My take on when the SilverAge ended (a Marvel view)

[VintageComics]

Okay, I will accept this entire argument, but why is it not GL/GA #76 then? Green Arrow is more of an anti-hero than hero at that point, and Adams/O'Neal are introducing realism to books...the first to do so.

 

Come on, Green Arrow an anti-hero?

 

 

Nice, level headed response.

 

I think it's fair to say that there was no real starting point and ending point as Watson said. There is a transition in the mentality of the reader and also in the writer.

 

For instance, Flash was the start of the SA with Showcase #4 but really, the SA wasn't set in stone until Marvel started publishing in 1961. After that there was no disputing it.

 

The Silver Surfer run from issue #1-18 preceded GL #76 by two years and it was very easily the end of something old and the start of something new. There hadn't been anything as emotional as the Surfer run up until that point.

 

I think it's fair to say that the bronze age began to illicit emotions from readers that weren't very prevalent in the Silver Age.

 

The bronze age was as much about a change of mood and attitude as it was content.

[Prince Namor]

ASM #68?

[JohnT]

Okay, I will accept this entire argument, but why is it not GL/GA #76 then? Green Arrow is more of an anti-hero than hero at that point, and Adams/O'Neal are introducing realism to books...the first to do so.

 

Come on, Green Arrow an anti-hero?

 

GL/GA 76, while an important book, is far more a bookend to the 60's than anything that heralded the 70's. The book was a familiar "Fight the Man" type storyline, with a hackneyed racial tone, and a very deep 60's vibe. It was GL and GA out to "change the world" like some radical hippies, rather than embracing the darkness and disillusionment that represented the 70's.

 

If GL/GA 76 was truly part of the BA, then GL would have let that murdering slumlord blow up the grenade (and himself), then GA would have dug a deep hole for him. Instead we get the usual "DA and cops come to save the day" SA ending. And that 60's era "let's go find ourselves and our country" prologue..

 

But like I said, GL/GA 76 is an extremely important book and run, as it clearly is the last gasp of the Silver Age, like a vestigial limb left over from the 60's.

 

JC, I agree with your take on the BA from the Marvel perspective, and I especially like your identification of the importance of the whole anti-hero thing and Conan 1, BUT you lose me when start talking about GL 76 as having clear ties to the SA with it's "hackneyed racial tone and very deep 60's vibe."

 

The SA had nothing to do with a 60's vibe. In fact, a 60's vibe was the antithesis of the SA, which had to do with idealistic, impossibly black and white heroism that became, by the mid 60's, an outdated throwback to a simpler time, and basically the albatross around the medium's neck. In response to this (and it's incredibly bad books), DC began writing stories about "relevant" issues of the day, blurring right and wrong, and questioning moral assumptions. In other words, for DC the BA started with it's embrace of the "60's vibe." The BA started when comic books finally, belatedly threw off their traditional take on heroes (super or otherwise) and brought them into the modern world.

 

The anti-hero movement was one spinoff of the move toward relevancy, becoming more prevelant as the 70's went on, but solidly a direct result of the "60's vibe." The BA is the Age of Relevancy, and the anti-hero movement was a subgenre thereof.

 

Back to beginnings: again, my take is that the BA mostly started in DC books in the late 60's. Prior to this, in the mid 60's and even a bit later, DC was still turning out incredibly stupid superhero junk that just kept getting sillier and sillier. Books like this:

 

 

This was the last gasp of the SA.

 

Then, in the late 60's, you started seeing--slowly at first but picking up steam--new "relevant" characters like Hawk and Dove, Bat Lash, Firehair, the Losers, Enemy Ace, Deadman, the Phantom Stranger, etc., and revamps of characters like Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Batman, and others. You saw the old horror books updated to feature edgy, creative stories that actually sought to scare. You even saw the first sword and socery book--more than a year before Conan would hit the stands. By the time GL 76 came along the BA was solidly forming, in my opinion, and the reason the book stands out is it was a beautiful book that dealt with drugs and won awards.

 

I'm not a big fan of Marvel from the late 60's, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the 60's themes started to show up in their books during this time as well. But ironically it was DC that started the ball rolling--ironic because they were getting their clock cleaned by Marvel in the creativity department for the second half of the SA. In 1967 it sure didn't look like a new creative wave would be coming out of the company, but by virtue of a boatload of new talent and a new editorial direction...it did.

[BradleyX2]

OK, now that we've determined that Amazing Spider-Man #121 started the Bronze Age, let's debate about what comic started the Copper Age!

 

 

 

[mica]

OK, now that we've determined that Amazing Spider-Man #121 started the Bronze Age, let's debate about what comic started the Copper Age!

 

 

 

Patience.

[2020-migration]

great thread

[Prince Namor]

OK, now that we've determined that Amazing Spider-Man #121 started the Bronze Age, let's debate about what comic started the Copper Age!

 

 

 

 

The Questprobe mini series.

[Point Five]

OK, now that we've determined that Amazing Spider-Man #121 started the Bronze Age, let's debate about what comic started the Copper Age!

 

 

 

 

The Questprobe mini series.

'Mazing Man #1.

 

[DrWatson]

OK, now that we've determined that Amazing Spider-Man #121 started the Bronze Age, let's debate about what comic started the Copper Age!

Contest of Champions #1.

[BradleyX2]

OK, now that we've determined that Amazing Spider-Man #121 started the Bronze Age, let's debate about what comic started the Copper Age!

Contest of Champions #1.

 

 

Not ROM #1?

[divad]

For example the Silver Age to me started over a span of about 5 years (1956-1961)

.

 

You can also suggest that the Bronze Age "started" over a span of 4-5 years (1970-1974/1975), which would've encompassed many of the first appearances referenced already.

 

My only issue isn't so much where the BA started as when it ended. You can easily make a point that it lasted into 1986 or so with titles like the Dark Knight and Watchmen, but that causes a problem with an overlap of the Copper Age, which is probably best defined by its many independent B&W titles, most notably Cerebus and TMNT (1979-1984).

 

Someone make a good case for when the BA stopped and the CA started.

 

Bronze age ended with X-Men 143, Fantastic Four 231, Avengers 200, Amazing Spider-Man 200 and Daredevil 167.

 

I'm flabbergasted - I can't believe I agree with both Watson and JC at the same time as to the end of the Bronze Age

 

[Prince Namor]

Just curious... How is ASM a copper book. Or, uh.. Why is it a copper book?

[Comicsarefun]

This has been a great discussion!

 

If anyone out there wants to really understand the Bronze Age, read Howard The Duck #3. That story just screams Bronze.

 

The hero is a sarcastic talking duck (ultimate anti-hero). The story is about Kung-Fu. The villain is killed in the end.

 

Love it!

[DrWatson]

OK, now that we've determined that Amazing Spider-Man #121 started the Bronze Age, let's debate about what comic started the Copper Age!

Contest of Champions #1.

Not ROM #1?

Hell no.

[the blob]

The Golden Age continued along until superheroes began to fall out of favor. This time saw the rise in popularity of diverse genres; westerns, romance, sci-fi, horror, etc. The superhero was in remission.

---------------------

 

Could someone humor me and give me an idea of the print-runs/circulation of Superman, Batman, Detective, Action, Adventure and Wonder Woman and the umpteen Captain Marvel titles (which I guess ened in '53 due to legal dispute issues, not lack of sales?) from 1948-55 when superhero comics are said to be in decline? I understand the market could no longer support 100+ super hero titles from 15 publishers (or so it seemed) like in 1945, but weren't the biggies still selling decently or was Superman way behind in sales vs. DC romance/sci fi/war/western, etc.? Wasn't it also harder for all those publishers to get space on newstands in the 50's, making it harder for so many titles to survive?

[ComicConnoisseur]

The Golden Age continued along until superheroes began to fall out of favor. This time saw the rise in popularity of diverse genres; westerns, romance, sci-fi, horror, etc. The superhero was in remission.

---------------------

 

Could someone humor me and give me an idea of the print-runs/circulation of Superman, Batman, Detective, Action, Adventure and Wonder Woman and the umpteen Captain Marvel titles (which I guess ened in '53 due to legal dispute issues, not lack of sales?) from 1948-55 when superhero comics are said to be in decline? I understand the market could no longer support 100+ super hero titles from 15 publishers (or so it seemed) like in 1945, but weren't the biggies still selling decently or was Superman way behind in sales vs. DC romance/sci fi/war/western, etc.? Wasn't it also harder for all those publishers to get space on newstands in the 50's, making it harder for so many titles to survive?

I know Superman/Action continued to sell close to a million copies a month in the 1950`s probally do to the Superman George Reeves tv popularity.

[the blob]

The Golden Age continued along until superheroes began to fall out of favor. This time saw the rise in popularity of diverse genres; westerns, romance, sci-fi, horror, etc. The superhero was in remission.

---------------------

 

Could someone humor me and give me an idea of the print-runs/circulation of Superman, Batman, Detective, Action, Adventure and Wonder Woman and the umpteen Captain Marvel titles (which I guess ened in '53 due to legal dispute issues, not lack of sales?) from 1948-55 when superhero comics are said to be in decline? I understand the market could no longer support 100+ super hero titles from 15 publishers (or so it seemed) like in 1945, but weren't the biggies still selling decently or was Superman way behind in sales vs. DC romance/sci fi/war/western, etc.? Wasn't it also harder for all those publishers to get space on newstands in the 50's, making it harder for so many titles to survive?

I know Superman/Action continued to sell close to a million copies a month in the 1950`s probally do to the Superman George Reeves tv popularity.

 

I would have thought the same thing, but then I read about some of those mid-50's DCs, even Supes, being hard to find and one has to wonder, why? It's not like there were paper drives for Vietnam and Wertheim was burning a lot less comics by the mid-50's, no?

[sakaridis]

For example the Silver Age to me started over a span of about 5 years (1956-1961)

.

 

You can also suggest that the Bronze Age "started" over a span of 4-5 years (1970-1974/1975), which would've encompassed many of the first appearances referenced already.

 

My only issue isn't so much where the BA started as when it ended. You can easily make a point that it lasted into 1986 or so with titles like the Dark Knight and Watchmen, but that causes a problem with an overlap of the Copper Age, which is probably best defined by its many independent B&W titles, most notably Cerebus and TMNT (1979-1984).

 

Someone make a good case for when the BA stopped and the CA started.

 

Bronze age ended with X-Men 143, Fantastic Four 231, Avengers 200, Amazing Spider-Man 200 and Daredevil 167.

 

I'm flabbergasted - I can't believe I agree with both Watson and JC at the same time as to the end of the Bronze Age

It's because you're all Marvel geeks

 

 

 

 

 

[divad]

I would have thought the same thing, but then I read about some of those mid-50's DCs, even Supes, being hard to find and one has to wonder, why? It's not like there were paper drives for Vietnam and Wertheim was burning a lot less comics by the mid-50's, no?

 

Actually, during the mid to late 60's we held paper drives about every other month . . .

[2020-migration]

A better way to say it is that the BA wasn't *just* about the super-hero, and it proved you didn't need to be bit by a radioactive hamster to sell funny books.

 

There were certainly new superheroes, but there were also "human" characters like Conan, Punisher, Shang-Chi, Iron Fist, Bullseye, etc., Monsters as Heroes (Dracula, Frankenstein, Werewolf, Swamp Thing, etc.), Satanism (Ghost Rider, Son of Satan), and the incredible growth of 3rd-party licensed characters/concepts like Star Wars, Human Fly, Micronauts, etc.

 

It's been said before, but one of the main problems with this hobby is the insanely superhero-centric/20-20 hindsight way fans view everything. Not everything revolves around heroes in tights, and much of the "eras" we define are flawed because of it - for example, DC published more superhero comics through the 50's than any other genre (in fact, making up the majority of their line), yet many mistakenly view that time period as "superhero-free".

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

I am probably one of the insanely superhero centric hobbyists. While I enjoy the variety of the other genres, comics in my mind cannot survive without superheroes. It can survive without the others.

 

Thanks for the clarification.