New Trend at Comic Conventions???

[Prince Namor]

"I'm guessing that things were more delusional on the west coast vs. the east coast."

 

In more ways than one!

[Prince Namor]

 

Once they have less back issues from their own inventory... new customers have less to choose from in back issues... which means they have smaller collections... which means they have less to sell back to the store....

 

 

One of the things big sellers don't tell you, and that most national dealers except Chuck won't tell you, is that they aggressively seek out new material for their stock, all the time, from any source they can find it.

 

Ask Donut how much work he does looking and obtaining collections every year.

 

It is this constant turnover that is the lifeblood of their business, and what has allowed them to stay afloat the longest.

 

Honestly, most comic store owners want to get their new inventory in every week, rotate out the old stuff, and just keep things the way they are. Some of them don't buy collections because they simply don't want to. They're too lazy or too apathetic to do the work required to obtain, process, and sell these collections, so they just don't buy them.

 

And it is WORK. Anyone who tells you it's easy to process 15 long boxes of unsorted, unbagged comics has never done it.

(thumbs u

 

[HouseofComics.Com]

I always enjoy your perspective and knowledge. Your comment about the LCS blowing out $8000 in a blowout parking lot sale was interesting. Kind of hard to duplicate on a regular basis, I'd think, but believable.

 

I do not think that any store could move 1000 quarter comics day after day. That's a ton.

 

And it is WORK. Anyone who tells you it's easy to process 15 long boxes of unsorted, unbagged comics has never done it.

 

This is ridiculously true. It was over a year before I finished the last of the HiJinx Comics bronze after buying out their back room. And about a year ago I bought maybe eight long boxes at a nickel a comic. It took me absolutely forever to just sort those books. I felt that just my time to sort essentially tripled my cost.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I always enjoy your perspective and knowledge.

 

And I, yours! Your knowledge about the retail side from the 80's is invaluable. It's awesome talking to people who were there.

 

Your comment about the LCS blowing out $8000 in a blowout parking lot sale was interesting. Kind of hard to duplicate on a regular basis, I'd think, but believable.

 

It's not something they do on a regular basis, but it always does well. Last one they had, I bought 7.5 long boxes myself (cause I'm an addict.)

 

I do not think that any store could move 1000 quarter comics day after day. That's a ton.

 

About four long boxes, yeah. Doable, if you have a tremendous amount of foot traffic. But, granted, it's not something the average, or even large store can do. But it's the kind of commitment that I think someone should have if they really want to build a steady clientele that consists equally of readers and collectors, which I think is the only future of this hobby.

 

And it is WORK. Anyone who tells you it's easy to process 15 long boxes of unsorted, unbagged comics has never done it.

 

This is ridiculously true. It was over a year before I finished the last of the HiJinx Comics bronze after buying out their back room. And about a year ago I bought maybe eight long boxes at a nickel a comic. It took me absolutely forever to just sort those books. I felt that just my time to sort essentially tripled my cost.

 

Ugh, don't I know it. It usually takes me an evening to process a single long box. I try VERY hard to keep unbagged books from shuffling around a lot, due to the inevitable transfer issues.

 

I bought about 55 long boxes last year for $12-$15 each...all 80's and 90's

I STILL have not processed more than about 15 of them.

 

And that time has to be figured into what you're willing to pay for the books.

[Zapp Comics]

 

 

Love this thread. Agree with blob on just about everything. I will say that very few of the shops in my area (NJ) do not buy back issues, they just have a different business model and don't have the knowledge or energy to do it.We buy quite a bit and fall into the "price it fairly and give a moderate discount" model.

There are plenty of shops who make a decent living just selling new product(comics/gaming/toys) by tracking it well and watching overheard

 

[HouseofComics.Com]

I still don't think it's doable except for maybe a few stores in the whole country. I'm thinking of the biggest Bay Area stores and they couldn't do it. Even if there were people like you around, after awhile you guys can't keep up. There's a limit to what even the best buyers can read (or process if the goal is resale). Also, it just adds up to very little money. If it was 500 a day that means you have to keep bringing in long boxes on a large annual basis and yet the daily sales from it would be only a small part of what you need and only equal to selling 10 tpbs.

 

 

I do not think that any store could move 1000 quarter comics day after day. That's a ton.

 

About four long boxes, yeah. Doable, if you have a tremendous amount of foot traffic. But, granted, it's not something the average, or even large store can do. But it's the kind of commitment that I think someone should have if they really want to build a steady clientele that consists equally of readers and collectors, which I think is the only future of this hobby.

 

 

[Flaming_Telepath]

And it is WORK. Anyone who tells you it's easy to process 15 long boxes of unsorted, unbagged comics has never done it.

 

Or 200 of them.

 

The 'S's alone were 27 longs and they weren't in any order. Over 8,000 books, they covered maybe 300 titles (mini-series, one-shots, etc). The sorting and ordering alone took two full days.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Love this thread. Agree with blob on just about everything. I will say that very few of the shops in my area (NJ) do not buy back issues, they just have a different business model and don't have the knowledge or energy to do it.We buy quite a bit and fall into the "price it fairly and give a moderate discount" model.

There are plenty of shops who make a decent living just selling new product(comics/gaming/toys) by tracking it well and watching overheard

 

 

I think you've misunderstood me. Let me clarify: at no time did I ever state...or even imply...that those who were making a decent living...ie, successful...were going about it the wrong way.

 

If it's *working*, great! That's fantastic!

 

My commentary was about stores that are struggling and trying to keep from going OUT of business (assuming they don't want to.)

 

There are, in fact, plenty of shops who do just fine with what they do, and there's nothing wrong with that. But if they're NOT doing just fine, then other avenues (that is, back issues) need to be explored to stay afloat.

 

The main points are simply this:

 

1. if you're going to sell back issues, to be successful, you have to have turnaround. Whether it's $10,000 books, or 25c books, turnaround is king. Having a store full of overpriced museum pieces KILLS STORES. Paying "top dollar" for stuff that will tie up capital for months or years KILLS STORES.

 

2. If you're struggling (that's the key word on which this point hinges) as a retailer, and you don't sell back issues, it's something you definitely should consider doing. Those retailers who refuse to deal in back issues, for whatever reason, are cutting off a wildly valuable avenue.

[the blob]

From Mike Carbonaro...? Mike Carbonaro of Neatstuff Collectibles, LLC....?

-------------------------

 

In 1993 Mike was just one of many guys who did the show circuit in the northeast. He had not started running his own shows by then. He had been doing shows since at least the early 80s (and have been told since the 70s when he was a teenager) as I remember buying from him when I was like 12 and then again in my 20s in the 90's. I used to get tremendous deals from him then. His goal was to blow stuff out at every show because that's how he sold stuff. No ebay back then!

 

And yes, that's what I paid (which was a lot of money for me back then as I had just started law school). And I have to say, I did a great job of haggling on that one. (Not so good a job on the Superman 11 I bought later that day for $70 that I wound up selling 15 years later for $80....). Maybe my OPG estimate was to the monthly magazine of that month (man, i loved that magazine!) as the show was later in the year. Maybe he was having a bad day and really needed the money, I don't know. Admittedly, another dealer, from out-of-town, offered me $1000 for the group an hour later! (Which I didn't take...perhaps stupidly.), but I figured he simply had quick sales waiting back at his store for the 181 and SS #1 (and I wound up trading him the 181 for an FF 5 and extras at a later show). With that said, from that other dealer I bought a nice stack of spideys from the 20s - 50s that were all about $20-$25 in guide for $10 each (stupidly passing on a really low grade #14! at that price!), so it wasn't only Mike willing to haggle.

 

Someone here will no doubt confirm (and Chuck has said as much on his website) that there was simply a lot more of this material sitting around NYC and the NE in general as that is where many of the original hoarders and Rogofskys and Kochs and Dolgoffs were as well as the distributors. So, really, I can't speak as to the west coast or 1989-1991/2 as I only got back into this in earnest in 1993 with maybe a bit of perusing in 1992.

[the blob]

Anyway, going back on track (but off topic from the original post), aside from falling readership, many stores who closed up in the last half of the 90s got burned and stuck with 500-2000 copies of Turok 1 X 200 other issues that went 90% unsold and never developed the back issue interest. And it seems like it took a year or two of overordering for these guys to "get it". Tens of thousands (or more) of dollars in credit or cash tied up in worthless new issue inventory that could, at best, be sold for 25 cents each when wholesale was 75 cents - $1.50 depending. That's enough debt and losses to put a smaller store under, especially if you're not running other aspects of your business particularly well.

 

i don't think these stores went under because they paid too much for a copy of NM 87 or ASM 300 or whatever. these books went down in price gradually enough that if you had half a brain you could have unloaded them in time. in terms of paying for vintage comics...at least in my neck of the woods...no stores were paying anything like 50% of OPG for generic vintage stuff. I had a lot of conversations with my old LCS owner (as he's a friend...I'm one of his kid's godparents) and he was pretty in the loop with other comic shop owners. If they were paying 50% he would have wholesaled half his stuff to them.

[Foolkiller]

 

Love this thread. Agree with blob on just about everything. I will say that very few of the shops in my area (NJ) do not buy back issues, they just have a different business model and don't have the knowledge or energy to do it.We buy quite a bit and fall into the "price it fairly and give a moderate discount" model.

There are plenty of shops who make a decent living just selling new product(comics/gaming/toys) by tracking it well and watching overheard

 

Ben! So you finally stopped lurking...

[RockMyAmadeus]

From Mike Carbonaro...? Mike Carbonaro of Neatstuff Collectibles, LLC....?

-------------------------

 

In 1993 Mike was just one of many guys who did the show circuit in the northeast. He had not started running his own shows by then. He had been doing shows since at least the early 80s (and have been told since the 70s when he was a teenager) as I remember buying from him when I was like 12 and then again in my 20s in the 90's. I used to get tremendous deals from him then. His goal was to blow stuff out at every show because that's how he sold stuff. No ebay back then!

 

I just wanted to establish we were talking about the same Mike Carbonaro.

 

Cause, you know, to me...someone who has dealt with him off and on for maybe a dozen years now....it's a tad incredulous to see Carbonaro give away high grade, hot keys for a fraction of guide in 1993.

 

But that's just me....

 

And yes, that's what I paid (which was a lot of money for me back then as I had just started law school). And I have to say, I did a great job of haggling on that one. (Not so good a job on the Superman 11 I bought later that day for $70 that I wound up selling 15 years later for $80....). Maybe my OPG estimate was to the monthly magazine of that month (man, i loved that magazine!) as the show was later in the year. Maybe he was having a bad day and really needed the money, I don't know. Admittedly, another dealer, from out-of-town, offered me $1000 for the group an hour later!

 

Now, what was it you were saying about dealers not paying 50% of OPG back then....?

 

 

Seems to me, by your estimate, that dealer was offering you about 80% of guide....

 

 

 

Someone here will no doubt confirm (and Chuck has said as much on his website) that there was simply a lot more of this material sitting around NYC and the NE in general as that is where many of the original hoarders and Rogofskys and Kochs and Dolgoffs were as well as the distributors. So, really, I can't speak as to the west coast or 1989-1991/2 as I only got back into this in earnest in 1993 with maybe a bit of perusing in 1992.

 

Well, sure, that's entirely possible, given the pre-internet age. I know that, in the four years I was spending every dime I made on comics, I was rarely able to get "cheaper than OPG" prices for anything, in any grade, and forget the hot stuff.

 

The environment that I was in, in fact, was one of CONSTANT upward mobility on prices, and everyone from Comics & Comix to Fact, Fiction, & Fantasy (later Fantasy Books & Games, from whence came Fantasy Distribution, whose stock was bought by Todd Lange), Land of Nevawuz, etc...these stores priced everything at guide, and EVERY time the new update came out, the prices were changed THAT DAY (NEVER down, ALWAYS up.)

 

When OPG Update #12 came out in June-ish of '90, with the crazy leap in McFarlane Amazing and Hulk prices (#300 went from $7.50 in the big guide to $30...#301-305 went from $2.70 to $15!) that stuff was ripped off walls and bins and repriced instantly. When FF #1 went from $3,000 to $3,300 (one of the massive prices increases it was taking at the time), Comics & Comix in Berkeley took the VG/F copy they had in their case priced at $1,000 and marked it up to $1,100...and of course it sold.

 

I can remember going to WonderCon in 1991 and being blown away that there were actually dealers there who sold comics for LESS THAN OVERSTREET!!! Not many, but there were.

 

If you didn't get it then...the chances were nearly guaranteed you'd have to pay more for it later on.

 

If only I had waited, not knowing the great crash was only a few years in the future. But, of course, no one knew that, and that was the insanity that was comics in the early 90's, as many collectors and dealers who went through it can attest. As you yourself stated, you weren't into comics at that time, getting back into it on the very crest of the wave (1993) before it all came crashing down.

[Foolkiller]

Too bad you can't teleport back and snag that FF 1 -- even at the price increase

[ComicsAndCode]

is this a local north carolina show? if so, your couple of hundred bucks should be a big deal to these guys.

 

You're right about that. The economy stinks here. Unemployment is super high. I have no idea what they're thinking.

 

That's the problem. They're not. Remember, we're talking about comic dealers here. Not trying to denegrate/ undermine the few respectable dealers out there, but the average intelligence of a comic dealer is not that high as to be one does not demand a great deal of mental agility - perhaps more salesmanship than anything. Am I over-generalizing?

[Prince Namor]

is this a local north carolina show? if so, your couple of hundred bucks should be a big deal to these guys.

 

You're right about that. The economy stinks here. Unemployment is super high. I have no idea what they're thinking.

 

That's the problem. They're not. Remember, we're talking about comic dealers here. Not trying to denegrate/ undermine the few respectable dealers out there, but the average intelligence of a comic dealer is not that high as to be one does not demand a great deal of mental agility - perhaps more salesmanship than anything. Am I over-generalizing?

 

I understand what your saying, but I think you're still over-generalizing.

I'm not even going to go into the cost of owning a business or transporting books to a show, paying for tables, set up time, etc. etc., but rather address the whole intelligence/apathy issue...

 

Remember, when there was easy money to be made in back issues, EVERYONE got into it. BUYING back issues was easier and SELLING back issues was easier.

 

Now, any schmoe on craigslist that ever bought an X-Force #1, thinks it worth top value in the highest listed grade, not mention what they want for something that actually IS worth something. It's tough for a dealer to buy in that type of market and turn a profit on a book that may sit for god knows how long.

Now obviously, X-Force #1 wouldn't be a good investment, but what is? What is so hot, that someone is willing to sell it to them at a price they can live with and they can then sell it to someone at a price that turns them a profit in a respectable amount of time?

 

Where are you going to sell YOUR Iron Man #1? To a dealer at 50% of guide or on the forum (or e-bay) at as high as the market will offer?

 

Maybe in bigger markets, stores can keep buying key back issues from wholesalers and moving them, but here in the St. Louis market, not a single store has an Iron Man #1 or Spider-man #1 or a Golden Age Key or even a Walking Dead #1 (much less a Cursed Pirate Girl, dang it), and that tells me there isn't the BIG DEMAND for it. And I'm just not sure it has to do with them being dim, I think they're just responding to what they can and can't sell in a reasonable amount of time.

 

Plus you have to take into account that people don't want to PAY guide price for a book, even a key book. So are you going to discount it to move it? Or let it sit, and sit, and sit....

 

The smart thinking is....what is going to make me the most money in the quickest amount of time. And in small (lame) markets like this, moderns are still a pretty sure thing.

You learn how to order from Previews based on what your customers want and you can make a good profit and operate week to week.

 

You start writing out big dollar checks for SA/BA/GA books that might sit for years and you could go out of business real quick. So you go with what works, smile, and ask "Have you read the latest Nova?"

 

And that's why, I THINK, we don't see back issue stores popping up all over the place. Not because comic book store owners are not so bright, but because it's not a good profitable idea. The best dealers in this business have generally been around a long time.

 

Strangely enough, in the St. Louis area, most of the dealers, either with stores or who do shows, that have a decent back issue selection, tend to be the guys with the least amount of salesmanship.

I don't flash my money. But I do eyeball a book, and scrunch up my face, and use every passive-aggressive technique in the book just to get them to talk to me. But usually they just act annoyed.

It's weird. All they have to say is, "First appearance of Moon Knight. Cool book.", to start the ball rolling. But they don't. Their loss, cause I can afford it.

That's why I buy here mostly, where I'm amongst like-minded comic geeks, some of whom I've got to know and trust and enjoy the hobby we all love.

 

Plus we have some great dealers ON THIS FORUM! I know nothing beats SEEING it on a shelf, but this is the best alternative.

 

Besides, we should feel lucky dealers even bother to set up at shows with the amount of other options they have available to them to sell their books.

 

There. I wanted to make sure my 1000th post wasn't just a smiley face.

[HouseofComics.Com]

Not trying to denegrate/ undermine the few respectable dealers out there, but the average intelligence of a comic dealer is not that high

 

Rory Root, founder of Comic Relief, was a member of Mensa. FWIW anyway.

[Chespirito]

Too bad you can't teleport back and snag that FF 1 -- even at the price increase

If I could go back in time...from the guy in the black trench-coat.....I would have chosen the blue pill instead!!!

[the blob]

Now, what was it you were saying about dealers not paying 50% of OPG back then....?

 

Seems to me, by your estimate, that dealer was offering you about 80% of guide....

------------------

 

But I'm pretty sure he said he had buyers in his store for the good stuff. But this was good stuff, keys (other than the IM Subby, back then at least). This wasn't "nearly everything."

 

And I forgot, there was also a VG- Daredevil 1 in the $500 Carbonaro mix, I forgot about that one! I knew there was another book in there and I still own that one. So that dealer probably figured he'd get his $1000 back from the best 4 books of the group, and the FF 48, IM/Subby 1 and ASM 100 (+ also the 20/25 cent cover price bronzies) were freebies. He was a good guy, maybe from somewhere in the mid-atlantic region.

 

OK, I'll admit, that was a particularly good day, I won't pretend that was the typical deal out there, but that was my benchmark.

 

[the blob]

As you yourself stated, you weren't into comics at that time, getting back into it on the very crest of the wave (1993) before it all came crashing down.

--------

 

True enough. It does seem like stuff was still percolating in 1993, but you could start to see dealers realizing they might have overordered on some of these new books. But in the early 80s comic stores around here would offer you 5 cents a book if you brought in a pristine set of FF 1 - 100 and ASM 1 - 100, but that certainly could have changed by the late 80's. I remember a guy camping out in front of my local childhood comic shop so pizzed off at the lowball offer he got that he was giving comics away. I picked up a big stack of Byrne X-Men off him, but didn't want to be greedy and pizz him off further (as he was rather large). I should have gone for his Spideys too! I guess these stores got such a steady stream of people bringing in stuff they didn't think was worth anything they could pay whatever they wanted. My childhood LCS apparently got a big box of SA every week walking in from the projects a few blocks away as some mother with her son in prison would finally get tired of keeping his comics in the closet waiting for him to get out or some junkie would bring it in, so why would he pay anything? Mind you, he also charged full guide and overgraded too! (Other than the stuff that went in the 3/$1 box)

[the blob]

I just wanted to establish we were talking about the same Mike Carbonaro.

 

Cause, you know, to me...someone who has dealt with him off and on for maybe a dozen years now....it's a tad incredulous to see Carbonaro give away high grade, hot keys for a fraction of guide in 1993.

 

But that's just me....

-----------

 

Before he started running his own shows (and thus no longer essentially paying for his own tables) he was in the business of selling comics so that he would have less to drag home and not accumulating a warehouse of inventory to sell at shows and on the internet. His selling practices changed a lot when he became a show promoter.

 

Although his dad was still (and still is) a good guy willing to give a good deal when Mike wasn't hovering over him. I think Mike knows this as I haven't seen his dad working a table for a while, though I did run into him at a show last year (he's also friends with one of my neighbors oddly enough).