My EBAY Nightmare

[TempusFugitivus]

My thanks to everyone for letting me vent (My wife sure didn't want to hear it).

I'll go sleep this off.

 

Fortunately, I never wake up mad. Used to be because I'm a natural optimist and every day is a brand new beginning. Now its because I'm too groggy in the morning to remember much of anything and, when I do remember, I'm so happy that my mind is once again functioning that nothing really seems that important.

 

In the end, I'm not really out of anything but a lot of wasted time

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

I'm finding it hard to believe anyone really thinks John should have gone ahead with the deal. Ebay obviously screwed the pooch on this one and it's not John's responsibility to eat the loss. It's Ebay's responsibility to fix it. The buyer just has to deal with the loss.

 

Why is it the buyer who just has to eat it?

 

I agree Ebay has the responsibility to fix it, but if a bid is a legally binding agreement, then it's binding on both parties. While ebay's system didn't work properly with some screening function, the legitimate bidder still bid and won following all of the rules and terms. This is an imperfect solution, but my opinion is that (and this is all technical) the transaction should have completed, information collected regarding ebay's failures, the evidence indicating the item would have sold but for ebay's failure, ebay owes a duty to the seller to insure each listing would have complete functionality, or they owe restitution to the seller for the difference in the amount of the highest maximum bid that was attempted to be placed.

 

 

I do not disagree with this in any way. But ebay/paypal was basically: "Tough Luck."

And the buyer was first uncommunicative, then threats, then swears. Not even a lick of sympathy. I'm actually a fairly righteous person. If he had made a single appeal to my sense of fairness, I would have certainly done whatever I could to try to make it work out for him. Please notice in my first e-mail to him that I specifically say I am undecided what I am going to do. This was an attempt to open a dialogue. But no one swears at me (particularly that swear) and is going to get anything from me but a taste of some fairly insane Irish temper.

 

You did the right thing, TF. You're an awesome person, and I'm sorry that you had to go through this.I can see that you're a really fair guy. I was wondering....would you like to sell your Spidey #1? I was thinking around $14.5K....

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

The buyer doesn't lose a penny out of the deal. He just doesn't get a book at a artificially reduced price due to the incompetence of the auction house. While it is common for people to try to take advantage of a situation like this, I think it would be unethical to insist that the seller go through with the deal. It would be just like someone on the board making a typo when listing a book and having someone snatch it up before the typo could be corrected. With all the talk in this forum about ethics in comics, and people trying to game the system, it strikes me as a bit hypocritical for people to think the buyer should be allowed to take advantage of the seller in a situation like this.

 

Right freakin' on.

[RockMyAmadeus]

various comic omnibi

 

"omnibi"...

 

[Real Elijah Snow]

In my experience it is an uphill battle when you are in a position to need ebay's help with anything. Fortunately i don't sell high ticket items, so i don't ever have much issue. You are absolutely in the right in not honoring this sale. +1 on pretty mush everything RMA and others have posted as far as the auction not being legitimate due to technical difficulty. That is legitimate money being left on the table due to some BS policy they have instituted. It's well in line with every other policy that they come up with. Every time that they come up with some new rule it ranges from being a minor inconvenience to something that ends up costing the seller major $$$. Their mission statement has got to start with "The seller's are making us a ton of money, but F them.".

I remember when the search function etc had issues a while back. I actually had a bunch of auctions ending that day. I honored anyone that won anything, but i took a bath on some of that stuff. Again, not high ticket items, so i figured the potential loss in customers was not worth the amount of money. As an example, i want to say that i had a run of Wonder Woman 1-175 or thereabouts end at $15 or so. Obviously lowered due to ebay's error, but again, i wanted to honor all the prices even though they were not legitimate to keep my customers happy. I made more sales thereafter based on some of those auctions. At the end of the day it probably ended up evening out. Had i been spooned over for several thousand dollars it would have been a different story.

Their system is the cause of you losing a substantial amount of money. You are completely justified in wanting the auction to end for the fair amount had their system not caused buyers to be obstructed from actually bidding the book up to what it would have if left unfettered. Also, calling you a "punt" is a little ridiculous. Especially in light of the fact that you went out of your way to explain the situation, while also offering to come to some sort of solution that could have ultimately resulted in the buyer getting the book for the ending price.

Man i can rant when it comes to Ebay and their ridiculousness.

[KEY ISSUES Comics]

PART TWO:

 

Of course, there was the guy who actually won the Spider-Man 1. As the week wore on and I realized how bad I had been screwed over, I never heard from him.

 

So I finally contacted him and wrote:

Hello xxxx,

Since the end of the auction for this book, I have found out that ebay blocked multiple bidders from putting down bids at the end of the auction. In an auction where the bid is greater than $10,000, ebay will not let many bidders bid without having them confirm their phone numbers or addresses or other information first. With a minute to go, multiple bidders were timed out by this requirement. I have contacted ebay/paypal about what has happened and their response has basically just been: "Sorry" and they have, after evidently costing me thousands of dollars, graciously promised to maybe refund me a couple hundred dollars worth of fees. I have also found out that, by ebay's own rules, some of these buyers should not have been blocked at all. If you wish to contact ebay themselves about this, the session ID# is 24134773. I am presently undecided what to do about this but have decided to ask you if you would rescind the transaction in the sense of fairness.

 

He responded:

This is unacceptable. I'm going to have to file a complaint.

 

I wrote:

Hello xxxx,

I do not blame you. If I was in your position, I would be very unhappy. Please try to understand my position. If ebay had not blocked the bidders, I now know that the item would have sold for over $17,000 at least (as there may be blocked bidders who did not contact me). Upon informing ebay of the bidders that were blocked (who basically mass e-mailed after the auction), ebay admitted that, by their own regulations, it should not have happened. I have no problem with an auction won fair and square but this..... In any case, I understand your position and have no hard feelings about it. File a complaint, leave a negative, do what you have to do. You still have my apologies for the situation.

 

The seller then finally paid up with an e-check.

 

He responded:

I'll pursue a fraud complaint against you through Paypal and my bank.

 

I wrote:

Be my guest, I could care less. FYI, I canceled your payment. There is no fraud.

 

He responded:

you're a real **** (rhymes with punt)

 

I wrote:

The really funny thing is that, if you had simply paid quickly rather than taking all week, you would already have the book. I mailed books out on Monday and Tuesday for those that paid quick. As the week went on and I got message after message about the auction, I began to realize how I had been cheated by ebay. By simply being fast, you could have pocketed thousands.

 

Then I called him a few expletives of my own.

 

I've never been so happy to be sworn at in my life. It washed away any guilt I felt.

I'm sorry to hear that. And isn't amazing how easily buyers get rude on Ebay when you try to explain something. They always resort to threats and name calling. Quite unpleasant.

[asteroid-comix]

I'm finding it hard to believe anyone really thinks John should have gone ahead with the deal. Ebay obviously screwed the pooch on this one and it's not John's responsibility to eat the loss. It's Ebay's responsibility to fix it. The buyer just has to deal with the loss.

 

Why is it the buyer who just has to eat it?

 

Because he didn't win it legitimately.

 

I agree Ebay has the responsibility to fix it, but if a bid is a legally binding agreement, then it's binding on both parties.

 

Not when there are issues that prevent other, just as legally binding bids from being entered.

 

The rules exist to free man, not enslave him.

 

While ebay's system didn't work properly with some screening function, the legitimate bidder still bid and won following all of the rules and terms. This is an imperfect solution, but my opinion is that (and this is all technical) the transaction should have completed, information collected regarding ebay's failures, the evidence indicating the item would have sold but for ebay's failure, ebay owes a duty to the seller to insure each listing would have complete functionality, or they owe restitution to the seller for the difference in the amount of the highest maximum bid that was attempted to be placed.

 

 

I don't know John, but he sounds like he is a well respected collector/seller.

 

However...

 

John, you choose to do business with eBay. You trusted that their auction site would work best for you and get the best price for your books.

 

You were the seller and you made this decision. eBay's problems, technical glitches, nightmare customer service, apparent outright lack of any concern for the sellers protection and point of view, and ability to keep things fair in light of shills, snipes, etc. have all been well documented.

 

At the end of the day the hammer fell and the buyer won the book. Doesn't sound like there were threats, swears, etc. until you told the buyer that you were not going to honor the sale and wished that he cancel the transaction.

 

I've been to live auctions where folks have walked out because you couldn't understand the auctioneer, where no one showed because the weather was horrible and it was a published sale that had to take place, where the consignors friends were obviously driving prices up, and even where the auctioneer has awarded a win and not seen the guy in the back of the room frantically trying to get his attention to place a bid that may have prolonged the auction and caused the item to sell for a great deal more instead of the bargain price given at bid close. If you deal in online auctions you have to assume that these things are going to happen as well.

 

The online world is only a mirror to the real one in which we live and work everyday.

 

You trusted eBay to auction your book in the best manner possible. They failed you. The buyer trusted that you were a stand-up seller that was going to honor the auction. You failed him.

 

That’s my at least.

 

 

 

[Shootydog]

Was there a reserve on the auction? Had there been a reserve that would likely have made all this moot.

[Gary Strange]

I'm sure this has already been said, bu this is a suck situation in general, and if the seller was expecting to get a certain amount for this book, they should have made it a fixed price or reserve auction. That way the buyer (albeit a jack-*ss) wouldn't have thought he had a chance to get the book for a deal.

 

As a buyer, I've sat at the computer at 2:00 am before for the last 10 seconds of an auction to put my bid in, and if I won and the seller emailed me the next day to tell me he wasn't honoring the transaction, I'd be pretty mad too.

 

As a seller, I know ebay isn't the company it was five or eight years ago. They've made a lot of changes, not all of them good (i.e. you can only use paypal now, so ebay can take a little more from your profit through a paypal transaction fee on top of listing fee and final value fee) and I would be hesitant to list a high dollar item for the sheer fact that I'd be giving ebay so much money off of it's sale. Besides, a book like Spider-Man #1 would sell well anywhere you list it, Heritage, Comiclink...hell, even craigslist.

 

And I'm sorry you ended up in that situation.

[Dano]

I feel bad for the seller here, too. But why did they guy who had 14.5K get 'approved', but no one else did? He used some foul language on the seller, but he probably thought he got a sweet book at around GPA, and then the seller tells him he is, 'undecided' on what to to do. Heck, if I dropped 17 bucks and the seller had second thoughts, I'd be cranky. Just my .

 

Dan

[ComicConnoisseur]

I'm finding it hard to believe anyone really thinks John should have gone ahead with the deal. Ebay obviously screwed the pooch on this one and it's not John's responsibility to eat the loss. It's Ebay's responsibility to fix it. The buyer just has to deal with the loss.

 

Why is it the buyer who just has to eat it?

 

Because he didn't win it legitimately.

 

I agree Ebay has the responsibility to fix it, but if a bid is a legally binding agreement, then it's binding on both parties.

 

Not when there are issues that prevent other, just as legally binding bids from being entered.

 

The rules exist to free man, not enslave him.

 

While ebay's system didn't work properly with some screening function, the legitimate bidder still bid and won following all of the rules and terms. This is an imperfect solution, but my opinion is that (and this is all technical) the transaction should have completed, information collected regarding ebay's failures, the evidence indicating the item would have sold but for ebay's failure, ebay owes a duty to the seller to insure each listing would have complete functionality, or they owe restitution to the seller for the difference in the amount of the highest maximum bid that was attempted to be placed.

 

 

I don't know John, but he sounds like he is a well respected collector/seller.

 

However...

 

John, you choose to do business with eBay. You trusted that their auction site would work best for you and get the best price for your books.

 

You were the seller and you made this decision. eBay's problems, technical glitches, nightmare customer service, apparent outright lack of any concern for the sellers protection and point of view, and ability to keep things fair in light of shills, snipes, etc. have all been well documented.

 

At the end of the day the hammer fell and the buyer won the book. Doesn't sound like there were threats, swears, etc. until you told the buyer that you were not going to honor the sale and wished that he cancel the transaction.

 

I've been to live auctions where folks have walked out because you couldn't understand the auctioneer, where no one showed because the weather was horrible and it was a published sale that had to take place, where the consignors friends were obviously driving prices up, and even where the auctioneer has awarded a win and not seen the guy in the back of the room frantically trying to get his attention to place a bid that may have prolonged the auction and caused the item to sell for a great deal more instead of the bargain price given at bid close. If you deal in online auctions you have to assume that these things are going to happen as well.

 

The online world is only a mirror to the real one in which we live and work everyday.

 

You trusted eBay to auction your book in the best manner possible. They failed you. The buyer trusted that you were a stand-up seller that was going to honor the auction. You failed him.

That’s my at least.

 

 

Good post and agree, also kinda reminds me of sellers putting thousand dollar books on at a starting price of .99 cents, If the book is worth a substantial amount they shouldn`t charade that the buyer will get it on the cheap, just wasting someone`s time for a week. Put either a reasonable starting price or a buy it now with immediate paypal payment and a lot of this wouldn`t happen.

[mackenzie999]

Ebay, or any auction really, is a gamble for all parties involved.

 

While I feel the technically correct solution would be to give the seller the book for his bid and pursue Ebay for damages, I think by not selling the book you minimize the damages to all involved to essentially time wasted and hopes dashed. I know that stinks for the buyer, especially considering how many dealers on Ebay do NOT deserve any slack (I don't know the OP and can only assume he's one of the good guys), but I'd rather see two people get punched rather than one guy get shot.

 

 

[hockey&comicsguy]

I gotta agree with Cheetah and RMA's take on this. Although Brian is doing his best to make me waver.

 

I just think that in the spirit of things, it shouldn't go down like this. I think of it as being at the plate, two strikes on you and you whiff but the ump says you got a piece of it. You know you didn't. You shouldn't stand up there and get a free pitch. It ain't the right way to benefit.

 

As far as knowing if you were lied to, I don't have turnip tattooed on my forehead either. I'd ask the seller to prove to me what happened. If he could, i'd walk away disappointed I didn't get the book. But not as disappointed in myself if I guilted the guy into going through with it.

 

 

[Jaymole]

I feel bad for both parties in this situation, but I was reading the thread thinking that the buyer should have realized something might have been fishy in getting the book for such a low price, but I just realized (due to a recent post) that 14,500 is right around what the GPA is on this book. Sorry, as the winning bidder, I would be pretty upset as well. (The seller losing money on the final sale should have ZERO to do with any decision in cancelling the transaction).

 

I feel bad that there was some problems at the end with some bidders, but I think the final bid was a fair price. If the final price was way lower than GPA, then I think the seller would be in a better position to bargain with the customer due to ebay's negligence (although as the buyer, I would want as much proof as possible about what went wrong).

 

That being said, eBay should have cancelled the auction and send a notice to both parties....but they just don't give a mess.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Leave it to eBay to insure that no side (buyer, seller, or their own) is even remotely satisfied with the outcome of a transaction. Good job guys....keep up the good work! (thumbs u

[hockey&comicsguy]

I was reading the thread thinking that the buyer should have realized something might have been fishy in getting the book for such a low price, but I just realized (due to a recent post) that 14,500 is right around what the GPA is on this book. Sorry, as the winning bidder, I would be pretty upset as well.

 

I feel bad that there was some problems at the end with some bidders, but I think the final bid was a fair price. If the final price was way lower than GPA, then I think the seller would be in a better position to bargain with the customer due to ebay's negligence (although as the buyer, I would want as much proof as possible about what went wrong).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think a lower selling price would've helped at all. If the book sold for 5 bucks ebay's position would still be tough shet. If anybody has warm, cuddly feelings to the contrary about ebay then by all means, share them with the group.

 

Bare with me here. But i'm picturing a couple of people sitting at an auction and when they raise their paddles to bid, all their paddles snap off at the handle and fall to the ground and the auctioneer slams down the hammer, awarding it to the last bidder. Who cares if the price is lower, higher or right at GPA? Doesn't matter. In this case, you had confirmed (by ebay) bidders who had punched in higher bids and ebay just ed it all up.

 

One thing to do would be to re run the auction. Although why would you ever deal with that auction house again? I probably wouldn't.

 

I have sympathy for the buyer who lost out. But call me a (word that rhymes with hunt) and be grateful that i'm letting you walk away at all.

[comicwiz]

John, you're a stand up guy and a first rate seller. Despite ebay's issues, it isn't as if the book sold for $5.

 

The buyer had a legitimate gripe. You had a legitimate gripe. Unfortunately, I think the buyer -- who should never have let it devolve into complete incivility --- has some legitimate claim here and the transaction should have been completed. I know it seems tough to swallow but... the auction is the auction.

 

Now what I wonder is if ebay has exposed themselves to liability here... let's say John had completed the sale, and as a result of some ebay mistake or glitch, thousands of dollars were lost. I'm not saying it's an easy case, but it certainly makes me wonder.

 

For all those pointing out the need to honour the bid, I'm wondering if the tables had turned, and the bidders were informed by other bidding participants or eBay that the auction experienced a glitch that inflated their bids - what then, would your position be?

 

Bottom line, eBay, their software, and the entire auction process was interfered with through some technical glitch, and that glitch hampered the opportunity for the seller of the book to achieve its deserved price.

 

Look at it any way you like, the OP definitely has as legitimate a gripe as anyone, and IMHO, his entitlements and rights as a seller supersedes entrusting eBay's system to work properly. And that ought to mean voiding any bidding contract when eBay itself admits their system messed up.

 

If you haven't already filed a complaint with the FTC, don't delay. I especially do not like the sounds of eBay deciding to pull the PayPal card as a punitive measure. This is definitely something that will catch the attention of the FTC's investigative arm, especially in light of all the allegations of collusion and monopoly that have, and continue to, linger online since eBay took over PayPal.

[Flaming_Telepath]

I think eBay royally screwed up on this, but really, is anyone surprised by this? There are many, many, many pitfalls with attempting to do business through eBay and they are well-known. This one, whilst a new one, is pretty much par for the course and unfortunately, it should be part and parcel of using the venue. Nobody forced anybody to use eBay, so as they say...you pays your money, your takes your chances.

 

As has been said already, the absolutely correct thing to do would be to honour the bid and then pursue eBay for damages. The book actually did go for FMV and the fact that it might have gone for more is not the buyer's problem.

 

The problem with this is that there is only a slim chance that you will make a successful claim against eBay and I therefore understand why matter have been taken into the seller's hands.

 

It's not the correct thing to do, but it is understandable.

[Jaymole]

I was reading the thread thinking that the buyer should have realized something might have been fishy in getting the book for such a low price, but I just realized (due to a recent post) that 14,500 is right around what the GPA is on this book. Sorry, as the winning bidder, I would be pretty upset as well.

 

I feel bad that there was some problems at the end with some bidders, but I think the final bid was a fair price. If the final price was way lower than GPA, then I think the seller would be in a better position to bargain with the customer due to ebay's negligence (although as the buyer, I would want as much proof as possible about what went wrong).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think a lower selling price would've helped at all. If the book sold for 5 bucks ebay's position would still be tough shet. If anybody has warm, cuddly feelings to the contrary about ebay then by all means, share them with the group.

 

Bare with me here. But i'm picturing a couple of people sitting at an auction and when they raise their paddles to bid, all their paddles snap off at the handle and fall to the ground and the auctioneer slams down the hammer, awarding it to the last bidder. Who cares if the price is lower, higher or right at GPA? Doesn't matter. In this case, you had confirmed (by ebay) bidders who had punched in higher bids and ebay just ed it all up.

 

One thing to do would be to re run the auction. Although why would you ever deal with that auction house again? I probably wouldn't.

 

I have sympathy for the buyer who lost out. But call me a (word that rhymes with hunt) and be grateful that i'm letting you walk away at all.

 

Don't get me wrong, eBay is the guilty party here and should have cancelled the auction. I am just putting myself in the buyer's shoes and can understand the frustration when the sale is cancelled by the buyer after winning it at a reasonable price. There is no excuse in using language like that, but since the transaction was already cancelled, I guess it didn't matter to him what words he used.

 

 

[cheetah]

I was reading the thread thinking that the buyer should have realized something might have been fishy in getting the book for such a low price, but I just realized (due to a recent post) that 14,500 is right around what the GPA is on this book. Sorry, as the winning bidder, I would be pretty upset as well.

 

I feel bad that there was some problems at the end with some bidders, but I think the final bid was a fair price. If the final price was way lower than GPA, then I think the seller would be in a better position to bargain with the customer due to ebay's negligence (although as the buyer, I would want as much proof as possible about what went wrong).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think a lower selling price would've helped at all. If the book sold for 5 bucks ebay's position would still be tough shet. If anybody has warm, cuddly feelings to the contrary about ebay then by all means, share them with the group.

 

Bare with me here. But i'm picturing a couple of people sitting at an auction and when they raise their paddles to bid, all their paddles snap off at the handle and fall to the ground and the auctioneer slams down the hammer, awarding it to the last bidder. Who cares if the price is lower, higher or right at GPA? Doesn't matter. In this case, you had confirmed (by ebay) bidders who had punched in higher bids and ebay just ed it all up.

 

One thing to do would be to re run the auction. Although why would you ever deal with that auction house again? I probably wouldn't.

 

I have sympathy for the buyer who lost out. But call me a (word that rhymes with hunt) and be grateful that i'm letting you walk away at all.

 

Don't get me wrong, eBay is the guilty party here and should have cancelled the auction. I am just putting myself in the buyer's shoes and can understand the frustration when the sale is cancelled by the buyer after winning it at a reasonable price. There is no excuse in using language like that, but since the transaction was already cancelled, I guess it didn't matter to him what words he used.

 

 

I agree that eBay cancelling the auction and allowing it to be a do-over would be the appropriate thing to have happen.