This One Is For Murph0 - Bronze Age CGC "Upgrade"

[Murph]

I usually do. It might make it easier if you didn't include my name in the title. Seems kinda stupid to say someone's name and then tell them to not read the thread.

Yeh, you definately don't have any sort of agenda here. You are simply the messenger boy. Don't shoot the messenger right?

 

Brian

[OldGuy]

I usually do.

 

You sure do reply in a lot of them.

 

It might make it easier if you didn't include my name in the title. Seems kinda stupid to say someone's name and then tell them to not read the thread.

 

At the time I posted it I wasn't aware of the fact that you had a personal problem with me or the subject. I will be more then happy to not mention your name in the titles of my threads if it will keep you out of them.

 

Yeh, you definately don't have any sort of agenda here. You are simply the messenger boy. Don't shoot the messenger right?

 

My agenda is simply to keep people informed. Clearly it's appreciated by many and for obvious reasons it upsets some. Is CGC "evil"? No. I think they are great for the hobby. Is Heritage "evil"? No, I think they are interested in the bottom dollar over anything else and as a result it's clouding their vision. Will I continue to buy comics from them? Yup, but not with blinders on.

 

Your "messenger" quote is accurate. I'm posting scans of auctions/comics where I think I see a problem. Sometimes there is clearly a problem. Sometimes there may not be a problem. And many fall someplace in between. Sometimes I make mistakes, sometimes I don't. Kind of like CGC. You seem willing enough to forgive them when they make a mistake. Why not extend the same courtesy to others?

 

But, because you're not reading this I don't really expect a reply.

[Arty]

The idea is to make people aware of what's happening.

 

Brian you collect ASM in NM or better. Do you check if the books you are bidding on have been resubmitted?

 

You might have been interested in this book for example (if it didn't have writing on cover or if you don't have that book already?).

 

ASM 19 NM 9.4 white mountain

 

same book in NM- 9.2

 

[Murph]

Yeh, I already knew of that one. I have no problem with a jump between 8.5-9.2, 9.2-9.4 or anything of that nature. Grading is subjective, you won't get the same grade 10 out of 10 times.

 

Brian

[THE_BEYONDER]

Grading is subjective, you won't get the same grade 10 out of 10 times.

 

True. But, with the price differences between 8.5/9.2 and 9.2/9.4....don't you think we should?

[Murph]

The bidders make the price.

 

Brian

[OldGuy]

The bidders make the price.

 

Brian

 

Based on......

[Darthdiesel]

I love it! Find me a modern resub that's been tampered with too...I'm feeling left out since no one wants to lay with my moderns

 

Shoot, if only I could "fix" my water damaged price variants

[Illiterati-migration]

Grading is subjective, you won't get the same grade 10 out of 10 times.

 

True. But, with the price differences between 8.5/9.2 and 9.2/9.4....don't you think we should?

 

Look, I am the type of collector who will spend 5, 10, 20 times the guide value of a book because it is certified "high grade" by CGC and CGC alone. Obviously CGC can do no wrong, Heritage is on the up-and-up, Comic-Keys is a villain, and the system is entirely secure. I have overspent-- er, dropped (and in some cases MADE-- thank you, Wolverine-Book-Of-The-Week CGC 10.0!) wayyyy too much money on supposedly high grade books for you to ever convince me otherwise.

 

Hell, can you imagine how much money I will have utterly WASTED if CGC-graded books were to tank in the eyes of my fellow collectors??

 

Sure would suck if we ended up like those baseball card guys a few years ago...

[jbud73]

I think the point being made over and over is that some, if not all of the books that Old Guy is posting are not simple resubs, there are techniques at work here aimed at improving the grade while avoiding the PLOD.

 

These conversations are important because they speak to the foundation of grading criteria, definitions of restoration and ability to consistently apply these defintions to comic books. I agree you will not always get the same grade but its starting to go a little deeper than that. Personally I'm surprised that the people who are invested heavily in CGC as an entity and standard are not asking tough questions more often than they do. By invested I mean ppl who have big $$$ in big books.

 

It would seem to me, that if manipulation is going on that will have an effect on the marketplace as books go up in the census, since the books you own don't appreciate in a vacuum, meaning their ascribed value is somewhat tied to similar books of lesser, or greater grades then the implications for your HG collection are obvious are they not?? Maybe its just me but alot of these ideas share correlates of one another and have dependent relationships........... I'm sure Delekste can expand on the economic principles at play here from a practical and theoretical perspective and I would welcome his and other comments that are so far absent from the arguemnts - Mr. Borock's for example.

[Darthdiesel]

Hell, can you imagine how much money I will have utterly WASTED if CGC-graded books were to tank in the eyes of my fellow collectors??

 

 

I can't remember the last time I sold a CGC book for multiples of guide to a forum member? 2002, the latest? Actually all my recent sales to forumites (my fellow collectors) have been for off the shelf books, raw, at cover or less? So even if you, my fellow collectors all decide to leave the hobby because of resubmits, how does it affect my bottom line? IT DOESN'T... I'm going after those who want to get back into reading moderns after a long hiatus If I can sell off some high grade CGcs to those who want them, then the more the merrier...

[garthgantu]

I think the point being made over and over is that some, if not all of the books that Old Guy is posting are not simple resubs, there are techniques at work here aimed at improving the grade while avoiding the PLOD.

 

These conversations are important because they speak to the foundation of grading criteria, definitions of restoration and ability to consistently apply these defintions to comic books. I agree you will not always get the same grade but its starting to go a little deeper than that. Personally I'm surprised that the people who are invested heavily in CGC as an entity and standard are not asking tough questions more often than they do. By invested I mean ppl who have big $$$ in big books.

 

It would seem to me, that if manipulation is going on that will have an effect on the marketplace as books go up in the census, since the books you own don't appreciate in a vacuum, meaning their ascribed value is somewhat tied to similar books of lesser, or greater grades then the implications for your HG collection are obvious are they not??

 

Well said! If you're buying these books, don't you feel slightly gypped if you find out the 9.4 you paid 5x guide for was bought three months earlier by someone with an industrial press, for 80% of guide when it was an 8.5 ? At the least, aren't you interested in figuring out exactly how it's done, so if push comes to shove and you have to do this to your own books, you'll know HOW ? If your books start dropping in value because there's some artificial increase in the HG #s of some books in the census, won't you be p*ssed?

[Illiterati-migration]

Hell, can you imagine how much money I will have utterly WASTED if CGC-graded books were to tank in the eyes of my fellow collectors??

 

 

I can't remember the last time I sold a CGC book for multiples of guide to a forum member? 2002, the latest? Actually all my recent sales to forumites (my fellow collectors) have been for off the shelf books, raw, at cover or less? So even if you, my fellow collectors all decide to leave the hobby because of resubmits, how does it affect my bottom line? IT DOESN'T... I'm going after those who want to get back into reading moderns after a long hiatus If I can sell off some high grade CGcs to those who want them, then the more the merrier...

 

Who said that my statement applies only to Moderns? Hell, who said it was even directed at you?

[delekkerste]

It would seem to me, that if manipulation is going on that will have an effect on the marketplace as books go up in the census... I'm sure Delekste can expand on the economic principles at play here from a practical and theoretical perspective and I would welcome his and other comments that are so far absent from the arguemnts

 

From a collecting perspective, I have to say I'm very disturbed by this recent trend of cleaning, pressing and tweaking everything in sight. Some may argue that it's OK because "it doesn't add anything to the book", but is a book that's been Wonder Breaded, steamed and mashed under heavy weight to gain its appearance (which may not even be permanent) really as good as a book that's been well cared for and naturally looks beautiful? Is a book that was an 8.5 a few months ago and is now a 9.2 really as good as a book that's been a 9.2 from start to finish?

 

Also, does everyone that is going to such great lengths to extract more dollars from collectors have the integrity not to try and get away with a little trimming or other no-no behavior to extract even more money? I'm not a Hammer supporter, but I have to say that some of the scans he's showing on the CPG message board strongly suggest that at least a few people are getting away with book-altering restoration on top of cleaning and pressing. I'm not going to indulge in his anti-CGC conspiracy theories, but I do think there may be some unscrupulous/greedy dealers and expert restorers who may have succeeded in sneaking restored books by CGC.

 

From an investment perspective, get-rich-quick schemes (like the cleaning & pressing) and outright fraud (like the trimming) are part and parcel of market manias. Fear is absent and greed is pervasive. I'd be surprised if we weren't seeing this kind of monkey business at this stage of the bubble.

 

Gene

[jbud73]

Thanks for the 2-cents Gene, sorry I always miss a few letters in your nickname there. I havent been to the CPG boards in quite some time as I spend enough time here - people will begin to suspect that I have no life outside of comic collecting.

[AtomicPaul-migration]

The CPG message forums :

 

http://comicspriceguide.com/forum2/default.asp (can I put that link here??)

 

are a distant second best due to the cumulative knowledge of this Forum being much greater. Fantasy Football posts there sometimes and lends knowledgeable facts, and there are a few others that appear to have considerable hobby acumen, but on a whole, the activity and thread quality are way behind this Forum. On a whole, alot more Watercooler-type posts. I spend 1/50th the amount of time reading posts there that I do here.

[Murph]

The only reason you might know it was an 8.5 was the ability to trace it's history. Just because you can't trace the history of a raw book sold on eBay doesn't mean it's always the exact same grade.

 

Brian

[Mephisto]

The CPG message forums :

 

http://comicspriceguide.com/forum2/default.asp (can I put that link here??)

 

are a distant second best due to the cumulative knowledge of this Forum being much greater. Fantasy Football posts there sometimes and lends knowledgeable facts, and there are a few others that appear to have considerable hobby acumen, but on a whole, the activity and thread quality are way behind this Forum. On a whole, alot more Watercooler-type posts. I spend 1/50th the amount of time reading posts there that I do here.

 

Yup the back issue discussion is virutally non existant. If you want GA discussion about the only thing is Hammer's Heritage anaylsis of those issue and sometimes Kryptonitescomics might scan one up. Someone asked where I've been on there and I just said I was busy with school and not interested in discussion of whether The Passion of Chirst will make more at the box office than Spider-Man did.

[blowout]

From an investment perspective, get-rich-quick schemes (like the cleaning & pressing) and outright fraud (like the trimming) are part and parcel of market manias. Fear is absent and greed is pervasive. I'd be surprised if we weren't seeing this kind of monkey business at this stage of the bubble.

 

Another sign of the impending cr..., ah forget it.

[FFB]

Most of the people who post on the CPG forums are meatheads (CPG moderators not included in the meatheads comment). Hammer and the occasional visitor from these CGC boards are the only ones who post anything worth reading.

 

The CPG message forums :

 

http://comicspriceguide.com/forum2/default.asp (can I put that link here??)

 

are a distant second best due to the cumulative knowledge of this Forum being much greater. Fantasy Football posts there sometimes and lends knowledgeable facts, and there are a few others that appear to have considerable hobby acumen, but on a whole, the activity and thread quality are way behind this Forum. On a whole, alot more Watercooler-type posts. I spend 1/50th the amount of time reading posts there that I do here.