My take on when the SilverAge ended (a Marvel view)

[whetteon]

Whatever started the BA would have to be a key book.

 

I'm in the Conan #1 camp myself.

 

 

I believe Conan 1 was the first Bronze Age book for Marvel and the Green Lantern 76 was the first Bronze Age book for DC. Mostly because a historian came here and made a fantastic argument a few years back. Maybe someone who knows how to use the search feature on this board can drag it out of the abyss. (thumbs u

[40sJohn]

A better way to say it is that the BA wasn't *just* about the super-hero, and it proved you didn't need to be bit by a radioactive hamster to sell funny books.

 

There were certainly new superheroes, but there were also "human" characters like Conan, Punisher, Shang-Chi, Iron Fist, Bullseye, etc., Monsters as Heroes (Dracula, Frankenstein, Werewolf, Swamp Thing, etc.), Satanism (Ghost Rider, Son of Satan), and the incredible growth of 3rd-party licensed characters/concepts like Star Wars, Human Fly, Micronauts, etc.

 

It's been said before, but one of the main problems with this hobby is the insanely superhero-centric/20-20 hindsight way fans view everything. Not everything revolves around heroes in tights, and much of the "eras" we define are flawed because of it - for example, DC published more superhero comics through the 50's than any other genre (in fact, making up the majority of their line), yet many mistakenly view that time period as "superhero-free".

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

I am probably one of the insanely superhero centric hobbyists. While I enjoy the variety of the other genres, comics in my mind cannot survive without superheroes. It can survive without the others.

 

[Guardian Comics]

That may be true but KirbyJacks arguement that the GA and SA are based on Superhero events and NOT any other genre

 

That is not up for debate, it is fact.

 

Great, but what does that have to do with the Bronze Age?

 

Nothing, and that's not up for debate, it is a fact.

 

All I'm asking is why do you get to change the rules? If the GA is named so because of the birth of the Superhero, and the SA because of the reimergence of the superhero, well why does the the BA begin when a fantasy character gets his own book? It doesn't make sense

 

Now you want to classify the Bronze Age as the beginning of realism in superhero comics, and the birth of the anti hero and we arrive at GL/GA #76 and the pattern continues.

 

Not looking to argue, just thought that KirbyJacks point was valid.

 

Jim

[KirbyJack]

Thanks for the support, Jim, but I've pretty much accepted that this idea is doomed. I understand why. These discussions start with the premise that the Bronze Age occurs in the early 1970s. This idea challenges that. The beauty of the argument is that it is consistant, but all it really does is save the "metal" ages for superheroes.

 

I fully acknowledge that an Age starts when Kirby left Marvel, and that Conan #1 is a great choice for its foundation, it's just that I prefer to call that Age something else.

[divad]

Thanks for the support, Jim, but I've pretty much accepted that this idea is doomed. I understand why. These discussions start with the premise that the Bronze Age occurs in the early 1970s. This idea challenges that. The beauty of the argument is that it is consistant, but all it really does is save the "metal" ages for superheroes.

 

I fully acknowledge that an Age starts when Kirby left Marvel, and that Conan #1 is a great choice for its foundation, it's just that I prefer to call that Age something else.

 

Yes, it is doomed, primarily for the reason that unfortunately, it is unsupported. The "Age" designations don't belong to anyone. They exist only for reference within the comic collecting community. There are arguably a good number of factors in play that determine the onset of a new age, not just one book. And yes, they are fun to discuss.

[towards2112]

August 17, 1970 , about 11 pm, someone got a

VERY special birthday present.

[Sharkey]

A better way to say it is that the BA wasn't *just* about the super-hero, and it proved you didn't need to be bit by a radioactive hamster to sell funny books.

 

There were certainly new superheroes, but there were also "human" characters like Conan, Punisher, Shang-Chi, Iron Fist, Bullseye, etc., Monsters as Heroes (Dracula, Frankenstein, Werewolf, Swamp Thing, etc.), Satanism (Ghost Rider, Son of Satan), and the incredible growth of 3rd-party licensed characters/concepts like Star Wars, Human Fly, Micronauts, etc.

 

It's been said before, but one of the main problems with this hobby is the insanely superhero-centric/20-20 hindsight way fans view everything. Not everything revolves around heroes in tights, and much of the "eras" we define are flawed because of it - for example, DC published more superhero comics through the 50's than any other genre (in fact, making up the majority of their line), yet many mistakenly view that time period as "superhero-free".

 

Excellent points, Joe.

 

Probably the reason that so many people think of the 50s as being "super-hero free" is because there were no MARVEL super-heroes. And we all know those are the only ones that mattered.

And of course most 50s DC hero books pretty much sucked, but they were still being published and sold.

 

I concur that Conan 1 heralded in the Bronze Age. But to Mica's credit, he makes a compelling argument for when the Silver Age ended. So... can we hypothesize that there could be a gap from the end of the Silver Age to the beginning of the Bronze Age? Or is it cut and dried that one stops and the other starts immediately? Do most people agree that there was more than a one or two month period between the ages.

 

I always supported the concept that Marvel went through a transition period that was neither Silver or Bronze. So many changes going on. Kirby leaves. Titles are suspended. New titles are launched. Additional changes in editorial management and creative talent take place as Stan Lee has less involvement in the day to day creative process. The magic of what made the Silver Age so innovative faded away, and the company transitioned to a new exciting age of swords, sorcery, horror, and evolving socially conscious superherodom now known as the Bronze Age.

 

Mica's contention that Silver Age ended with FF 100 is as sound as any I've heard. From the Marvel perspective, of course. (thumbs u

[VintageComics]

That may be true but KirbyJacks arguement that the GA and SA are based on Superhero events and NOT any other genre

 

That is not up for debate, it is fact.

 

Great, but what does that have to do with the Bronze Age?

 

Nothing, and that's not up for debate, it is a fact.

 

All I'm asking is why do you get to change the rules? If the GA is named so because of the birth of the Superhero, and the SA because of the reimergence of the superhero, well why does the the BA begin when a fantasy character gets his own book? It doesn't make sense

 

Now you want to classify the Bronze Age as the beginning of realism in superhero comics, and the birth of the anti hero and we arrive at GL/GA #76 and the pattern continues.

 

Not looking to argue, just thought that KirbyJacks point was valid.

 

Jim

 

I can understand JC's point.

 

The changing of the eras is not necessarily about the switch back to heros as much as it is about a large sudden change.

 

For example, 1938 with the into of Superman was a large sudden change and then as heroes faded out different genres carried the GA for almost a decade.

 

1956-1961 was a large sudden change again with heroes stealing the spotlight a second time.

 

1970 was a large, sudden change again but this time the hero instead of making a comeback, made an evolutionary change and the anti hero became the hero. There is no doubt that it was the sudden darkening, the sobering of story telling that ushered in the 1970's...whether it was the death of major characters or simply the emergence of new, more human characters, it was something that was definitely part of a large movement.

 

I agree that these eras are only recognized by comic geeks and don't exist among non-nerds.

 

1970 definitely seems like a relatively strong line in the sand although it doesn't have to be limited a specific date like a birthday.

 

For example the Silver Age to me started over a span of about 5 years (1956-1961).

 

 

 

 

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

For example the Silver Age to me started over a span of about 5 years (1956-1961)

.

 

You can also suggest that the Bronze Age "started" over a span of 4-5 years (1970-1974/1975), which would've encompassed many of the first appearances referenced already.

 

My only issue isn't so much where the BA started as when it ended. You can easily make a point that it lasted into 1986 or so with titles like the Dark Knight and Watchmen, but that causes a problem with an overlap of the Copper Age, which is probably best defined by its many independent B&W titles, most notably Cerebus and TMNT (1979-1984).

 

Someone make a good case for when the BA stopped and the CA started.

 

 

[DrWatson]

For example the Silver Age to me started over a span of about 5 years (1956-1961)

.

 

You can also suggest that the Bronze Age "started" over a span of 4-5 years (1970-1974/1975), which would've encompassed many of the first appearances referenced already.

 

My only issue isn't so much where the BA started as when it ended. You can easily make a point that it lasted into 1986 or so with titles like the Dark Knight and Watchmen, but that causes a problem with an overlap of the Copper Age, which is probably best defined by its many independent B&W titles, most notably Cerebus and TMNT (1979-1984).

 

Someone make a good case for when the BA stopped and the CA started.

 

Bronze age ended with X-Men 143, Fantastic Four 231, Avengers 200, Amazing Spider-Man 200 and Daredevil 167.

[joe_collector]

Someone make a good case for when the BA stopped and the CA started.

 

It used to be 1981 or so, before OS dealers attempted to pawn off their unsellable CA books by retroactively calling them Bronze.

 

Here's a timeline, taking contributions from many other CGC forum members, for the BA moving into the CA:

 

May 1979: Daredevil 158- First Miller art

Feb 1980: She-Hulk #1

Mar 1980: King Conan 1

Apr 1980: Star Trek 1

Spring 1980: Epic Illustrated 1

Sep 1980: X-Men 137- Death of Dark Phoenix

Oct 1980: DC Presents 26- first New Teen Titans

Nov 1980: New Teen Titans 1

Nov 1980 – Moon Knight gets his own series

1980 : Superboy Spectacular- Direct Sales only 1-shot

Jan 1981: Daredevil 168- First Miller -script; Intro Elektra

Jan 1981: X-Men 141- Days of Future Past launches alternate time line that would form the basis for lots of uber-fandom-based X-continuity over the next several years

Mar 1981: X-Men 143- Final Claremont/Byrne

Mar 1981: Dazzler 1- First direct-sales-only for an ongoing series

Jul 1981 – Fantastic Four 232 - Byrne takes over FF writing/art duties.

Aug 1981 – Rogue debuts

Nov 1981: Captain Victory 1- First Pacific Comics issue, direct-only publisher

1981: Stan Lee moves to California to head Marvel TV/movie properties, leaving Jim Shooter in charge.

 

I think the emergence of the Direct Market-only titles, and Pacific Comics, the first true multi-title Indy publisher are significant events, as is Stan Lee leaving Marvel Comics and putting Jim Shooter in charge.

 

So 1981 is my pick for the start of the CA.

 

[DarkKnightReturns]

[joe_collector]

But no matter what way you look at it, the BA definitely ended by 1982, the start of the mini-series, which obviously dominated the decade, and started with Contest of Champions and Wolverine minis. Not to mention Marvel Fanfare, also in 1982.

[That Ron Dude]

Thanks for bringing it up Mica. There's fascinating information in this discussion.

[Green]

I know that most people say 1970 or later but to me the SA was ending when they canned TTA ToS etc and started their first mass relaunches in '68. Of course i wasnt there to see it

[Silver Surfer]

I kind of like the idea as FF#100 being the end of the SA, kind of symbolic given that Kirby did the first 100 issues of the first ever Marvel series.

[Guardian Comics]

That may be true but KirbyJacks arguement that the GA and SA are based on Superhero events and NOT any other genre

 

That is not up for debate, it is fact.

 

Great, but what does that have to do with the Bronze Age?

 

Nothing, and that's not up for debate, it is a fact.

 

All I'm asking is why do you get to change the rules? If the GA is named so because of the birth of the Superhero, and the SA because of the reimergence of the superhero, well why does the the BA begin when a fantasy character gets his own book? It doesn't make sense

 

Now you want to classify the Bronze Age as the beginning of realism in superhero comics, and the birth of the anti hero and we arrive at GL/GA #76 and the pattern continues.

 

Not looking to argue, just thought that KirbyJacks point was valid.

 

Jim

 

I can understand JC's point.

 

The changing of the eras is not necessarily about the switch back to heros as much as it is about a large sudden change.

 

For example, 1938 with the into of Superman was a large sudden change and then as heroes faded out different genres carried the GA for almost a decade.

 

1956-1961 was a large sudden change again with heroes stealing the spotlight a second time.

 

1970 was a large, sudden change again but this time the hero instead of making a comeback, made an evolutionary change and the anti hero became the hero. There is no doubt that it was the sudden darkening, the sobering of story telling that ushered in the 1970's...whether it was the death of major characters or simply the emergence of new, more human characters, it was something that was definitely part of a large movement.

 

I agree that these eras are only recognized by comic geeks and don't exist among non-nerds.

 

1970 definitely seems like a relatively strong line in the sand although it doesn't have to be limited a specific date like a birthday.

 

For example the Silver Age to me started over a span of about 5 years (1956-1961).

 

 

 

 

Okay, I will accept this entire argument, but why is it not GL/GA #76 then? Green Arrow is more of an anti-hero than hero at that point, and Adams/O'Neal are introducing realism to books...the first to do so.

 

 

Jim

[joe_collector]

Okay, I will accept this entire argument, but why is it not GL/GA #76 then? Green Arrow is more of an anti-hero than hero at that point, and Adams/O'Neal are introducing realism to books...the first to do so.

 

Come on, Green Arrow an anti-hero?

 

GL/GA 76, while an important book, is far more a bookend to the 60's than anything that heralded the 70's. The book was a familiar "Fight the Man" type storyline, with a hackneyed racial tone, and a very deep 60's vibe. It was GL and GA out to "change the world" like some radical hippies, rather than embracing the darkness and disillusionment that represented the 70's.

 

If GL/GA 76 was truly part of the BA, then GL would have let that murdering slumlord blow up the grenade (and himself), then GA would have dug a deep hole for him. Instead we get the usual "DA and cops come to save the day" SA ending. And that 60's era "let's go find ourselves and our country" prologue..

 

But like I said, GL/GA 76 is an extremely important book and run, as it clearly is the last gasp of the Silver Age, like a vestigial limb left over from the 60's.

[DrWatson]

I kind of like the idea as FF#100 being the end of the SA, kind of symbolic given that Kirby did the first 100 issues of the first ever Marvel series.

It is a sliding scale as to when each individual series entered a particular age.

 

I agree that FF 100 marks the end of the SA and 101 the beginning of the BA. The same with X-Men 66 being the last SA issue as I believe Marvel reprints are definitely a Bronze Age creation.

 

I don't think it's possible to declare any age dead and another age born as if it had a birth or death certificate. On August 14, 1970, at 12:25 PM the Silver Age died and the Bronze Age was born. I don't think it works like that.

[VintageComics]

Okay, I will accept this entire argument, but why is it not GL/GA #76 then? Green Arrow is more of an anti-hero than hero at that point, and Adams/O'Neal are introducing realism to books...the first to do so.

 

 

Jim

 

I wasn't too sure on the time lines until I just checked. GL #76 was out a few months before

Conan #1 and was definitely ground breaking on a level not very often done in comics.

 

I have no problem with GL #76 as being the start of the bronze period (with other books coming on board over the coming months) but then I'm a little dull on my comic book history at this point.

 

From where I'm sitting it sounds plausible.