10 years since the "crash"... so what caused it?

[Garf]

Lastly on "Flipping". Forget comics all together, and look at what flipping really is. Flipping is a form of arbitrage, finding an inefficiency in a market, and taking advantage of it to make money. In this case, buying comics cheap from a source (either via better knowledge ahead of time, or access to things other people dont know about/dont have), and then selling them to the broader market as a whole (Ebay/etc).

 

These types of trades are great for early adopters, but once people see them making money, they say "i can do that too". The number of people doing it increases, which dilutes the profit and margins of all. Eventually these arbitrage trades become so crowded that no one can make money, and the inefficiency in the market is removed.

 

The market originators (Image, etc) also try to increase their profit margins by catering to, or even creating, these inefficiencies. (Exclusives, limited print run variants, second printings instead of increasing the first, etc).

 

In more plain english you can summarize it thus. If every single person buying comics, is flipping them, then there is no end point left to actually buy and keep the books. The closer you get to that point, the more likely the bubble will burst.

 

Another great example, look at the board members who offer 9.8s subscriptions services. If one wants to acquire a 9.8 of every issue of a series, the market has no way of efficiently delivering it to them (requires many different steps and a high cost). These members recognized that fact, and create a means to deliver the service.

 

If it were easy to do, and hundreds of people were doing it. The price would fall to the point where no money was being made, and they would stop offering the service (in addition to obliterating the value of 9.8s).

 

Same thing for comics as a whole, or any market. Eventually too many people get in on a trade, and it collapses.

 

 

Well said.

 

The amount of people using ebay to profit from comics is certainly on the up; most notably LCS owners who realised a while back they can make a more there on certain comics compared to selling at either their B&M or online store. It's pretty easy for them to confidently shift volume in the current market.

 

If the bubble does burst (and it may not for quite some time yet) it's probably going to contract first before a last hurrah.

 

Personally I think that people who flip and move are not going to take much of a hit but like you said it may not yield a lot of profit in the end.

[NewEnglandGothic]

Finally, since there is nothing stopping them with coming into the hobby, should those of us who also flip these books (myself included) just see them as a new and naive customer base, or is that just contributing to another crash and burn?

 

I think any naive people, regardless of where they come from, only get burned once or twice before they figure it out. All customers should be viewed as a resource. Any of them that are getting milked due to ignorance are future lost sales.

 

Lastly on "Flipping". Forget comics all together, and look at what flipping really is. Flipping is a form of arbitrage, finding an inefficiency in a market, and taking advantage of it to make money. In this case, buying comics cheap from a source (either via better knowledge ahead of time, or access to things other people dont know about/dont have), and then selling them to the broader market as a whole (Ebay/etc).

 

These types of trades are great for early adopters, but once people see them making money, they say "i can do that too". The number of people doing it increases, which dilutes the profit and margins of all. Eventually these arbitrage trades become so crowded that no one can make money, and the inefficiency in the market is removed.

 

The market originators (Image, etc) also try to increase their profit margins by catering to, or even creating, these inefficiencies. (Exclusives, limited print run variants, second printings instead of increasing the first, etc).

 

In more plain english you can summarize it thus. If every single person buying comics, is flipping them, then there is no end point left to actually buy and keep the books. The closer you get to that point, the more likely the bubble will burst.

 

Another great example, look at the board members who offer 9.8s subscriptions services. If one wants to acquire a 9.8 of every issue of a series, the market has no way of efficiently delivering it to them (requires many different steps and a high cost). These members recognized that fact, and create a means to deliver the service.

 

If it were easy to do, and hundreds of people were doing it. The price would fall to the point where no money was being made, and they would stop offering the service (in addition to obliterating the value of 9.8s).

 

Same thing for comics as a whole, or any market. Eventually too many people get in on a trade, and it collapses.

 

 

Yeah, that was pretty good. (thumbs u

[Prince Namor]

Finally, since there is nothing stopping them with coming into the hobby, should those of us who also flip these books (myself included) just see them as a new and naive customer base, or is that just contributing to another crash and burn?

 

I think any naive people, regardless of where they come from, only get burned once or twice before they figure it out. All customers should be viewed as a resource. Any of them that are getting milked due to ignorance are future lost sales.

 

Lastly on "Flipping". Forget comics all together, and look at what flipping really is. Flipping is a form of arbitrage, finding an inefficiency in a market, and taking advantage of it to make money. In this case, buying comics cheap from a source (either via better knowledge ahead of time, or access to things other people dont know about/dont have), and then selling them to the broader market as a whole (Ebay/etc).

 

These types of trades are great for early adopters, but once people see them making money, they say "i can do that too". The number of people doing it increases, which dilutes the profit and margins of all. Eventually these arbitrage trades become so crowded that no one can make money, and the inefficiency in the market is removed.

 

The market originators (Image, etc) also try to increase their profit margins by catering to, or even creating, these inefficiencies. (Exclusives, limited print run variants, second printings instead of increasing the first, etc).

 

In more plain english you can summarize it thus. If every single person buying comics, is flipping them, then there is no end point left to actually buy and keep the books. The closer you get to that point, the more likely the bubble will burst.

 

Another great example, look at the board members who offer 9.8s subscriptions services. If one wants to acquire a 9.8 of every issue of a series, the market has no way of efficiently delivering it to them (requires many different steps and a high cost). These members recognized that fact, and create a means to deliver the service.

 

If it were easy to do, and hundreds of people were doing it. The price would fall to the point where no money was being made, and they would stop offering the service (in addition to obliterating the value of 9.8s).

 

Same thing for comics as a whole, or any market. Eventually too many people get in on a trade, and it collapses.

 

 

 

A beautiful summary.

 

To take it a step further...

Speculation is the cloud of illusion that makes us believe there's so much more interest now in comics. It's pumping up the numbers in ways that are only of temporary benefit to the publisher's. Just like 20 years ago.

 

The REAL numbers don't lie.

 

An independent creator, even using a publisher like Image will get tired of the process of creating a title, having it spike with the first issue because of speculation and then quickly drop into the 7-12,000 print run. The cost of doing it themselves, as well as the work involved in doing it themselves, for what little income they make will just drive them to other ways to earn a living.

 

Mike Allred probably makes more money doing one issue of Daredevil for Marvel than he does in 6 months of publishing his own character Madman (not to mention the financial responsibilities, paperwork, accounting, etc.) and really, are we a better hobby for that?

 

If our hobby was REALLY in a healthy mode it would be able to support BOTH types of books.

 

But Marvel and DC will continue to glut the market and push those books out of the way; speculation will continue to give the hobby a false sense of what's really going on, and sooner or later we'll be stuck with even less Brand OCD collectors propping up the BIG TWO just enough to stay in business.

 

Walking Dead is an anomaly. Fatale and Saga are the exception to the rule; and even with the star power involved with those books, will they really make it past 15-20 issues? Very little out there has.

Look at the work Valiant did to promote those books, and now with the 3rd issues coming out we already see it settling into the 15,000 print run range. Can they survive at that?

Don't we need new publishers like that?

 

Marvel and DC can continue to reboot and do anniversary's and crossovers, etc.; but what does a publisher like Valiant do? Reboot every three issues? The odds are against them, even with a rabid fan base. Heck, the odds are against Grant Morrison as one of most followed writer's in comics, and I'd bet anything 'Happy' won't ever make it to 15 issues.

 

Something has to change to bring more readers into this hobby. READERS who aren't hypnotized by characters from Marvel and DC and have been conditioned to follow that god awful mess of continuity that was long ago unworthy of support.

Right now we have the Brand OCD collectors, the speculators, and a small portion of readers looking, and hoping for better. But not enough to support it.

 

Something HAS to bring more people to this hobby. And it's NOT speculation. We've already seen how that works out. It's going to be a bad deal if we go through it again.

[Beige]

Another point is that there seem to be a lot of people rushing out to buy #2 #3 #4 etc in big numbers, and then reprints of those issues.

#2 editions,unless it becomes a remarkable comic where some people just HAVE to have every copy, generally are worth less,as is #3 compared to #2 etc etc.

Reprints of #1's have a very limited resale value.

Reprints of any other copy are financially worthless.

If you are sitting on 10 x 2nd print 'Revival #1, 10 x 2nd print #2

10 x 3rd print #2 etc etc - congrats you have about 100 x 10c comics.

At best.

Not my money,but I wince when I calculate some guys on here have 100 copies of reprints (not specific variants,just the same comic with a dif coloured cover).

Thats $350 worth of books that have turned into $10.00 the second they left the store.Publishers,whilst needing to make money,should stop this nonsence because when these people realise they basically have done their money stone cold will leave and not be back for a long,long time.

After dumping 100's of comics into 10c bins and onto ebay.

Just my - nobody get their panties in a bunch please - your cash,you do what you like with it.

[CBT]

A beautiful summary.

 

To take it a step further...

Speculation is the cloud of illusion that makes us believe there's so much more interest now in comics. It's pumping up the numbers in ways that are only of temporary benefit to the publisher's. Just like 20 years ago.

 

The REAL numbers don't lie.

 

An independent creator, even using a publisher like Image will get tired of the process of creating a title, having it spike with the first issue because of speculation and then quickly drop into the 7-12,000 print run. The cost of doing it themselves, as well as the work involved in doing it themselves, for what little income they make will just drive them to other ways to earn a living.

 

Mike Allred probably makes more money doing one issue of Daredevil for Marvel than he does in 6 months of publishing his own character Madman (not to mention the financial responsibilities, paperwork, accounting, etc.) and really, are we a better hobby for that?

 

If our hobby was REALLY in a healthy mode it would be able to support BOTH types of books.

 

But Marvel and DC will continue to glut the market and push those books out of the way; speculation will continue to give the hobby a false sense of what's really going on, and sooner or later we'll be stuck with even less Brand OCD collectors propping up the BIG TWO just enough to stay in business.

 

Walking Dead is an anomaly. Fatale and Saga are the exception to the rule; and even with the star power involved with those books, will they really make it past 15-20 issues? Very little out there has.

Look at the work Valiant did to promote those books, and now with the 3rd issues coming out we already see it settling into the 15,000 print run range. Can they survive at that?

Don't we need new publishers like that?

 

Marvel and DC can continue to reboot and do anniversary's and crossovers, etc.; but what does a publisher like Valiant do? Reboot every three issues? The odds are against them, even with a rabid fan base. Heck, the odds are against Grant Morrison as one of most followed writer's in comics, and I'd bet anything 'Happy' won't ever make it to 15 issues.

 

Something has to change to bring more readers into this hobby. READERS who aren't hypnotized by characters from Marvel and DC and have been conditioned to follow that god awful mess of continuity that was long ago unworthy of support.

Right now we have the Brand OCD collectors, the speculators, and a small portion of readers looking, and hoping for better. But not enough to support it.

 

Something HAS to bring more people to this hobby. And it's NOT speculation. We've already seen how that works out. It's going to be a bad deal if we go through it again.

 

Thanks for the compliment (and to everyone else as well). I agree with the premises you are laying down here, but I do feel I need to add one point, and defend one as well.

 

The addition I would add, and what is VERY different this time (, though the outcome likely wont be), is that comics have moved from a singular sphere of influence(namely comic books) into a cross-media phenomenon (comic books, trades, digitals, tv shows, movies, merchandising for said tv/movie stuff).

The big two are *spoon*ing where they eat, yes. The variant nonsense and events are definitely there to push sales and maintain market dominance. But the constant reboots, and their overall marketing scheme, is FAR more interested in trying to bring the TV and MOVIE audiences to comics, than focused on milking the existing fan base.

Marvel makes FAR more money from its movies and related merchandise now, than they could possibly hope to make selling comic books. It's Billions versus Millions and its no contest. The size of that audience dwarfs the comic book readers. Marvel's dream is to unite them as one, and DC wants to get the Movies going so it can chase the same holy grail.

 

The spike in Creator owned comics is chasing the same Eldorado dream. Kirkman is the mold, and if you think those other guys are making their own comics and not dreaming of the royalties that could come from tv or movie rights, you are fooling yourself. I think it is the TV and Movie chasing that will keep the "bubble" going far long than many think possible. In fact, I think world economics/affairs, monetary policy, interest rates, etc, are for more likely to limit this market (and all others), before it out right collapses on its own.

 

 

 

The point of defense I would make, is of the reader/customer of the Big 2. I am one of those guys, and while its nice to add some diversity from Image, IDW, Dark Horse, etc, the big 2 are the big 2 for a reason.

Their characters arent accidents, they didnt get followers by being the next "hot" book whom speculators happened to end up enjoying. (little bit of an Image dig there). The characters of the Big 2 came to be popular by, in a way, the free market. The Big 2 have decades of creating new characters, and putting them out there. The ones people like, and ask for more of, they get more. We the comic readers, for decades, have helped shape and form these characters by our choices and demands.

 

To use your example, Daredevil vs Madman. Personally, it's no contest which I'd rather read about. He SHOULD be able to make more money making a Daredevil comic, because far far more people WANT a daredevil comic book. The big two take a ton of slack, and some of it rightly so. But they made comics what they are, with the characters decades of readers have supported. Without the Big 2 the medium wouldnt exist, and companies like Image could never have come to be.

[DeliBebek]

As I'm reading it here, before the crash, buyers were buying comics with the idea of turning quick profits. Did they stop buying because of the crash, or was the crash caused by so many buyers suddenly not buying?

[dupont2005]

Their characters arent accidents, they didnt get followers by being the next "hot" book whom speculators happened to end up enjoying. (little bit of an Image dig there). The characters of the Big 2 came to be popular by, in a way, the free market. The Big 2 have decades of creating new characters, and putting them out there. The ones people like, and ask for more of, they get more. We the comic readers, for decades, have helped shape and form these characters by our choices and demands.

Well, Seduction Of The Innocent, the Comics Code, comic book witch hunts, and the 1954 comic book hearings, along with underhanded litigation, distribution monopolies, and shady business tactics in the early days is what really made the Big Two the Big Two. Spiderman isn't so much greater than The Spirit, or Tracy, or the Cryptkeeper, or any number of characters and titles in the early days of national comic book distribution. They played the game better, they didn't necessarily make better comics. The same is true for today.

[500Club]

As I'm reading it here, before the crash, buyers were buying comics with the idea of turning quick profits. Did they stop buying because of the crash, or was the crash caused by so many buyers suddenly not buying?

It was a bit more complex than that, but that was a large part of it. The publishers also lost sight of the big picture in the rush for short term sales.

[Muaythai607]

the print runs were ridiculous in the 90's remember all those people that bought all those over printed valiant books and also spawn.. then those return of superman was a real bust!!!! the death of superman, I believe started the whole comic book craze in the 90s.. What started it in this era??

 

maybe Walking dead?

 

We sure do have a huge image following these days..

[Underground44]

As I'm reading it here, before the crash, buyers were buying comics with the idea of turning quick profits. Did they stop buying because of the crash, or was the crash caused by so many buyers suddenly not buying?

 

I think people started realizing that their books that they were investing in were not going to rise in price or pay of their mortgage. They weren't REAL comic book enthusiasts and they jumped ship.

I suspect the same would happen today if the modern books we are buying now were rendered worthless tomorrow. I'd still buy the same books but not multiple copies.

[Prince Namor]

A beautiful summary.

 

To take it a step further...

Speculation is the cloud of illusion that makes us believe there's so much more interest now in comics. It's pumping up the numbers in ways that are only of temporary benefit to the publisher's. Just like 20 years ago.

 

The REAL numbers don't lie.

 

An independent creator, even using a publisher like Image will get tired of the process of creating a title, having it spike with the first issue because of speculation and then quickly drop into the 7-12,000 print run. The cost of doing it themselves, as well as the work involved in doing it themselves, for what little income they make will just drive them to other ways to earn a living.

 

Mike Allred probably makes more money doing one issue of Daredevil for Marvel than he does in 6 months of publishing his own character Madman (not to mention the financial responsibilities, paperwork, accounting, etc.) and really, are we a better hobby for that?

 

If our hobby was REALLY in a healthy mode it would be able to support BOTH types of books.

 

But Marvel and DC will continue to glut the market and push those books out of the way; speculation will continue to give the hobby a false sense of what's really going on, and sooner or later we'll be stuck with even less Brand OCD collectors propping up the BIG TWO just enough to stay in business.

 

Walking Dead is an anomaly. Fatale and Saga are the exception to the rule; and even with the star power involved with those books, will they really make it past 15-20 issues? Very little out there has.

Look at the work Valiant did to promote those books, and now with the 3rd issues coming out we already see it settling into the 15,000 print run range. Can they survive at that?

Don't we need new publishers like that?

 

Marvel and DC can continue to reboot and do anniversary's and crossovers, etc.; but what does a publisher like Valiant do? Reboot every three issues? The odds are against them, even with a rabid fan base. Heck, the odds are against Grant Morrison as one of most followed writer's in comics, and I'd bet anything 'Happy' won't ever make it to 15 issues.

 

Something has to change to bring more readers into this hobby. READERS who aren't hypnotized by characters from Marvel and DC and have been conditioned to follow that god awful mess of continuity that was long ago unworthy of support.

Right now we have the Brand OCD collectors, the speculators, and a small portion of readers looking, and hoping for better. But not enough to support it.

 

Something HAS to bring more people to this hobby. And it's NOT speculation. We've already seen how that works out. It's going to be a bad deal if we go through it again.

 

Thanks for the compliment (and to everyone else as well). I agree with the premises you are laying down here, but I do feel I need to add one point, and defend one as well.

 

The addition I would add, and what is VERY different this time (, though the outcome likely wont be), is that comics have moved from a singular sphere of influence(namely comic books) into a cross-media phenomenon (comic books, trades, digitals, tv shows, movies, merchandising for said tv/movie stuff).

The big two are *spoon*ing where they eat, yes. The variant nonsense and events are definitely there to push sales and maintain market dominance. But the constant reboots, and their overall marketing scheme, is FAR more interested in trying to bring the TV and MOVIE audiences to comics, than focused on milking the existing fan base.

Marvel makes FAR more money from its movies and related merchandise now, than they could possibly hope to make selling comic books. It's Billions versus Millions and its no contest. The size of that audience dwarfs the comic book readers. Marvel's dream is to unite them as one, and DC wants to get the Movies going so it can chase the same holy grail.

 

Well, the re-numbering, the gimmicks, the reboots started before the movies became a part of the equation, and it was done as a way ramp up sales. They may say that today it's done to rope in new readers because of the movies, but the truth is, they do it even when there is no movie, so it's pretty apparent to me what the reasoning is. Marvel and DC both, as publishers, get from the parent company the guidelines and mandates as far as what they can and can't do with the characters, but if the publishing side of it is to continue to exist, (and in some form or another it will, due to the overall picture) they have to try increase the value of the published comics. It's that need to push the sales, as opposed to pushing the creative process that makes comics what they are today. Some kind of glossy dumbed down lottery ticket for crack addicts.

 

The spike in Creator owned comics is chasing the same Eldorado dream. Kirkman is the mold, and if you think those other guys are making their own comics and not dreaming of the royalties that could come from tv or movie rights, you are fooling yourself. I think it is the TV and Movie chasing that will keep the "bubble" going far long than many think possible. In fact, I think world economics/affairs, monetary policy, interest rates, etc, are for more likely to limit this market (and all others), before it out right collapses on its own.

 

BECAUSE the Big Two have created this market as it currently is, from as far back as having a hand in eliminating the biggest selling titles in the country through the use of the wording of the comics code, the BELIEF is that you need to get a movie deal to really make it in the business today. That's why there's so much of a difference in this country between mainstream and small press. And when I say small press, I don't mean Image, I mean like Fantagraphics and Drawn and Quarterly.

The Hernandez Brothers are successful. Chris Ware is successful. Charles Burns is successful. Not because of a movie. Not because of a monthly comic. But because they were able to stay true to their art, continue to be published, and not feel the need to live up to the 'rock star status' that guys like McFarlane and Liefeld made the mainstream industry feel should be the norm.

It's a shame that small press comics don't have the exposure that the mainstream comics do. It might actually expand the readership. It might bring in more female readers. It might expand the hobby as we know it.

 

The point of defense I would make, is of the reader/customer of the Big 2. I am one of those guys, and while its nice to add some diversity from Image, IDW, Dark Horse, etc, the big 2 are the big 2 for a reason.

Their characters arent accidents, they didnt get followers by being the next "hot" book whom speculators happened to end up enjoying. (little bit of an Image dig there). The characters of the Big 2 came to be popular by, in a way, the free market. The Big 2 have decades of creating new characters, and putting them out there. The ones people like, and ask for more of, they get more. We the comic readers, for decades, have helped shape and form these characters by our choices and demands.

 

If you believe it's been a free market in this hobby, you probably need to read a little bit more about it's history.

 

To use your example, Daredevil vs Madman. Personally, it's no contest which I'd rather read about. He SHOULD be able to make more money making a Daredevil comic, because far far more people WANT a daredevil comic book. The big two take a ton of slack, and some of it rightly so. But they made comics what they are, with the characters decades of readers have supported. Without the Big 2 the medium wouldnt exist, and companies like Image could never have come to be.

 

Really? If you take away the speculators, the Brand OCD collectors, the numerical completionist collectors, and the additional copies sold through the unfair monopolization of the newsstand market, is it really all that different? Maybe YOU would still choose Daredevil or Nova or whatever, but why? Familiarity? Habit? Is it really THAT good? If it is, why do they keep restarting it. Hasn't been a Daredevil movie in almost 10 years.

If you read a Grisham novel and like it, should you just not take a chance and check out any other Thrillers? Any other genre's? Just continue buying the next Grisham novel, regardless of content?

What if the book publishing industry was controlled by just two publsiher's who ONLY printed Thrillers and tried to block of other genre's and publishers? Wouldn't the outside competition of the DIVERSITY of other media slowly erode the people who read books?

We're an entertainment source, that is stifled by two publishers, continuing to dumb down the content with rehashed superhero non-sense. It's NOT in our best interest.

As an art form, it's NOT in our best interest.

As a business decision it's NOT in our best interest.

And really, even as far as making movies, it's not like 95% of the people shelling out money to see it give two 's about the comics.

[RockMyAmadeus]

As I'm reading it here, before the crash, buyers were buying comics with the idea of turning quick profits. Did they stop buying because of the crash, or was the crash caused by so many buyers suddenly not buying?

 

[the blob]

 

 

The TPB presents them a complete story as easy as that. You're right, it's not someone who would have been buying back issues for $4. It's someone who doesn't buy back issues at all.

 

--------------

 

And likely someone who doesn't buy monthly floppies either (case in point, WD huge tpb sales). it is a different market (largely...i did buy wd tpbs because 1-20, etc. were too expensive), so however you slice it, a back issue market in the krapper does not help the publishers. when were they making money hand over fist? in 1990-1993 when the back issue market was doing great. it isn't either or.

[the blob]

An independent creator, even using a publisher like Image will get tired of the process of creating a title, having it spike with the first issue because of speculation and then quickly drop into the 7-12,000 print run. The cost of doing it themselves, as well as the work involved in doing it themselves, for what little income they make will just drive them to other ways to earn a living.

------------------------------

 

What does a creator take home (let's say he does the whole book himself) on 10K sales of a $2.99 comic publishing via image?

 

What does the writer take home on something like that (let's say they're splitting with the artist?..dunno how that works, like what was kirkman's take on WD?). Because let's be serious, a writer can probably handle 6 books a month.

 

It's all about multiple income streams. Take your paycheck from Marvel, publish your own book or three, etc.

[the blob]

the print runs were ridiculous in the 90's remember all those people that bought all those over printed valiant books and also spawn.. then those return of superman was a real bust!!!! the death of superman, I believe started the whole comic book craze in the 90s.. What started it in this era??

 

maybe Walking dead?

 

We sure do have a huge image following these days..

 

check out the print-runs on WD up to maybe issue 96 or 97. things started going up around then and i suspect they're dipping down now after the hysteria of 100.

 

the shocking part to me is that there wasn't MORE speculation of new WD issues. for criminey sake, i just sold a copy of #92, which came out DURING the show, for $30, either 93 or 94, i forget which, seems to go for like $15 or so, how is that possible? well, despite the show, print-runs on new issues had not gone up that much, despite the tpbs selling very well.

[the blob]

What provides some measure of protection is high cover prices. This makes a speculation gamble a big risk. It's not like a shop in the 90s buying an extra 100 copies of New Mutants 100 for 55 cents each or whatever the wholesale price was. It was hard to loose there because the market was such that they'd probably sell half of them for cover price (at least), which almost covered the cost for the whole extra 100, and if they had to toss the other 50 into the 50 cent box at a slight loss per issue, they'd still be making money overall.

 

Now, buying an extra 100 copies of a new book is going to be a $150-$200+ gamble. If it isn't a hit you could be stuck with 90-100 copies being tossed into the 50 cent box where you are losing $1-$1.50 even if you manage to sell them ALL for 50 cents.

 

In the early 90s you really had to make huge speculation purchases, particularly on high cover price books (see Turok 1! X-Men 1 premium edition, etc.) to be bankrupted. Now it just takes a few mistakes (like ordering an extra 200 copies of Skullkickers 2 --- repeat and rinse a few times with some others) for a store to not be able to make their rent. So shop owners are more cautious as are collector/flippers. It's the reason I bought ONE TOT 1 rather than 30 when it was a $3-$5 book, I didn't want to get stuck spending $90 on $15 worth of 50 cent box books if the trajectory changed on pricing quickly (which also happens with more frequency with the internet inspired market).

 

So, all in all, I think there are a lot of factors that will buffer against a repeat of the early 90s. Not to mention, contrary to popular board beliefs, it's not like every image #1 is a speculation hit....the ones that have been busts far outnumbers the ones that have gone up, and it's not just a failed series...Haunt #1 continues to be published, but it isn't a back issue winner. of course, it HAS to be that way, otherwise every image #1 would have a six figure print-run (which i suspect is what held haunt back as it was anticipated and purchased)

[the blob]

We're an entertainment source, that is stifled by two publishers, continuing to dumb down the content with rehashed superhero non-sense. It's NOT in our best interest.

-----------

 

Perhaps my shop(s) in NYC are a bit different, but the new comic racks are 30-35% Marvel, 25-30% DC and 30-35% "other" around here...dunno if 30-35% "other" reflects the overall market (probably not as I suspect a lot of smaller shops avoid carrying so much of the "other" outside of Spawn, WD, etc.)

[Prince Namor]

We're an entertainment source, that is stifled by two publishers, continuing to dumb down the content with rehashed superhero non-sense. It's NOT in our best interest.

-----------

 

Perhaps my shop(s) in NYC are a bit different, but the new comic racks are 30-35% Marvel, 25-30% DC and 30-35% "other" around here...dunno if 30-35% "other" reflects the overall market (probably not as I suspect a lot of smaller shops avoid carrying so much of the "other" outside of Spawn, WD, etc.)

 

Well it all depends on what 'other' consists of. It's not like Image doesn't do it's fair share of superheroes, IDW is superheroes and brand products, Dynamite the same... if 75% of 'other' is superhero/movie tie-ins, it still is lacking in diversity of subject matter compared to a real book store....

[Prince Namor]

An independent creator, even using a publisher like Image will get tired of the process of creating a title, having it spike with the first issue because of speculation and then quickly drop into the 7-12,000 print run. The cost of doing it themselves, as well as the work involved in doing it themselves, for what little income they make will just drive them to other ways to earn a living.

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What does a creator take home (let's say he does the whole book himself) on 10K sales of a $2.99 comic publishing via image?

 

What does the writer take home on something like that (let's say they're splitting with the artist?..dunno how that works, like what was kirkman's take on WD?). Because let's be serious, a writer can probably handle 6 books a month.

 

It's all about multiple income streams. Take your paycheck from Marvel, publish your own book or three, etc.

 

 

Yeah, a writer has it a little easier, but remember, it's usually the writer who is handling the administrative duties of an independent project because he does have more time. It still comes down to an artist having enough time to do it and still be able to handle other work. Not a lot of artists these days are able to handle multiple books in a month.

[Prince Namor]

the print runs were ridiculous in the 90's remember all those people that bought all those over printed valiant books and also spawn.. then those return of superman was a real bust!!!! the death of superman, I believe started the whole comic book craze in the 90s.. What started it in this era??

 

maybe Walking dead?

 

We sure do have a huge image following these days..

 

check out the print-runs on WD up to maybe issue 96 or 97. things started going up around then and i suspect they're dipping down now after the hysteria of 100.

 

the shocking part to me is that there wasn't MORE speculation of new WD issues. for criminey sake, i just sold a copy of #92, which came out DURING the show, for $30, either 93 or 94, i forget which, seems to go for like $15 or so, how is that possible? well, despite the show, print-runs on new issues had not gone up that much, despite the tpbs selling very well.

 

It's been a steady rise from fairly early on, and even after the #100 money grab it's the highest printed 'independent' comic in the low 50,000's. It's almost caught up to Amazing Spider-man which is hovering in the mid-60's. Truly an anomaly.