What book started the Bronze Age of Comics???? 2 2

[underthebigw]

Superpimp--why do you insist on taking this chucklehead's word as Gospel.

 

There's just no way, absolutely no way, that Tomb of Drac is not a BA book. So is MTU, Swamp Thing, the Defenders, and all of the others listed by CI. You would be EXTREMELY hard pressed to find someone else (especially among those who were fans at the time) who believes that these books do not belong to the BA. In fact, I'm willing to bet I could poll con goers for a year and not find 500 fans who would agree that these books are not BA. This "gap" you're describing is arbitrary and it's only purpose is to support a contention that this book marks the beginning of the BA. The fact that virtually everyone I know who read comics in the '70's and who still collects bronze today (e.g., Flying Donut) considers the BA to date way prior to this book should be proof enough--if the majority of people who collect BA books think that these books are part of the era then, quite simply, they are. You may have your reasons for thinking otherwise, but to proclaim it is a given is to ignore overwhelming consensus without the logic to back it up.

 

Also, I think it was CI who astutely pointed out the difference in tone in the Bullpen Bulletins. My memory was also that it was really a very stark change and that, all of a sudden, experimentation and "newness" was emphasized instead of just the difference between Marvel and the Distinguished Competition.

[scottish]

Hey supa,

 

If CGC states that the start of the Modern age is 90s and up why do they allow 'Modern' submissions for books from 1975?

 

I'm not trying to get in on this arguement as I have no care as to the start or end of any age, but CI's arguements appear to be the most sound at this point. GS X-Men is just to late a book to be labeled the start of the Bronze age IMHO.

 

No offense, bro!

[underthebigw]

Just another point regarding this alleged gap--How can the period from '70-'75 not belong to the BA if the vast majority of the books Marvel published from '75-'80 had their origins in the first 5 years of the decade. This includes: MOKF, MTU, Marvel Two in One, Defenders, Power Man, Premier, Spotlight, Ghost Rider, Werewolf by Night and many others. It's one thing to dismiss this period as not BA and pretend this period had nothing to do with the later one, but when so many of Marvel's late '70's books began before the debut of the new X-men, this argument can't possibly hold. Unless of course, you'd argue that these titles themselves changed after the new team debuted. Not likely.

[Guest]

I think I know why Mr. Silver Age wants to define the BA as beginning with GSX-Men #1... he wants to keep all of the other Bronze age keys in his sweet spot...

 

Here's one... How can the Bronze Age starts with GS X-Men #1 if the following books listed in the Top Ten Bronze Age books by value list in the Overstreet Guide pre-date it?

 

Hulk 181

House of Secrets 92

DC 100 Page Super Spectacular #5

All Star Western # 10

 

[aardvark88]

Dan my Man,

How about Dec/77 Cerebus 1 as the start to the Independent Age? Pre-dates Fant Quarterly 1 (1st Elfquest, Spring '78 w/ 6 pgs D Sim art to boot) & TMNT 1 (Mirage, 1984) b/w EXPLOSION.

[Bronty]

Heh he -- what about circa 1967 (your birth year?) as being the start of the Odin88 Aardvark88 gamma bomb

 

btw, what's with the "88" after everything? Chinese good luck?

 

Dan

 

PS the b&w explosion rocked - I still collect those books. I think the Albedo 2 that Greggy mocked is a 9.4; now I just need to upgrade my TMNT #1

[aardvark88]

Danno,

U better be polite to the society of 88s or the Cgc triad in Vancouver is going to accidently drop your C #1 while we scrutinize to determine if counterfeit or not. At the very least, we will sweat on that black spine cvr. Nasty !

[greggy]

Hey, don't give odin credit for being born in a great year. He was born in 1964, unless my calculations are off because he had to repeat a year after being traumatized in the Burnaby school system after moving away from the safe confines of Chinatown!

[comicinvestor-migration]

You Donut:

 

My comment:

 

"If you were buying comics in 1975-76 you would know this and quickly realize that the New X-Men is a Modern phenomonen that had little or nothing to do with the Bronze Age."

 

Your comment:

 

Sorry, CI, but on this one you're wrong. At least in the Chicago area, the "New X-Men" were the absolute hottest thing out there from at least X-Men 96 on. As an example - I had a booth at the Chicago Comicon in 1977"

 

I don't see where we disagree, as Byrne started up at #108 in 1977. That was a bombshell and by 1978 when they really got going, New X-Men was hot. I don't believe the comic was even monthly until issues 110-112 or so. If a book doesn't have the sales to get out of the bi-monthly pit, then it's ain't doing too well.

 

My point was this: New X-Men was not a hit out of the box, and did not immediately start affecting comics until a good 3-4 years later. By that time, we were getting quite close to the end of the Bronze Age, so it is absolutely ludicrous to call Giant-Size X-Men #1 the start of the Bronze Age.

[supapimp]

Comic Investor,

 

So your trying to tell me that Showcase # 4 was a hit right out of the box? It took nearly 3 years after the revitalizing the Flash in 1956 to have his series start again in 1959 with issue # 105. After the Flash, it was Lois Lane in Showcase # 8, then later on down to issue # 22 was the 1st S.A. Green Latern. Then we all know who was introduced in November 1961 by Marvel. But that's just my arguement to everything that has been debated on this thread.

[comicinvestor-migration]

I see what's you're saying, which i why I feel Brave & Bold #28 was a far more important Silver Age book, but Showcase #4 was where it all started (check future Showcase and B&B issues to see how it started up relatively fast).

 

On the other hand, I have yet to see anything from you on my original question:

 

Show me the "hot books" that were produced in the years preceeding the release of Giant-Size X-Men #1 and before the start of the Modern Age. Personally, I can't think of a single major release that had any noticeable effect on the Bronze Age, that is, unless you think Nova and Ms. Marvel are major books.

 

On the other hand, after the intro of Conan and the Marvel Try-outs (and BEFORE GS X-Men #1), I could fill this page with new characters, comic titles, teams, revamped characters, etc. Two of them (Wolverine and Punisher) would be THE most popular characters and are core intros of the Bronze Age.

 

If you want to go head to head, just let me know as I've compiled a pretty long list of 1970-75 Bronze Age books. I can even beat the "non-record" of GS X-Men #1 using the same timeline for Silver.

 

I'll say this one more time: Giant-Size X-Men was a product of the Bronze Age and had virtually nothing to do with its formation. It did however, set the tone for much of the Modern Age, which (along with not understanding the concept of time and space) is probably where the confusion starts.

[supapimp]

Comic Investor,

 

As in "HOT" books prior to GS X-Men 1, i'll use 2 of the books you listed, Hulk 181 and ASM 129 first appearence of wolvie and punny. You have to remember the first appearence of punny didn't get hot until the release of the limited series drawn by Mike Zeck in 1986. Wolvie got popular after he joined the X-Men and he was viewed as a threat to Scott Summers (Jean Grey) and his uncontrollable violent animal characteristics that later followed down the line in X-Men. With those books being virtually unknown for quite some time after their inital release. That's just my arguement, but everybody has their own personal opinion, and i continue to welcome the debate. knowledge is power!

[comicinvestor-migration]

That's a pretty bad argument considering both were released in 1974, a year before Giant-Size X-men #1, but I guess everyone's got an opinion.

 

Me, I stick to the commonly established rules of time and space, and unless you've got a time machine, I seriously doubt that a book in 1975 resulted in the creation of two characters in 1974.

 

But hey, that's just me and Einstein's theory and it can always been disproven.

[supapimp]

Comic Investor,

 

Your missing the point, it took 12 years for punny's first appearence in ASM 129 to break $10. Here's another great example, book was released in August 1974 in Astonishing Tales #25 (am i stating to ring a bell?) 1st appearence of Deathlok. Here is another book that predates GS X-Men # 1, but did not get hot till his character was rejuvenated in his own mini-series in 1990, when Marvel was doing it rebirth of 1970's characters. I'll say it again, GS X-Men # 1 was a platform of launching reader enthusiasim in super-hero's again. As mentioned before in my previous posts, that's just IMHO.

 

 

[comicinvestor-migration]

Just in case you think I'm skirting the question, I'm not. I truly believe there was a huge reason why Marvel decided to introduce two characters like Wolverine and Punisher.

 

These two guys were very different than Marvel's current stable of mainstream characters, in that Punisher was basically a killer with a flawed sense of morality, and Wolverine was a psychopath (even in #181) who sliced and diced anything in his path. Check out the scene in Hulk 181 where he gives Wendigo everything he's got and is amazed the creature is still breathing.

 

These two characters were so different from Spidey, FF, etc. it wasn't funny, and these guys did follow along the path that Conan blazed, and I really doubt Marvel would have given them the go if a certain sword-wielding, head-slicing Cimmerian wasn't burning up the sales charts in the early 70's.

 

And as far as the Punisher is concerned at least, he's always been a popular character. The letter pages at that time called for his return on a monthly basis and Overstreet noted his first appearance not long after.

 

I think what you're getting at is "valuation" as opposed to popularity, which is a whole different animal and based more on timing than on how many people liked a given character.

 

You do realize that in 1988, Fantastic Four #48 was a $20 book, Hulk #181 was $25, Amazing Spider-man #50 was $10, and Amazing Spider-man #129 was under $20?

 

By contrast, Punisher #1 Limited Series was $12 and rising.

 

That was right at the end of the "first issue" craze, where no character debut was worth a lot if it wasn't also a first issue. The rise in prices in 1988-on had nothing to do with popularity and everything to do with buying trends turning 180 degrees towards first appearances.

 

Knowledge is power alright.

[supapimp]

As in regard to prices in 1988, yeah i remember...i remember that ASM 1 and FF 1 were at or around $1K too. If only i was my age now back then, i would've hoarded all those books. As for "Check out the scene in Hulk 181 where he gives Wendigo everything he's got and is amazed the creature is still breathing." Wendigo was a native american spirit/legend, of course he couldn't die. And for this comment "These two guys were very different than Marvel's current stable of mainstream characters" what about Galactus and the Silver Surfer in 1966, weren't they totally different than anything else in the Marvel universe at the time? I do recall it was voted as the best Marvel storyline ever written FF 48-FF 50. With great power comes great responsibility

[comicinvestor-migration]

Or let's look at it another way, especially since GS X-Men #1 was released in 1975 and ASM #129 and Hulk #181 didn't expode until 1989 (14 years later):

 

Most of the major Bronze Age characters like Wolverine, Punisher, Werewolf, Deathlok, Luke Cage, Dracula, etc. all languished at low Guide values until 1989-90 or so, so by using the bizarro "valuation = Age" argument, couldn't Amazing Spider-man #300 actually be the start of the Bronze Age, since the rising prices on Venom's first app. had a lot to do with collectors looking back and re-valuing other first appearances.

 

No wait, it was The Infinity Gauntlet, since that took Silver Surfer, Thanos and Warlock from relative "valuation obscurity" and turned them into high-dollar books.

 

Hold on, maybe it was New Mutants #87, which along with ASM #300 helped push the "first appearance" Silver/Bronze valuation to new heights.

 

Wait a minute, maybe it was....

 

Here's you argument in a nutshell: GS X-Men #1 was released too late to be the cause of any major Bronze Age character or book, so you're saying it's the start of the Bronze Age because 14 years later some of the Bronze Age books caught a trend and rose in value?

 

That must be the "Time-Release Bronze Age" start point, waiting a full 14 years to take effect.

[comicinvestor-migration]

As you can see, we're the only two people talking about this, long after everyone esle tired to trying to sway you from your CBG devotion. It should be quite obvious that no matter which comic you espouse to be the start of the Bronze Age (Conan 1, ASM #121-122, Marvel Feature/Spotlight/Premiere 1, etc.) that Giant-Size X-Men ain't it.

 

Since it is obviously not this obvious to you even in the face of overwhelming evidence, you'll probably never be convinced otherwise and I'll just have to stop trying, as the others have done.

[supapimp]

Comic Investors,

 

That's what makes comic books so great, it certainly creates basis for a healthy debate.

 

post on,

 

pimpster

[comicinvestor-migration]

Okay, let's start this off on a different angle.

 

A Comic Age is usually started by a book or character (s) that paves the way for a swift and sudden change in in the comic landscape. It may not be the most important or the best of the era, but it does give everything that follows a good kick start.

 

When Conan appeared around 1970, what did we have at Marvel and DC? Essentially goodie-two-shoes heroes who went out of their way not to really hurt villains, and vice versa for the villains. That was really a Silver Age influence over the more violent Golden Age characters.

 

Now Conan burst onto the scene, slicing and dicing villains, monsters and all manner of devil-spawn up, right there on the comic's page. This was like Golden Age Batman with a big sword and a bigger attitude, chopping up anything that came across his path.

 

Now not every character that followed Conan was a direct result of this trend, just as not every comic that followed Showcase #4 or FF #1 had a 100% direct link, but these two Silver Age comics did provide that spark for a new direction, just as Conan did.

 

After Conan, we have lots of edgy characters (which is really what the Bronze Age is all about) like Morbius (this guy killed people right on-panel), Werewolf by Night (same deal) and Dracula (duh!), not to mention demon-spawned and pseudo-eveil characters like Ghost Rider and Son of Satan. Kull is a no-brainer link to Conan as well.

 

Then later on we have two of THE major Bronze Age icons: Wolverine and Punisher. It's irrelevant that either book increased or decreased in value in 1989, but Marvel brought them out in 1974 for a reason, and that reason was not GS X-Men #1. Wolverne and Punisher both did what Conan could easily do in the Hyborrian (sp?) Age, except these "villain killers" were simply updated for 1974 with claw and shotgun replacing sword. Add the death-dealing Deathlok (have you tallied the body count in his 1975-76 mags?) and Man-Wolf to the equation and you have a helluva lot of Conan-like characters emerging in a short period of time.

 

And let's not forget about the Titan who sought the very hand of Death herself: Thanos. That boy was prepared to kill bilions if necessary and was one of the most evil and conscience-less villains ever created.

 

Even characters like Luke Cage, Man-Thing, Living Mummy, Golem, etc. are definitely amoral and rode a thin line between hero and villain.

 

This was the Bronze Age at its best, and while Conan #1 may not encompass every single Bronze Age character or concept, neither did Action #1, Showcase #4 or FF #1. What these key books did was provide the initial concept that gave the Age its direction and pushed it on to greatness.

 

In terms of an overriding theme for the Bronze Age, edgy and amoral characters, increased violence and realism, along with a preoccupation with death and dealing it out, were the definite order of the day for the Bronze Age.