Jerry's All Star #8 better pics

[Foolkiller]

Bob --

 

if you have emails from CGC that help to verify your version of the events, please post them. Otherwise, this is just rambling nonsense, and isn't really helping your credibility. If you want the boards support to get riled up against CGC so that presumably action can be taken, you need to have some evidence.

 

I trust Borock's version of the events, but obviously, we should be willing to view contradictory evidence.

[Doohickamabob]

From what i gather, now some fun-loving boys (and maybe even girls) here are now expressing concepts re meth dealing, go for it. That is when I stopped reading ... I had a phone conversation with Steve Borock May 15 at 2:55 PM. Have not (yet) read his post here, which he mentioned to me, too much other garbage to wade thru to find it, so why bother.

 

Steve's message occurs before the message that uses the meth-dealing analogy. So it would follow that you had the opportunity to read it. Here it is again:

 

"This is no rumor and, since I was at CGC at the time, I know what happened to the All-Star 22 & 7. Btw...the person who damaged the books no longer works there. Bob was credited the entire cost of the grading fees for all the Bails All-Stars that were sent in, just over $2,000.00. CGC then owned the All-Star 22 out right and Bob got to retain the All-Star 7. The 7 is a nice book, but has a piece of tape on it now. I know this because I had to make 2 seperate calls to Bob both times the damage happened. That is CGC policy: To call if there is ever a problem with a clients book or books and try to make it right by them. I have no clue why they returned the All-Star 22 two+ years later. As far as I know, the book was theirs and they never had to send it back to Bob."

 

The upshot was he said to me verbally we supposedly settled up re the slab bill with All Star #7 and #22 before San Diego Comicon of 2007. Patently untrue - as in false testimony, will not use the L word (yet).

 

Which part is untrue: That the slab bill was settled, or that it was settled before the 2007 Comic-Con? What is the timeline for this entire dispute? Note that Steve's message does not say that everything was settled prior to the 2007 Comic-Con, only that he had had prior communication with you about the damage.

 

1) The All Star #7 was first shown to me having tape on the front cover at San Diego Comicon July 2007. There were no prior phone conversations regarding it. Period. Steve informed me then, at San Diego, of the tape on cover to #7 during Wednesday afternoon just a couple hours before Preview Opening coming up at 6 PM.

 

Steve's message says he made two separate calls to you each time the damage happened.

 

2) The All Star #22 CGC 7.0 FVF was first brought up as still being in CGC possession just last Sept 2009 when people at CGC informed Jean Bails they still had in at their HQ. It was promptly mailed to me then. No other conversation ever occurred regarding it prior to then, a little over two years later at the time. If it was supposedly being used to "settle" a slab bill, why not mention it then to Jean Bails or myself, rather than now some 7-8 months later?

 

If there was a long-standing disagreement/dispute about the comics and CGC's responsibility to compensate for damage, how is it possible that you did not have any communication with them about the All Star #22? Did you forget they had it?

 

Here is a request: What's the exact timeline of everything that occurred here? How about laying it out, month by month: When were the books submitted, when did you get (or not get) phone calls, when did you get the books back, when did you discover the damage, when did you call or send or receive emails from CGC, and so on.

 

If you're building a case, then you should have this stuff documented anyway. That includes every financial transaction in this matter: Did you pay any money to CGC? Did they pay any money to you? Did they bill you? Did they tell you that they were waiving their bill? Etc,

 

3) The All Star #8 was firmly attached when it was delivered to CGC June 2007. There was no, as in zero, conversation with CGC once the All Stars were delivered by me to CGC HQ until they were handed back to me at San Diego Comicon the following month. I let them do their thing. Period.

 

Steve Borock's message stated, "I had to make 2 seperate calls to Bob both times the damage happened. That is CGC policy: To call if there is ever a problem with a clients book or books and try to make it right by them." But you're saying that Steve Borock never called you. So which of you is right?

 

It was Matt Nelson who very slowly and carefully cracked it open, slowly opened the cover up, and he & I both saw the hole in there (which I learned about for the very first time). I wonder if he would commit said truth to writing that the hole (which had not been there at the time I delivered the books) was (now) there when he cracked the slab open.

 

Why don't you ask him? Let's hear what Matt Nelson has to say -- and where and when he cracked it open. By the way, why did you crack open the slab on All Star #8 to begin with? I mean, if you didn't see the hole until that moment, what was your purpose in opening the slab -- did you send the comics to CGC just to find out the grade and then un-slab them?

 

My position, which has not altered, and never will, is, and remains, that if this (unknown) CGC employee had not accidentally forced open the #8, tearing paper off the cover in the process, the glue could have been removed. We shall never know what could have been done

 

If you think the glue could have been removed, doesn't this raise the question of why the glue was there to begin with? Also, doesn't it raise the question of why you bothered to have the book slabbed? I thought we established that the staple had already been popped to a lesser extent -- hence the glue. Whatever the case, if you had been able to remove the glue, how would that have improved the comic? It would still be a restored copy, as it has very obvious and unnecessary color touch on the wrist of the figure near the lower staple.

 

When it was opened from the front, it was forced, tearing cover paper.

 

Isn't it also possible that the paper was weak around the staple and the tear occurred during the ordinary handling of the comic that happens with standard inspection (of interior wrap, etc.)? Since you have not provided us with any photographic evidence of the comic prior to the tearing (other than a single scan in which the staple is hard to see), and since you have not provided us with any corroborating testimony from others who viewed or handled the comic prior to CGC submission, why do you expect us to take your word for it when you say the condition was strong? It would stand to reason that a comic with a glued lower staple had structural issues at that spot.

 

What most of you have not yet seen are the emails between CGC going back & forth with myself and Jean Bails. There are many contradictions in their various stories. Maybe it is time to post those emails as well.

 

Wait -- now you're saying you've had numerous emails with CGC. But previously you have underlined a lack of communication with CGC. Does this mean that when you say "conversation" you only mean verbal conversation, but not email conversation?

 

This is why you need to detail EVERYTHING about the communication and timeline. Lay it out step-by-step: Each event in the transaction, each communication (verbal or email), every financial detail, and all of this in a chronological order, with names and dates. If you have witnesses who support your version of events, provide the names and get their corroborating testimony -- or don't mention them at all.

 

The reason I say all of this is that everything you're writing is more confusing and self-contradictory (on your part) than it is illuminating or convincing. As many have said here, you aren't making your case, you're breaking your case.

 

On top of all that, I would like to point out that you keep avoiding answering some very basic questions about this situation. I have asked these questions on three separate occasions now, and you have not answered.

 

(1) Where are you getting the figure of $10,000 for the All Star #8? That is the amount you are demanding that CGC pay out. How do you estimate this? I have already provided details of past sales of the All Star #8 on the Heritage Auction site. Restored copies that grade much higher than your copy only go for $2,000 to $4,000. Your copy is a CGC 5.0 whether it has glue or not, as the color touch assures it will always fall into the restored category. So again, where are you getting this $10,000 figure? How did you calculate it, and what makes you think it's reasonable for you to demand such a high amount after, apparently, CGC has already credited you over $2,000?

 

(2) Why are you selling the All Star #8 for $10,000 on eBay, and yet not disclosing the damage that you've extensively complained about here? The photo you provide on your eBay site shows the scan that you've claimed is the "before" image of the comic -- the one without the popped staple damage. Basically you've got the comic listed as being in the state you claim it was in prior to the CGC submission, and there is nothing in your listing that even alludes to the dispute and damage with the comic. What are you going to do if somebody does in fact buy the comic from you on eBay -- turn them down? Why haven't you removed the listing or altered it, when it has been brought to your attention here already, and justifiably makes you look like a dishonest salesman? (eBay's listing policy is that all sales contain accurate information, and not be posted merely "for show" or other reasons unrelated to the purpose of conducting actual business.)

 

Again, I have asked you these questions three times, and you've provided no answer. This leads me to conclude you are willfully avoiding a sincere and open discussion. It's worth reminding you that you brought all of this up and made it everybody's business.

 

For reference:

BLBcomics: "When Steve Borock hand delivered the box of encapsulated All Stars to me at the San Diego Comicon that summer, CGC was right across the aisle from me that year in the Gold Silver Pavilion, he informed me CGC was prepared to offer a paltry $300 for the damage they acknowledge a CGC employee did to the #7. I scoffed at such a BS low ball amount. I said then, and still say now, CGC's insurance company should buy these two books from the estate of Jerry Bails. I am asking NOTHING for myself. Only justice for Jerry's widow Jean. CGC's insurance company should pay $1200 for the #7 and $10,000 for the #8.

[BLBcomics-migration]

Bob - some of us were just poking fun (at least I was), no intention of being malicious at all. However, I do find this quote hilarious: "have not (yet) read his post (Borock's) here, which he mentioned to me, too much other garbage to wade thru to find it, so why bother". When:

 

1. You should be last person to chastie people for not staying on topic.

 

2. Neglected to read perhaps the most important post of all by Borock and then discounting what he said? Strikes me as odd and just digs your hole even further. If they gave a refund I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to verfiy from their end?? If there are contradictions via email then why not post some proof otherwise this just goes around and around and gets no where.

 

 

 

1) was not chastising any one re not staying on topic -

 

The personal attacks aimed my way was wot I was referring to, and I was stupid enough to bite on those apples in the earlier part of that thread by responding. Silly me.

 

2) When I made jokes in that original Comics & Life thread, got jumped all over, the tangents going off in all sorts of directions, which began confusing those reading thru it, and I agree it became a waste of time. Hence, started this new one

 

3) When i clicked into CGC here earlier this afternoon, I began at the end, so to speak, the newest ones, going back one page at a time, as I began to orient myself as to what the haps wuz, got to the meth dealer BS, pondered them apples, and simply stopped reading.

 

Now that I know Steve's post is more towards the "beginning" of where i had left off this passion play last week, will read it shortly (see I read the newest post first)

 

However,

 

if you read what I wrote, I distinctly mentioned Steve and I talked on the phone on the 15th, Saturday, he mentioned what he had wrote. I have a memory, why read when I was already told by Steve B what it contained

 

I told him then I had not read this thread for a few days, would get to it Sunday as I am not obsessed with this, just righteously angry at what CGC had done to a couple of Jerry's books, as I prepped for a trip to an LA surgeon.

 

Hence, no need to dig thru all the BS posted by some persons here simply having some "fun" at my expense.

 

I told him then the concept of the #7 and the #22 being "used" on the slab fees was patently absurd, he is wrong, there had NEVER been any discussion to that effect, ever, and if necessary to say, if he sticks to those guns, is a liar.

 

Now, I do not use that word lightly, and I hope we come out of this scenario friends still

 

I am leaving out for LA tomorrow morning to see my original hip joint replacement surgeon Wednesday for some tests on whether or not I have to undergo more surgery, leaving for Omaha air port around 6 AM, time is fleeting right about now. I will be back Friday morning and will cheerfully post the email exchanges which started last September. This will entail printing off the entire slew of them, and organizing the thoughts.

 

CGC did not "buy" the #22, nor was there any phone calls about it being "damaged."

 

The FIRST time CGC mentioned they had #22 at their HQ was just last Sept/Oct 2009 informing Jean Bails it was there, when she emailed them re #8 and #7

 

The FIRST time I was informed re All Star #7 having tape on the cover was at San Diego Comicon the afternoon of Wednesday just a couple hours before Preview Night started. Period

 

There were ZERO phone calls to me when the damage happened to #7, and I have yet to be explained to me what supposedly happened to the #22

 

The FIRST time I discovered the All Star #8 has its problems was the same time span at San Diego Comicon when I saw the Purple Kiss of Death on it. When Matt Nelson cracked it open, we both saw the staple pull which looks like it is popped from the inside front.

 

It was when I saw the paper cover tear pull on the bottom staple of #8 at San Diego 2007 plus the mailing tape adhered to the front cover of #7 is when I informed Steve that CGC needs to buy these books,

 

and the slab fees THEN became part of the short discussion in that I said we figure out what would be fair prices for the two books, minus the slab fees

 

Slab fees, BTW, which I have NEVER seen an itemized bill on.

 

And #22 NEVER was part of ANY conversation until just several months ago.

 

When you look at the #8 in person, it clearly looks like some one forced it open at the bottom staple from the front, and I assume that was by accident. Not by me, nor any one I know at my end, which consisted of just two well known well-versed in handling nice Golden Age collectors before I hand delivered the All Stars to CGC HQ in Florida

 

Steve also told me on the phone May 15 CGC does not place "popped staple" info on their labels. I thought that odd, but not being an invested slabber person nor involved with all the nuances of how they do things, and also not caring, nor up on all the color codes, green being a new one to me, I let that concept slide, as I always assumed full disclosure of a books nuances were always on the label. Learned something new, I guess.

 

Will be reading what Steve wrote, as opposed to what he said on the phone, shortly

[BLBcomics-migration]

 

P.S. I sent in a book last year that was absolutely gorgeous, and came back to me as qualified. I know I didnt miss anything, but sh*t happens. Its amazing how people can slab books and make a hefty profit, then moan and groan when something accidental happens. I dont know if CGC really did this or not, but I think you to be a bit harsh. Personally you remind me of Vincent at Metropolis, take that as you like.

 

I like Vinnie, thanks for the compliment. I remember when he was junior partner with Mike C back in the day -:L)

 

This is NOT about the book being "qualified"

 

Rather, it is solely about the #8 being yanked too hard when it was opened from the front

 

No complaints on that note re having "a dab of glue, a touch of color" as Steve put it to me when I first looked upon the purple label

 

However, if it had never been yanked so hard by some CGC person, there was an excellent chance it could have been brought up by having the glue and perhaps even the color touch removed, by initial person to see it unslabbed Matt Nelson, or any number of other museum qualified conservators I know around the country

 

I came here harsh only after six months of trying to deal with this "behind the scenes", off the radar. They stone walled, I finally had enough, here we are. I am angry over this the way CGC has (not) handled this affair

 

I defy them to produce documents which would stand up in court as is NOW being touted they used the #7 and #22 to offset the slab costs

 

I said BS (spell out that word for the word used) to the slab costs at San Diego 2007 until they make proper restitution for the damage they did to the #8 - as in BUY THE BOOK from Jean Bails, which is the proper thing to do

[G.A.tor]

 

 

 

I like Vinnie, thanks for the compliment. I remember when he was junior partner with Mike C back in the day -:L)

 

This is NOT about the book being "qualified"

 

Rather, it is solely about the #8 being yanked too hard when it was opened from the front

 

No complaints on that note re having "a dab of glue, a touch of color" as Steve put it to me when I first looked upon the purple label

 

However, if it had never been yanked so hard by some CGC person, there was an excellent chance it could have been brought up by having the glue and perhaps even the color touch removed, by initial person to see it unslabbed Matt Nelson, or any number of other museum qualified conservators I know around the country

 

I came here harsh only after six months of trying to deal with this "behind the scenes", off the radar. They stone walled, I finally had enough, here we are. I am angry over this the way CGC has (not) handled this affair

 

I defy them to produce documents which would stand up in court as is NOW being touted they used the #7 and #22 to offset the slab costs

 

I said BS (spell out that word for the word used) to the slab costs at San Diego 2007 until they make proper restitution for the damage they did to the #8 - as in BUY THE BOOK from Jean Bails, which is the proper thing to do

bob, I like what you are trying to do for jean bails... but nothing, quite honestly, is going to come from you posting this on a cgc board... nothing...

 

you don't need to prove anything to anyone here...if you can prove it in a court of law, I am sure the lawyers of the board would recommend that... right

 

my advice would be to refrain from talking to "this" jury, our verdict is not relevant (and I believe you have already been given a verdict of your peers from what I have read, and it is not favorable)

 

just my

[BLBcomics-migration]

Bob --

 

if you have emails from CGC that help to verify your version of the events, please post them. Otherwise, this is just rambling nonsense, and isn't really helping your credibility. If you want the boards support to get riled up against CGC so that presumably action can be taken, you need to have some evidence.

 

I trust Borock's version of the events, but obviously, we should be willing to view contradictory evidence.

 

Mister Foolkiller

 

That is a reasonable request. One that I can tackle when I get back from LA Friday, like I wrote a couple posts back, have to see surgeon at Saint Vincent's Med Center on Wednesday there, leaving open Thursday in case further tests need to be done, then fly back Friday morning

 

There were no phone calls from Steve B re All Star 7 8 or 22 prior to the books being delivered to be at San Diego. Just the #7 was talked about by Steve to me re the damage with the tape prior to me looking at it

 

Zero discussion on #22 until last Sept/Oct 2009 when some one at CGC informed Jean Bails they still had #22, that it originally had been forgotten to bring it out to San Diego

 

And ZERO informing of the #8 until I saw the Purple Label on it

 

ALL Steve said about it when I queried him then at San Diego 2007 re #8 having a purple label was it had a small touch of color touch, a small dab of glue, at the bottom of the bottom staple. No mention of the tear pull which happened at CGC.

 

CGC never made a phone call to me, nor did they ever place anything in writing stating #7 and #22 were being used on the slab fees

 

If i had not descended into a pain induced hell for a couple years until I got my surgeries, this would have been dealt with back then. It took me regaining my brain and repair & healing my hip joints Oct 20 2009 before I was able to deal with much of anything.

 

 

 

 

[BLBcomics-migration]

From what i gather, now some fun-loving boys (and maybe even girls) here are now expressing concepts re meth dealing, go for it. That is when I stopped reading ... I had a phone conversation with Steve Borock May 15 at 2:55 PM. Have not (yet) read his post here, which he mentioned to me, too much other garbage to wade thru to find it, so why bother.

 

Steve's message occurs before the message that uses the meth-dealing analogy. So it would follow that you had the opportunity to read it. Here it is again:

 

"This is no rumor and, since I was at CGC at the time, I know what happened to the All-Star 22 & 7. Btw...the person who damaged the books no longer works there. Bob was credited the entire cost of the grading fees for all the Bails All-Stars that were sent in, just over $2,000.00. CGC then owned the All-Star 22 out right and Bob got to retain the All-Star 7. The 7 is a nice book, but has a piece of tape on it now. I know this because I had to make 2 seperate calls to Bob both times the damage happened. That is CGC policy: To call if there is ever a problem with a clients book or books and try to make it right by them. I have no clue why they returned the All-Star 22 two+ years later. As far as I know, the book was theirs and they never had to send it back to Bob."

 

The upshot was he said to me verbally we supposedly settled up re the slab bill with All Star #7 and #22 before San Diego Comicon of 2007. Patently untrue - as in false testimony, will not use the L word (yet).

 

Which part is untrue: That the slab bill was settled, or that it was settled before the 2007 Comic-Con? What is the timeline for this entire dispute? Note that Steve's message does not say that everything was settled prior to the 2007 Comic-Con, only that he had had prior communication with you about the damage.

 

Please bear with me as I am not familiar with the way CGC's quote system works. I am going to make my comments here in BOLD, hope it works out OK

 

The slab bill was never "settled."

 

Much less settled prior to Comicon 2007

 

He made ZERO communications with me prior to Comicon. He told me the tale of the #7 being damaged with the tape AT Comicon 2007, explaining then how it happened

 

there was ZERO conversation re #22 being at CGC HQ until Jean Bails was informed it had been forgotten there all this time.

 

I repeat, there was ZERO communication re #7 and #8 until Wed Preview day of Comicon 2007. The FIRST time #22 came into the discussion was Sept/Oct 2009

 

 

1) The All Star #7 was first shown to me having tape on the front cover at San Diego Comicon July 2007. There were no prior phone conversations regarding it. Period. Steve informed me then, at San Diego, of the tape on cover to #7 during Wednesday afternoon just a couple hours before Preview Opening coming up at 6 PM.

 

Steve's message says he made two separate calls to you each time the damage happened.

 

No, those phone conversations NEVER happened

 

2) The All Star #22 CGC 7.0 FVF was first brought up as still being in CGC possession just last Sept 2009 when people at CGC informed Jean Bails they still had in at their HQ. It was promptly mailed to me then. No other conversation ever occurred regarding it prior to then, a little over two years later at the time. If it was supposedly being used to "settle" a slab bill, why not mention it then to Jean Bails or myself, rather than now some 7-8 months later?

 

If there was a long-standing disagreement/dispute about the comics and CGC's responsibility to compensate for damage, how is it possible that you did not have any communication with them about the All Star #22? Did you forget they had it?

 

In the craziness of Wednesday Preview night at Comicon, just a couple hours before the public was let in, I did not double check the inventory in the box Steve hand delivered to me. I trusted they were all there. Silly me.

 

I was also re-acting to learning about the tape on #7 as well as the tear pull at the #8 bottom staple, which were two huge blows to take in

 

Hence, there was no "forgetting" re #22. I was very surprised to learn from Jean Bails CGC still had #22 in their possession.

 

Here is a request: What's the exact timeline of everything that occurred here? How about laying it out, month by month: When were the books submitted, when did you get (or not get) phone calls, when did you get the books back, when did you discover the damage, when did you call or send or receive emails from CGC, and so on.

 

If you're building a case, then you should have this stuff documented anyway. That includes every financial transaction in this matter: Did you pay any money to CGC? Did they pay any money to you? Did they bill you? Did they tell you that they were waiving their bill? Etc,

 

Yes, I will get a time line nailed down upon my return from flying out to LA tomorrow morning, leaving out 6 AM to see surgeon as I might have to be cut open again

 

Did you pay any money to CGC? NO

Did they pay any money to you? NO

Did they bill you? NO

Did they tell you that they were waiving their bill? Etc, NO

 

 

3) The All Star #8 was firmly attached when it was delivered to CGC June 2007. There was no, as in zero, conversation with CGC once the All Stars were delivered by me to CGC HQ until they were handed back to me at San Diego Comicon the following month. I let them do their thing. Period.

 

Steve Borock's message stated, "I had to make 2 seperate calls to Bob both times the damage happened. That is CGC policy: To call if there is ever a problem with a clients book or books and try to make it right by them." But you're saying that Steve Borock never called you. So which of you is right?

I am.

 

There were ZERO phone calls from ANY CGC person re ANY damage to ANY of Jerry Bails All Star Comics prior to being handed the box by Steve B at San Diego 2007 on Wednesday afternoon

 

Not on #7, #8 or #22

 

Nada

 

It was Matt Nelson who very slowly and carefully cracked it open, slowly opened the cover up, and he & I both saw the hole in there (which I learned about for the very first time). I wonder if he would commit said truth to writing that the hole (which had not been there at the time I delivered the books) was (now) there when he cracked the slab open.

 

Why don't you ask him? Let's hear what Matt Nelson has to say -- and where and when he cracked it open. By the way, why did you crack open the slab on All Star #8 to begin with? I mean, if you didn't see the hole until that moment, what was your purpose in opening the slab -- did you send the comics to CGC just to find out the grade and then un-slab them?

 

I have recounted a lot of this stuff already, lost in the earlier thread, I imagine

 

After Steve B walked back across the aisle from my booth to his, Matt Nelson just happened to be walking by a couple minutes later

 

I said to Matt, "You take glue and color touch off books?"

 

he said, Yes, that is my business

 

I said, Well, I think I have some biz for you then. Steve B just informed me a couple minutes ago there is a dab of glue and a touch of color at the bottom staple of this All Star #8

 

Matt then took the slab, cracked it opened, and we both looked as he slowly opened the cover, and I was shocked to see the hole at the staple, and inside cover paper now adhered to the glue, tear pulled off just recently, by force.

 

 

My position, which has not altered, and never will, is, and remains, that if this (unknown) CGC employee had not accidentally forced open the #8, tearing paper off the cover in the process, the glue could have been removed. We shall never know what could have been done

 

If you think the glue could have been removed, doesn't this raise the question of why the glue was there to begin with? Also, doesn't it raise the question of why you bothered to have the book slabbed? I thought we established that the staple had already been popped to a lesser extent -- hence the glue. Whatever the case, if you had been able to remove the glue, how would that have improved the comic? It would still be a restored copy, as it has very obvious and unnecessary color touch on the wrist of the figure near the lower staple.

 

Glue can be removed.

 

"Why it was there" it was there is a different question

 

No one noticed the couple lines at the wrist of the figure until pointed out by some one here last week or so.

 

Bottom line is the book was opened with too much force by some one at CGC in their receiving area, pull tearing the paper of the interior of the cover of the book at said staple, causing further tearing in as seen in the better pics taken at the beginning of this thread.

 

When it was opened from the front, it was forced, tearing cover paper.

 

Isn't it also possible that the paper was weak around the staple and the tear occurred during the ordinary handling of the comic that happens with standard inspection (of interior wrap, etc.)? Since you have not provided us with any photographic evidence of the comic prior to the tearing (other than a single scan in which the staple is hard to see), and since you have not provided us with any corroborating testimony from others who viewed or handled the comic prior to CGC submission, why do you expect us to take your word for it when you say the condition was strong? It would stand to reason that a comic with a glued lower staple had structural issues at that spot.

 

Fair questions

 

I made large scans of front and back of all the All Stars. Did not know back then anything further needed to be done. Had looked at the #8, it looked OK to me, did not do a black light check on any of them, once the decision was made to fly down to Florida and let the "experts" take over per so many here urging me to do same

 

Mark Edmonds inspected a lot of the All Stars the night he came thru. There is another who does not yet need to be brought into this.

 

Mark is in agreement the ALL Star 8 was strong at both ends, we never opened it up enough to force any thing on it. Comes from many decades of handling "big" books in all kinds of conditions. You handle them slowly and very carefully. The glue was so well done underneath the cover, it was never spotted prior

 

What most of you have not yet seen are the emails between CGC going back & forth with myself and Jean Bails. There are many contradictions in their various stories. Maybe it is time to post those emails as well.

 

Wait -- now you're saying you've had numerous emails with CGC. But previously you have underlined a lack of communication with CGC. Does this mean that when you say "conversation" you only mean verbal conversation, but not email conversation?

 

BOB: There were a flurry of emails back Sept thru about Jan 2010 or so, would have to pull them out, which I will do once I get back from LA

 

This is why you need to detail EVERYTHING about the communication and timeline. Lay it out step-by-step: Each event in the transaction, each communication (verbal or email), every financial detail, and all of this in a chronological order, with names and dates. If you have witnesses who support your version of events, provide the names and get their corroborating testimony -- or don't mention them at all.

 

BOB: Which I will do when I get back from LA in a few days

 

The reason I say all of this is that everything you're writing is more confusing and self-contradictory (on your part) than it is illuminating or convincing. As many have said here, you aren't making your case, you're breaking your case.

BOB: I do not see where I have been contradictory, rather, I agree parts have been confusing, was being pulled in quite a few directions, but will time line it, yes

 

On top of all that, I would like to point out that you keep avoiding answering some very basic questions about this situation. I have asked these questions on three separate occasions now, and you have not answered.

 

(1) Where are you getting the figure of $10,000 for the All Star #8? That is the amount you are demanding that CGC pay out. How do you estimate this? I have already provided details of past sales of the All Star #8 on the Heritage Auction site. Restored copies that grade much higher than your copy only go for $2,000 to $4,000. Your copy is a CGC 5.0 whether it has glue or not, as the color touch assures it will always fall into the restored category. So again, where are you getting this $10,000 figure? How did you calculate it, and what makes you think it's reasonable for you to demand such a high amount after, apparently, CGC has already credited you over $2,000?

 

BOB: They are just NOW saying they "credited" me with the slab bill.

 

This is all NEW to the conversational mix.

 

Does not appear in earlier emails which have not appeared here as of yet.

 

I was expecting them to make a counter offer, to settle this proper, rather, they stone walled for a long time.

 

(2) Why are you selling the All Star #8 for $10,000 on eBay, and yet not disclosing the damage that you've extensively complained about here? The photo you provide on your eBay site shows the scan that you've claimed is the "before" image of the comic -- the one without the popped staple damage. Basically you've got the comic listed as being in the state you claim it was in prior to the CGC submission, and there is nothing in your listing that even alludes to the dispute and damage with the comic. What are you going to do if somebody does in fact buy the comic from you on eBay -- turn them down? Why haven't you removed the listing or altered it, when it has been brought to your attention here already, and justifiably makes you look like a dishonest salesman? (eBay's listing policy is that all sales contain accurate information, and not be posted merely "for show" or other reasons unrelated to the purpose of conducting actual business.)

 

BOB: Simple. It is up there on eBay. I have rejected all offers to date. Yes, turned them down, there is no dishonesty here.

 

I never thought I would have to go up onto this talking board in the first place. Yet, here we are.

 

CGC never mentioned on the label there was any of this damage, hence, it does not exist, right? They are the "be-all, end-all" of the final say in comics grading, right?

 

Again, I have asked you these questions three times, and you've provided no answer. This leads me to conclude you are willfully avoiding a sincere and open discussion. It's worth reminding you that you brought all of this up and made it everybody's business.

 

BOB: and I apologize if I missed the gist of your earlier posts on this. Mayhaps I was hung up on banana pudding, among other fascinating subjects. Willful avoidance, not at all

 

For reference:

BLBcomics: "When Steve Borock hand delivered the box of encapsulated All Stars to me at the San Diego Comicon that summer, CGC was right across the aisle from me that year in the Gold Silver Pavilion, he informed me CGC was prepared to offer a paltry $300 for the damage they acknowledge a CGC employee did to the #7. I scoffed at such a BS low ball amount. I said then, and still say now, CGC's insurance company should buy these two books from the estate of Jerry Bails. I am asking NOTHING for myself. Only justice for Jerry's widow Jean. CGC's insurance company should pay $1200 for the #7 and $10,000 for the #8.

BOB: Yes, I am here in CGC Land, began trying to have a serious discussion of all this which got side-lined by all the extraneous stuff injected, which, like I wrote earlier, I, in hindsight, foolishly bit into

 

Am all for a serious discussion. Is there anything I left out?

 

Will work on the time line when i get back from LA, and dig into the earlier emails between CGC and myself which preceded us landing here

 

Robert Beerbohm

www.BLBcomics.com

[BLBcomics-migration]

CGC damaged both the books mentioned and they have never made a move to make this "right"

 

A pretty well verified rumor is now being started that CGC wiped out over $2000 in grading fees to make this "right".

OK, just around to reading thru parts of this thread until I got to Steve post

 

 

This is no rumor and, since I was at CGC at the time, I know what happened to the All-Star 22 & 7. Btw...the person who damaged the books no longer works there.

 

Bob was credited the [font:Arial Black]entire[/font] cost of the grading fees for [font:Arial Black]all[/font] the Bails All-Stars that were sent in, just over $2,000.00. CGC then [font:Arial Black]owned[/font] the All-Star 22 out right and Bob got to retain the All-Star 7. The 7 is a nice book, but has a piece of tape on it now.

 

I know this because I had to make 2 seperate calls to Bob both times the damage happened. That is CGC policy: To call if there is ever a problem with a clients book or books and try to make it right by them.

 

I have no clue why they returned the All-Star 22 two+ years later. As far as I know, the book was theirs and they never had to send it back to Bob.

 

This is patently untrue.

 

Steve NEVER called me re damage to ANY of the All Stars

 

My first encounter learning about any damage was Wednesday afternoon SD Comicon 2007

 

My query be now, what was the supposed "damage" to the #22 which is why it supposedly became theirs?

 

This is BS

 

I have never seen a "credit" on any of this that Steve presents as supposed "fact"

[Silver Surfer]

 

I have never seen a "credit" on any of this that Steve presents as supposed "fact"

 

Just curious Bob have you ever submitted a book to CGC for slabbing ever since? Maybe there is a standing credit sitting there for you?

[Aman619]

you didnt see a credit, but did you ever pay to slab any of the All Stars you sent to CGC? Did you get an invoice? If you got one and never paid it but received all the slabs back (minus the 7 and 22) looks like you got a credit of 2000. You may have wanted more, but to date you have received 2000 in from CGC toward the damage.

 

And, the book cover was glued on (plus retouch). Nots its been disconnected from the book at the staple. So just glue it back together! I submit that the 'hole' you are so upset about is the reason the book was glued shut in the first place. Comics with pulled staples often result in the kind of long open hole you are upsetting about,

 

Glue it back and you are back to square one with a restored AS7 PLUS 2K in fees you never paid and CGC isnt asking for .

[Aman619]

If you incur service fees, and never pay it, and they stop asking for the bill to be paid, either they have a lousy bookkeeping dept, or you received a make good credit.

 

why am I posting about this?

[BLBcomics-migration]

 

I have never seen a "credit" on any of this that Steve presents as supposed "fact"

 

Just curious Bob have you ever submitted a book to CGC for slabbing ever since? Maybe there is a standing credit sitting there for you?

 

I had never had any thing slabbed prior, nor since. I am into this hobby for the "art", not the "investment." The comics market will sink "under water" like the housing bubble. Tis a force of nature being accelerated of late. I like tulips as well -

 

This thing they did to All Star #7 and #8 just boils my blood. It is no longer about the money.

 

And I have YET to be informed of the supposed damage to #22, said reputed damage being new on this passion play set.

[BLBcomics-migration]

you didnt see a credit, but did you ever pay to slab any of the All Stars you sent to CGC? Did you get an invoice? If you got one and never paid it but received all the slabs back (minus the 7 and 22) looks like you got a credit of 2000. You may have wanted more, but to date you have received 2000 in from CGC toward the damage.

 

And, the book cover was glued on (plus retouch). Nots its been disconnected from the book at the staple. So just glue it back together! I submit that the 'hole' you are so upset about is the reason the book was glued shut in the first place. Comics with pulled staples often result in the kind of long open hole you are upsetting about,

 

Glue it back and you are back to square one with a restored AS7 PLUS 2K in fees you never paid and CGC isnt asking for .

 

There is cover paper pulled off now on top of where the dab of glue resides.

 

I think maybe the bottom staple must have been originally loose a bit, but it HAD integrity, that much I know from having had looked at it prior taking it to Florida. The staple has always been very visible, just not in my pics I first took.

 

It is still attached from the back

 

It was forcibly torn off its moorings

 

CGC still has an outstanding balance on the #8 to settle up on

 

[Doohickamabob]

Am all for a serious discussion. Is there anything I left out? Will work on the time line when i get back from LA, and dig into the earlier emails between CGC and myself which preceded us landing here[/b]

 

Well, I guess I will have to say "Thanks for the thorough response." A few follow-up questions/comments though: It is quite unclear based on reading this thread what kinds of communications you've had with CGC, what you've said, how they've responded, etc.

 

This is the first I've heard you say that the $10,000 figure is merely an opening salvo in a negotiation. In that case, I think it's been established that the $10,000 figure is high enough that it would probably turn off CGC from wanting to counter-offer, as I believe it is at least 2X more than the comic was likely to be worth on the open market, even prior to any damage.

 

Another comment is that I think you still haven't made clear your motivation for keeping an active eBay listing that does not reflect the condition of the item for sale.

 

Finally, I will say that whether or not you have a case, I think your best option would be to gather all documentation and create a detailed timeline and fact-by-fact, figure-by-figure explanation of everything that has occurred -- all in one place, and as clear and easy to understand as you can possibly make it. Perhaps you should consider shutting down this entire discussion and commence attempting to communicate with CGC. The whole scenario does look pretty sloppy on everybody's side.

[BLBcomics-migration]

Am all for a serious discussion. Is there anything I left out? Will work on the time line when i get back from LA, and dig into the earlier emails between CGC and myself which preceded us landing here[/b]

 

Well, I guess I will have to say "Thanks for the thorough response." A few follow-up questions/comments though: It is quite unclear based on reading this thread what kinds of communications you've had with CGC, what you've said, how they've responded, etc.

 

This is the first I've heard you say that the $10,000 figure is merely an opening salvo in a negotiation. In that case, I think it's been established that the $10,000 figure is high enough that it would probably turn off CGC from wanting to counter-offer, as I believe it is at least 2X more than the comic was likely to be worth on the open market, even prior to any damage.

 

Another comment is that I think you still haven't made clear your motivation for keeping an active eBay listing that does not reflect the condition of the item for sale.

 

Finally, I will say that whether or not you have a case, I think your best option would be to gather all documentation and create a detailed timeline and fact-by-fact, figure-by-figure explanation of everything that has occurred -- all in one place, and as clear and easy to understand as you can possibly make it. Perhaps you should consider shutting down this entire discussion and commence attempting to communicate with CGC. The whole scenario does look pretty sloppy on everybody's side.

 

Sloppy on all sides?

 

yes, i agree

 

me, had to contend with surgeries both on myself and my oldest daughter Kati who had brain surgery just 7 weeks ago, much less my younger daughter Rochelle who had just gotten back in 2007 damaged from being in the US Army in Afghanistan

 

Lots on my plate

 

A coherent time line is forthcoming once I get back from LA -

 

I took the eBay listing down. I had placed it up there with no intention of selling it until after this has been resolved with CGC

 

And most all of what I wrote to you in response was actually in previous posts, both on this thread and the Comics & Life brou-ha-ha thread. Lost in the shuffle of dealing with banana pudding and what-not

 

now, off to sleep, am getting up in 5 hours to catch a plane.

 

Thanks for your serious questions, and I apologize for missing your previous queries

 

bob

[Aman619]

 

BEFORE:

 

 

 

 

AFTER:

[/img]

 

 

Bobs right! Up to a point. In reviewing the pictures, BEFORE and AFTER, the cover has been pulled off the staple on this book. Definitely so.

 

However, there does not appear to be any extra ripping of the cover in these images. The spine previously had deep rips extending to the back cover. These were glued over, and are still ripped.

 

Theres also a visible 1/8" rip onto the front cover into the hand in the art. But that front rip was ALWAYS there! You can see it in the retouched lines on the hand in the BEFORE pic. You can see it is still the same size and length.

 

 

 

 

Bob--- I posted you before and after pictures earlier. Maybe you glossed over them. But look at the shape and size of the hole. they are identical BEFORE and AFTER. Se how in the bottom AFTER picture the hole looks like a mouse going to the right? (The bump on the staple is the head, and the rip if the tail running upwards.)

 

Now look at the BEFORE. That same exact "mouse" shape is there, only the "hole" appears smaller because its been glued near the staple, and the size and shape of the staple "fills in" part of the hole.

 

Yes someone at CGC probably pulled the glue loose making it possible to open the front cover to view the entire hole, free from the staple/glue. But its an optical thing: the hole remained the same size and shape. The tail/rip is the same length and shape. All thats different now is that a restored book needs its staple glued back in place near the staple.

 

Ask Matt if $300 will cover it. Then write a check to CGC for all the slabbing fees so they can mail you a check back for damages. Then get some rest, spend a month in rehab, and come on back here in one piece you rascal you!

[Aman619]

rehab for your hip, of course....

[Arty]

You misquoted those pictures, I think. They are all AFTER pictures?

[Straw-Man]

Bob --

 

if you have emails from CGC that help to verify your version of the events, please post them. Otherwise, this is just rambling nonsense, and isn't really helping your credibility. If you want the boards support to get riled up against CGC so that presumably action can be taken, you need to have some evidence.

 

I trust Borock's version of the events, but obviously, we should be willing to view contradictory evidence.

 

Mister Foolkiller

 

That is a reasonable request. One that I can tackle when I get back from LA Friday, like I wrote a couple posts back, have to see surgeon at Saint Vincent's Med Center on Wednesday there, leaving open Thursday in case further tests need to be done, then fly back Friday morning

 

There were no phone calls from Steve B re All Star 7 8 or 22 prior to the books being delivered to be at San Diego. Just the #7 was talked about by Steve to me re the damage with the tape prior to me looking at it

 

Zero discussion on #22 until last Sept/Oct 2009 when some one at CGC informed Jean Bails they still had #22, that it originally had been forgotten to bring it out to San Diego

 

And ZERO informing of the #8 until I saw the Purple Label on it

 

ALL Steve said about it when I queried him then at San Diego 2007 re #8 having a purple label was it had a small touch of color touch, a small dab of glue, at the bottom of the bottom staple. No mention of the tear pull which happened at CGC.

 

CGC never made a phone call to me, nor did they ever place anything in writing stating #7 and #22 were being used on the slab fees

 

If i had not descended into a pain induced hell for a couple years until I got my surgeries, this would have been dealt with back then. It took me regaining my brain and repair & healing my hip joints Oct 20 2009 before I was able to deal with much of anything.

 

on this, reasonable minds can differ.

 

 

 

 

[buttock]

Not sure why anyone is indulging this nonsense.

 

Bob is being delusional that the AS8 is worth $10K, and that CGC has any obligation to buy it. But looking at his Ebay store inventory, it's clear that this isn't Bob's only delusion.

 

If Bob were serious about getting the $$, he'd hire an attorney -- as any reasonable person would do. Instead, he's trying to 'guilt' (at best) or ransom (at worst) CGC with these inane threads. Possibly because he sees he has no legal recourse, but nothing to lose by asking an exorbitant price in a pathetic attempt at extortion.

 

Let it go. Bob, if you feel you've got a leg to stand on then sack up and get an attorney. But quit the petulant passive-aggressive whining.