Is the new Overstreet out yet??

[awe4one]

To call these true variants is a misconception of what a variant is in relation to their demand in the hobby.

 

Jim

 

There's your mistake. The definition of a variant has NOTHING to do with demand or price or any aspect of the market. Only production matters.

 

Yes...but people are trying to call variants those that do not demand the priviledge These foreign editions being one.

 

Vraiants used to refer to a production line that offered a change in the comic that was offered in a the SAME geographic region. Canada, Britian, or any other region doesn't qualfy. That's a foreign edition.

 

Jim

[Lazyboy]

Here's a real variant...discuss...

 

 

Jim

 

Since there exists a corrected newsstand edition without the price circle, isn't that just an error and not a variant?

 

Where's RMA?

[awe4one]

Here's a real variant...discuss...

 

 

Jim

 

Since there exists a corrected newsstand edition without the price circle, isn't that just an error and not a variant?

 

Where's RMA?

 

Nah...it's just a variant since it was offered at most military bases. Error indicates a one off error. This was evidently printed in bulk and distributed to multiple areas. To add an error connotation is just complicating the issue.

 

But comic collectors can be anal retentive at times so who knows what they'll decide?

 

Jim

[RockMyAmadeus]

Yes, and I can call my Batman #9 White Grape Juice, too...

 

At some point, WE MUST AGREE on definitions...lots and lots of them (like the definitions of the words I'm using in this sentence, for example)...or society becomes meaningless and dissolves.

 

Is that what you want? A puddle of society all over the floor...? Huh?

 

Aside from the whole variant brouhaha, what (it sounds like) you're saying is that we have to figure out what the denotative or dictionary definition is--or at least some authoritative something that we can all agree on so we can then be, more or less, on the same page.

 

Pre-cisely.

 

And that is what we're doing right now, as we hash this out....

 

But we mostly work out of connotative meanings, what words mean to us, our emotional or personal experience with a word or phrase (which may or may not have a connection to the denotative meaning). So a lot of the time we're not on the same page when we're communicating (and sometimes we think we are ).

 

It's important to remember that new words, and new definitions for words, are very, very infrequently the result of some sort of dedicated effort to invent them, but rather, come about because someone used it (either the new word, or its new definition), others heard/read/saw it, liked it, and it spread, organically, person to person, until it became a part of the vernacular.

 

Consider the word "gay", which is a perfect example. In Western civilization, particularly the United States, the original meaning of this word ("happy, carefree") has been entrely supplanted by a completely different meaning: homosexual.

 

Was that the result of Yale Literature professors sitting down and trying to invent new meanings to old words? Nope. It just...happened. It was first used (documentably) to refer to homosexuality in the 1920's; by the 1980's, it had completely and thoroughly supplanted the old definition.

 

If Oscar Wilde heard you refer to him as "gay", he would have thought you meant he was happy and carefree, and not a homosexual, because that word did not have that meaning at that time. But call nearly any man in America in the 21st century "gay", and he'll know you're calling him a homosexual.

 

So, then, if we are to consider the acceptibility of the new definitions of words, we have to consider the following two conditions:

 

1. Usage. Those who used it first in the context we're discussing, how did they use it, how did they understand it, and what did it mean to them in that same context? And, how has it continued to be used in the intervening time?

 

2. Logic. Does the word's new definition make sense, or is it too radical (or, in many cases, not radical enough) a departure from the old meaning?

 

The second condition may seem contradictory, but there is always underlying logic...strange though it may be...to a new word, or a new definition to an old word, being accepted by a society.

 

Language is arbitrary. There is no inherent connection between the word "variant" and a comic book. We create/assign that meaning and it evolves as you suggested with your organic comment. If we disagree on definitions I would say it is hyperbole to say society becomes meaningless and dissolves (as you suggest).

 

It is the logical endgame to the "well, that's what it means to YOU, but what do other people think?" type arguments. I wasn't using hyperbole (as I sometimes do) to illustrate the point. If people want to have words mean different things to them, that's not a bad thing. That's how languages evolve. But...if the rest of their respective civilization doesn't jump on the bandwagon and AGREE to those different definitions, they will never become accepted.

 

What relativists never seem to understand is that civilization is dependent on tacit agreement to near-infinite conditions, one of which is language and what words mean...will society collapse if the word "variant" isn't strictly defined in the context of comic books? No, of course not. It's merely one tiny brick in a colossal wall...but remove enough of those bricks....

 

1 + 1 = 2, because long ago, Western civilization en masse agreed that this was the best (so far) practical way to express certain concepts.

 

Prior to that, I + I = II, and V + V = X. That method of expressing those particular concepts was abandoned, because a better way (decimalization) was invented, and civilization agreed. There was no vote, no committee, no message board. Society simply agreed to it, the way societies do.

 

In other parts of the world, 1と1つは2つに匹敵する. (Forgive me if I express that incorrectly.) To Western eyes, those symbols are (mostly) meaningless, and useless for any purpose. But to the civilization which agreed to use those symbols to express those concepts, they have perfect meaning. If everyone "had their own definition" for everything, society would cease.

 

Communication comes about because of societal agreement on the meaning of symbols. Societal agreement comes about because of common usage and recognition of the ideal expression. The ideal expression is simply the best symbol or combination of symbols used (that is currently known) to express a concept.

 

I would suggest it becomes more difficult to communicate and that conflict arises. Which isn't inherently a bad thing. It depends on how we handle it, and what comes from it.

 

In conclusion, Hulk head hurt.

 

 

I could have discussions like this for days......

[RockMyAmadeus]

The Canadian "editions" are still a variant compared to the majority print run of the direct market (and US) edition though because the entire content of the book is the same except for the price and indicia being different.

 

So what do you call them if you don't call them a Canadian Newsstand Price variant?

 

 

Foreign editions. That's what they are. To say they are variants is diluting what a variant is in this hobby. They are no different then Brit editions. Same comic, different price on the cover. Made at the same time but distribured to different foreign regions.

 

To call these true variants is a misconception of what a variant is in relation to their demand in the hobby.

 

Jim

 

I tend to agree (as I did at STL, and especially as it concerns dilution of the word "variant"), but I have no real philosophical problem with calling them price variants in the United States.

 

In Canada, they can certainly retaliate by calling ours "American Price Variants"...

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Here's a real variant...discuss...

 

 

Jim

 

Since there exists a corrected newsstand edition without the price circle, isn't that just an error and not a variant?

 

Where's RMA?

 

Nah...it's just a variant since it was offered at most military bases. Error indicates a one off error. This was evidently printed in bulk and distributed to multiple areas. To add an error connotation is just complicating the issue.

 

But comic collectors can be anal retentive at times so who knows what they'll decide?

 

Jim

 

Wait a minute...

 

It's clearly an error of SOME type, because the prices are contradictory. It is self-evidently an error.

 

(thumbs u

[Jeffro.]

If a small cross section of comics have a significant but uniform difference from the majority of the print run it's a variant.

 

Of course it is. The small minority has a variation from the majority, so hence it is a variant. Semantic arguments are usually more fun than this.

 

Oy.

 

Come on, guys. Seriously.

 

Quantify your numbers, Roy.

 

Right. Like I said, let's call them error variations.

 

 

Why can't we just call them errors...?

 

:shrug:

 

Indeed, why can't we? When I was collecting sports cards back in the 80's, this was called an error. Not a variant

 

[thirdgreenham]

If a small cross section of comics have a significant but uniform difference from the majority of the print run it's a variant.

 

Of course it is. The small minority has a variation from the majority, so hence it is a variant. Semantic arguments are usually more fun than this.

 

Oy.

 

Come on, guys. Seriously.

 

Quantify your numbers, Roy.

 

Right. Like I said, let's call them error variations.

 

 

Why can't we just call them errors...?

 

:shrug:

 

Indeed, why can't we? When I was collecting sports cards back in the 80's, this was called an error. Not a variant

 

You would have to bring that up, wouldn't you.

[comicwiz]

To call these true variants is a misconception of what a variant is in relation to their demand in the hobby.

 

Jim

 

There's your mistake. The definition of a variant has NOTHING to do with demand or price or any aspect of the market. Only production matters.

 

+1

 

I just want to say that misconceptions brought up in this thread about distribution, intent and demand - they all have absolutely nothing to do with determining variants. While they're all important variables in arriving at a better understanding of why they captivate the interests of collectors, they are all afterthoughts as far as determining variants is concerned.

[comicwiz]

To call these true variants is a misconception of what a variant is in relation to their demand in the hobby.

 

Jim

 

There's your mistake. The definition of a variant has NOTHING to do with demand or price or any aspect of the market. Only production matters.

 

Variants refer to a production line that offered a change in the comic that was printed in a the SAME geographic region. Comics printed in Canada, Britian, or any other region doesn't qualfy. That's a foreign edition.

 

Jim

 

Fixed that for you

[ShieldAgent]

Here's a real variant...discuss...

 

 

Jim

 

this is an error.

 

The indicia is quite clear: $0.5 per copy in the US and $0.75 in Canada…in the Direct Market and $2.99 per Copy in the US and $4.25 in Canada…through the newsstand.

 

There are no price variants of this issue.

 

 

[comicwiz]

The Canadian "editions" are still a variant compared to the majority print run of the direct market (and US) edition though because the entire content of the book is the same except for the price and indicia being different.

 

So what do you call them if you don't call them a Canadian Newsstand Price variant?

 

 

Foreign editions. That's what they are. To say they are variants is diluting what a variant is in this hobby. They are no different then Brit editions. Same comic, different price on the cover. Made at the same time but distribured to different foreign regions.

 

To call these true variants is a misconception of what a variant is in relation to their demand in the hobby.

 

Jim

 

I tend to agree (as I did at STL, and especially as it concerns dilution of the word "variant"), but I have no real philosophical problem with calling them price variants in the United States.

 

In Canada, they can certainly retaliate by calling ours "American Price Variants"...

 

 

 

Look, I'll give you the philosophical aspect of falsely recognizing a book as something which goes contrary to research. For example, there has been a body of research which has existed since 1982, which documents underground comix printings. There is no mention of variant anywhere. IMHO, to start throwing around the term "variant" to describe a print run, an anomaly, irregularity, error or misprint of any kind would be ridiculous. That said, I am also open minded about noting these irregularities and new discoveries because it makes it possible to identify characteristics which may someday work towards filling in past research gaps. Just don't call them variants.

 

With regard to books printed by the mainstream comic publishers and as far as variants are concerned, as I've said earlier in this thread, the research is badly in need of revision. The collector and crowd sourced beliefs and understandings have become so badly convoluted that people in this very thread are still confusing the most basic premise of what constitutes a foreign edition.

[ShieldAgent]

you think the research needs revision because it dose not align with what you currently believe.

 

Why do you want your common foreign editions to be variants so badly?

 

Why do you ignore my definition of price variant? Is it because you cannot apply it to Canadian editions?

 

Perhaps I am still missing something here?

 

 

[comicwiz]

you think the research needs revision because it dose not align with what you currently believe.

 

Why do you want your common foreign editions to be variants so badly?

 

Why do you ignore my definition of price variant? Is it because you cannot apply it to Canadian editions?

 

Perhaps I am still missing something here?

 

 

Just stop with the price variant . I haven't once, talked about price variants (until now). Read what I said about why a revision is needed, don't put words into my mouth. I've already seen this Avengers comic in at least 3 threads, being talked about as a price variant and no one can come to any agreement on it. If there is any personal motivation in seeing revision to clear this up, it has everything to do with getting it right. And apparently, you have a problem with missing the point as I've already defined a foreign edition in a half dozen responses in this thread alone.

[Snake Eyes]

So...my head hurts at 8:00 in the morning and reading this thread...did not drink last night and now I feel like I have a hangover And I still wonder is the new Overstreet out yet???

[thirdgreenham]

It'll be interesting to see if what Troy McClure has to say in his report is going to be accepted as truth. The final say in what defines a variant. I think that there will definitely be people who have a strong belief already, and if their belief isn't in line with McClure's, then they'll denounce him, just as some have denounced others in this thread. We'll see, we'll see.

 

BTW, I know it's Jon McClure.

[greggy]

It'll be interesting to see if what Troy McClure has to say in his report is going to be accepted as truth. The final say in what defines a variant. I think that there will definitely be people who have a strong belief already, and if their belief isn't in line with McClure's, then they'll denounce him, just as some have denounced others in this thread. We'll see, we'll see.

 

BTW, I know it's Jon McClure.

F U

[comicwiz]

It'll be interesting to see if what Troy McClure has to say in his report is going to be accepted as truth. The final say in what defines a variant. I think that there will definitely be people who have a strong belief already, and if their belief isn't in line with McClure's, then they'll denounce him, just as some have denounced others in this thread. We'll see, we'll see.

 

BTW, I know it's Jon McClure.

 

Andy, I agree. Some of the hardest rallyers behind Jon's research will see it for what it is - an opportunity to inject new interest and excitement in the hobby. The people who want to remain stuck behind the research curve, aren't going to like it much. My only explanation for this mindset is they're probably happy to remain in auto-pilot mode. They've enjoyed the perks of having intimate knowledge, and perhaps even using it in opportunistic ways - maybe too often to their advantage as opposed to sharing it with newcomers. That's about to change, and for some of the ones who've already remarked as much in this thread, Doug Sulipa said it best in that article - “The comic-collecting world does not yet know this article is coming."

[seanfingh]

Guys, doesn't the word variant by definition (because it comes from the root "vary" or "to vary") mean that ANY noticeable difference makes it a variant?

 

No. Next question.

 

Why not? It varies from the original. How it varies, why it varies and whether it's collectible or not is an entirely different matter.

 

What is happening in this thread is that people are trying to pigeonhole the term variant when in fact it can't be pigeonholed because as different types of "variants" are produced that term becomes more and more broad to the point where it needs to be broken down into categories.

 

 

That is simply not true. You are trying to pigeonhole an intentionally overbroad definition that does not apply. I have a copy of a marvel comic (Warlock I think) that has the interior of a karate kid from the same time period. That is not a variant. It varies from what it is supposed to be, but it is not a variant. It is an error.

[Jeffro.]

It'll be interesting to see if what Troy McClure has to say in his report is going to be accepted as truth. The final say in what defines a variant. I think that there will definitely be people who have a strong belief already, and if their belief isn't in line with McClure's, then they'll denounce him, just as some have denounced others in this thread. We'll see, we'll see.

 

BTW, I know it's Jon McClure.

 

All I know is some people throw around the term "variant" far too easily and usually only when they want to try to wring out a few more bucks when selling their books. Usually on ebay.