2 of OPG (if I spent enough money).

 

Like I said...I dunno where you were, but that was most definitely not the norm. I can remember dealers laughing out loud when they were asked for discounts off their full OPG prices. There's one story about a famous dealer who had a copy of FF #1 for $100 that a buyer wanted to haggle on....so the guy took the book, smashed it on the ground, stomped on it, and then said "yeah, sure. I'll take less than that."

 

That was the dealer attitude of the day. Why sell for less when there were 20 people behind you clamoring to buy it for more.

 

The price trends of the late 80's/early 90's clearly demonstrate this.

 

I'm guessing that things were more delusional on the west coast vs. the east coast.

 

How does someone respond to a statement like that...? :shrug:

 

Fact is, I think there was simply a lot more vintage material here back then and a lot more dealers with substantial inventory. We still had these old time dealers with massive inventories wholesaling out to other local dealers. Now I guess, with ebay, the material has been spread around the country.

 

Now THAT is a fair assesment. This was all, of course, pre-internet, and the only way for collections to be distributed across the nation was catalogue and conventions.

 

I went to a show in 1993 (yes, I know it's not 1992 or 1991, but things were still grooving along in 1993) and paid $500 to Mike Carbonaro (of Neatstuff) for the following: Hulk 181 NM, ASM 100 NM-, SS #1 VF+, Avengers 2 VF- and FF 48 Fine + about 125-150 20/25 cent Captain Americas and other Marvels,

 

Sorry, man, but I know Carbonaro (in fact, he nearly mucked up a deal between myself and one of his toadies at SDCC last year), and there's no way he would have sold you those books for $500.

 

It's just not possible, unless he was high as a kite (which is certainly possible.)

 

Guide on the Hulk #181 and the SS #1 ALONE was over $500.

 

I would have bought your story if it were 1990. I wouldn't if it's 1993. It's just not possible without extreme extenuating circumstances. Not from Carbonaro, not in 1993. This is a guy who, in 1999, when I tried to buy VG/F X-Men #95s from a stack of about 30 he had tried to charge me about $50...EACH...in 1999!

 

etc. in VF/NM shape that probably averaged [then] $4-5 in OPG each. I added up the big books around then and I think they were $1200-$1300 in guide.

 

In the 1994 OPG, it adds up to about $1150 (and I'm also certain Carbonaro was not interested in "pluses" or "minuses", unless he could eke more $$ out of it.) If we say the guide prices for the 125 other books were $3..not $4-$5, just $3...that means you paid $500 for a lot that had a conservative current OPG of $1500+?

 

From Mike Carbonaro...? Mike Carbonaro of Neatstuff Collectibles, LLC....?

 

 

I was offered Sgt. Fury 1 - 100 for $200 (and the 1st 10 issues were probably VGs), but declined. Yes, I know these were good deals at the time, but I never paid more than 50% of guide for anything at these shows other than Golden Age. True, I always spent enough $ to justify haggling and getting a good deal and did not chase high grade books in particular (oh well) and I know I would not have routinely gotten as good a discount if I had done so.

 

Well...aside from your Carbonaro story...and I'm not saying you're a liar; I respect you too much for that...I just think you're misremembering...it's certainly possible that on the East Coast, books were selling for much less of a premium than in California. Knowing what I know about East Coast dealers, I find that a tad hard to believe, too, but who knows, maybe you're the best negotiator in comics.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Once they have less back issues from their own inventory... new customers have less to choose from in back issues... which means they have smaller collections... which means they have less to sell back to the store....

 

 

One of the things big sellers don't tell you, and that most national dealers except Chuck won't tell you, is that they aggressively seek out new material for their stock, all the time, from any source they can find it.

 

Ask Donut how much work he does looking and obtaining collections every year.

 

It is this constant turnover that is the lifeblood of their business, and what has allowed them to stay afloat the longest.

 

Honestly, most comic store owners want to get their new inventory in every week, rotate out the old stuff, and just keep things the way they are. Some of them don't buy collections because they simply don't want to. They're too lazy or too apathetic to do the work required to obtain, process, and sell these collections, so they just don't buy them.

 

And it is WORK. Anyone who tells you it's easy to process 15 long boxes of unsorted, unbagged comics has never done it.