Ewert Book on Comic Link 1 1

[jbud73]

Frankly the argument that pressing alone will bring down the high grade market by itself is a little overstated. Every new collection pressed or unpressed coming into the market will potentially compete with what's already out there.

 

But let's not just punish the highest graded copy collector. Because let's look at what happens when a "It sold for how much" conversation takes place. Upgraders start running around and other guys start looking for equal graded copies. Being the first guy with the best copy will set the bar. Whether that bar is raised or dropped all depends on how the next copy is received.

 

Frankly I feel that Art collectors like having the only one. If it's a good piece there is no fear of another copy of the same piece coming to market. All they have to worry about is whether a flood of material from the same artist comes out.

 

And for the record Comic art collectors are just as BSD conscious as high grade comic collectors. While comic guys run around at shows with books under their arms they carry their portfolio's. A comic art collectors version of a pressed book is sticking another collector with his one of a kind art boat anchor. Disclosure - I liked the piece, doesn't mean anybody else does.

 

 

Bob I'd tend to agree with your first point about pressing bringing down the HG slab market being a tad overstated. I do believe that the precedent it sets (manipulation that is undetectable by CGC being acceptable in the marketplace) as having the potential to adversely effect the HG slab market to an irreparable degree . I guess it all depends on how many manipulation tactics can be implemented and pass through CGC and further how many of those become know to the public.

 

The longer I have collected OA the more I feel that comic book market comparisons are not applicable. I will say that I feel that High Grade Comics and your fellow dealers can only dream of the influence that the cabal of OA dealers enjoy. Imagine no CGC, no Overstreet, minuscule market data (Heritage is a bastion of light in the OA world in terms of determining market prices), all those trade deals. I mean can you imagine if 50% of the comic books for sale at High Grade, Metro and Clink were priced with (Inquire for price)

[nearmint]

I'm saying that your statement, "pressing is not a money making thing for me" is false, and that pressing has "no other effect on a comic other than making it flat" is also false.

 

Please explain to me, in great detail, how each of the above statements is false.

 

 

Well great detail should not be necessary. You stated that pressing has made you less than 5K over the past year, but the point is that it has made you money, so by definition you have made money.

 

Pressing has the ability to improve the technical grade of a comic and thereby increase its value, I'd call that a pretty significant effect in the context of the HG slab market given the established multiple differentials between 9.2 - 9.8.

As you yourself said earlier - $10,000 isn't much to a collector making $50 million dollars. I guess there is a point at which that degree of utility comes into play. In my case, from your perspective, 1% is that point. In other words, since 1% of my sales are affected by pressing my views can't be regarded as unbiased.

 

I call BS.

 

As for pressing...a press can only flatten a book. As you yourself have stated, it can't make you buy it.

 

As a proprietor of pressed comics books I'd question the objectivity of your opinion on the impact that manipulation tactics have, or how important that knowledge is to a collector of HG slabs. So I call BS too.

 

I'm not sure where I said pressing can make you buy a book. I think that pressing can make you buy a book regardless of the manipulation, or not buy a book. I don't think there are large numbers of collectors out there looking for pressed books as preferred examples.

 

This argument is essentially about proliferation of information. I think what David said earlier about collectors and dealers relating to pressing is generally, though not always true. For dealers manipulation has the potential to increase their revenue, for collectors it has the potential to decrease their monetary outlay, desire and utility of comic purchases. These perspectives will of course always be fundamentally at odds with one another. We have seen so many examples of this over the last few years; dealers trying to suppress manipulation information and collectors trying to increase their knowledge base of its occurrence.

 

For some collectors, yes, but others couldn't care less. I'm looking for a nice copy of Action #51 right now, and will happily pay the same for a pressed copy as an unpressed copy.

 

[adamstrange]

As a proprietor of pressed comics books I'd question the objectivity of your opinion on the impact that manipulation tactics have, or how important that knowledge is to a collector of HG slabs. So I call BS too.

It's fair to say that Mr Bedrock has a motivation to be biased towards pressing because of his sales.

It's fair to say that relative to what he makes off of comics both in back issues and retailing that the motivation is inconsequential.

 

I would contend it is unreasonable and, as a general admirer of your thoughtful posting, that it is unusual for you to press a point this far. I personally see no more reason to view his thoughts with any less authority than someone who might be disappointed due to having to back away from slab collecting due to a personal dislike of pressing.

[jbud73]

As a proprietor of pressed comics books I'd question the objectivity of your opinion on the impact that manipulation tactics have, or how important that knowledge is to a collector of HG slabs. So I call BS too.

It's fair to say that Mr Bedrock has a motivation to be biased towards pressing because of his sales.

It's fair to say that relative to what he makes off of comics both in back issues and retailing that the motivation is inconsequential.

 

I would contend it is unreasonable and, as a general admirer of your thoughtful posting, that it is unusual for you to press a point this far. I personally see no more reason to view his thoughts with any less authority than someone who might be disappointed due to having to back away from slab collecting due to a personal dislike of pressing.

 

While it may be out of character to call someone out, I am fundamentally opposed to opinions that seek to discredit the existence and discussion of comic manipulation in the HG slab market as whining or sermon laden elitism. That is especially true for vendors who profit from the enterprise. One may argue that the level of profit is a factor in considering the bias of the perspective, I however do not view that as an afforded luxury in this hobby. Comics are an unregulated market and unless the collectorate hold comic proprietors and their products to some level of accountability this hobby will continue to be a haven for unscrupulous individuals and enterprises.

 

 

[namisgr]

The divide is often between GA collectors and SA/BA collectors. With many GA books being scarce in anything resembling high grade, smoothing out a few curls, surface impressions or bent edges with a press can create not only a nicer looking book, but one that isn't obtainable any other way. On the other hand, post-1964 SA and BA is nearly always abundant in high grade, and it matters to many collectors whether a particular high grade copy survived the ravages of time, kids, parents, and the elements in miraculous shape, or needed a recent-vintage push to get to that quality of preservation.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

The divide is often between GA collectors and SA/BA collectors. With many GA books being scarce in anything resembling high grade, smoothing out a few curls, surface impressions or bent edges with a press can create not only a nicer looking book, but one that isn't obtainable any other way. On the other hand, post-1964 SA and BA is nearly always abundant in high grade, and it matters to many collectors whether a particular high grade copy survived the ravages of time, kids, parents, and the elements in miraculous shape, or needed a recent-vintage push to get to that quality of preservation.

 

I would rather have a book that is a survivor over a manipulated example. I have pressed a few books, and sold them all. I found (for myself) that there was nothing special about the books as they werent that way before pressing. One book in particular was bought as a F (6.0) here on the boards. After pressing it came back a 9.6 OW/W, I sold it. I didnt care about the book in UHG, and settled for a nice 9.4 copy. The 9.4 to my knowledge was not pressed..

 

The crack/press/resub game is in full swing. UHG copies are becoming common place in the late silver/late BA. The more that appear the lower the prices go. Is it "destroying" the market? No. It is correcting it. The books are common without pressing, and more keep coming out. But if you can make 50-100 bucks, eff it. Squish em'

[VintageComics]

But if you can make 50-100 bucks, eff it. Squish em'

 

Ah, you're such a different Pat than you were just a year ago.

 

[Flaming_Telepath]

As a proprietor of pressed comics books I'd question the objectivity of your opinion on the impact that manipulation tactics have, or how important that knowledge is to a collector of HG slabs. So I call BS too.

It's fair to say that Mr Bedrock has a motivation to be biased towards pressing because of his sales.

It's fair to say that relative to what he makes off of comics both in back issues and retailing that the motivation is inconsequential.

 

I would contend it is unreasonable and, as a general admirer of your thoughtful posting, that it is unusual for you to press a point this far. I personally see no more reason to view his thoughts with any less authority than someone who might be disappointed due to having to back away from slab collecting due to a personal dislike of pressing.

 

While it may be out of character to call someone out, I am fundamentally opposed to opinions that seek to discredit the existence and discussion of comic manipulation in the HG slab market as whining or sermon laden elitism. That is especially true for vendors who profit from the enterprise. One may argue that the level of profit is a factor in considering the bias of the perspective, I however do not view that as an afforded luxury in this hobby. Comics are an unregulated market and unless the collectorate hold comic proprietors and their products to some level of accountability this hobby will continue to be a haven for unscrupulous individuals and enterprises.

 

 

(thumbs u

 

And the fact is, the majority of the collectorate don't hold these people accountable. If they did, how could Schmell still be trading? Or Matt 'caught twice shilling his own auctions' Nelson?

 

The majority of people turn a blind eye so long as they can get their fix. It only becomes an issue for them when said individual 'really' goes off the rails, as in the case of Ewert, and then we hear the howls of indignation.

 

Sorry, but if you care to watch, consider and digest, the roadsigns are often up fairly early.

[MrBedrock]

As a proprietor of pressed comics books I'd question the objectivity of your opinion on the impact that manipulation tactics have, or how important that knowledge is to a collector of HG slabs. So I call BS too.

It's fair to say that Mr Bedrock has a motivation to be biased towards pressing because of his sales.

It's fair to say that relative to what he makes off of comics both in back issues and retailing that the motivation is inconsequential.

 

I would contend it is unreasonable and, as a general admirer of your thoughtful posting, that it is unusual for you to press a point this far. I personally see no more reason to view his thoughts with any less authority than someone who might be disappointed due to having to back away from slab collecting due to a personal dislike of pressing.

 

While it may be out of character to call someone out, I am fundamentally opposed to opinions that seek to discredit the existence and discussion of comic manipulation in the HG slab market as whining or sermon laden elitism. That is especially true for vendors who profit from the enterprise. One may argue that the level of profit is a factor in considering the bias of the perspective, I however do not view that as an afforded luxury in this hobby. Comics are an unregulated market and unless the collectorate hold comic proprietors and their products to some level of accountability this hobby will continue to be a haven for unscrupulous individuals and enterprises.

 

You've called me hypocrite, a liar, and now unaccountable...

Thanks buddy (thumbs u

[blazingbob]

You left out unscrupulous

[FlyingDonut]

You left out unscrupulous

 

Well, that goes without saying. Sort of like the "Given" in a geometry proof. (thumbs u

[adamstrange]

It's so magical watching friendships blossom here in Comics General.

[NewWorldOrder]

You left out unscrupulous

 

Well, that goes without saying. Sort of like the "Given" in a geometry proof. (thumbs u

 

Man did I hate that in school.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

But if you can make 50-100 bucks, eff it. Squish em'

 

Ah, you're such a different Pat than you were just a year ago.

 

Im not.. I barely even submit books.

[jbud73]

As a proprietor of pressed comics books I'd question the objectivity of your opinion on the impact that manipulation tactics have, or how important that knowledge is to a collector of HG slabs. So I call BS too.

It's fair to say that Mr Bedrock has a motivation to be biased towards pressing because of his sales.

It's fair to say that relative to what he makes off of comics both in back issues and retailing that the motivation is inconsequential.

 

I would contend it is unreasonable and, as a general admirer of your thoughtful posting, that it is unusual for you to press a point this far. I personally see no more reason to view his thoughts with any less authority than someone who might be disappointed due to having to back away from slab collecting due to a personal dislike of pressing.

 

While it may be out of character to call someone out, I am fundamentally opposed to opinions that seek to discredit the existence and discussion of comic manipulation in the HG slab market as whining or sermon laden elitism. That is especially true for vendors who profit from the enterprise. One may argue that the level of profit is a factor in considering the bias of the perspective, I however do not view that as an afforded luxury in this hobby. Comics are an unregulated market and unless the collectorate hold comic proprietors and their products to some level of accountability this hobby will continue to be a haven for unscrupulous individuals and enterprises.

 

You've called me hypocrite, a liar, and now unaccountable...

Thanks buddy (thumbs u

 

You forgot disingenuous.

 

Your welcome; after saying that you do not profit from comic manipulation and that all pressing does is make a comic flat, I haven't drunk the koolaid and am obviously inclined to disagree. Jeff before you jump all over that, I'm not saying that you have drunk the koolaid, as I know you understand what pressing is capable of, its potential effects and that dealers profit from it in the marketplace.

 

I also understand THOUGH VEHEMENTLY DISAGREE WITH the PR positioning, that dealers are not going to disclose their books were pressed in all proprietary settings. The CGC forum thankfully at least has tacit expectations that this sort of disclosure is forthcoming and (insert olive branch) Mr. (Evans) Bedrock has indicated he will disclose those books which are pressed and that he is offering for sale.

 

On pressin (sic) the point too far. Mr. Bedrock made statements I obviously disagreed with, he pushed me, I pushed back. Usually a little back and forth discourse is a good thing, in this instance the argument probably went further than I would usually consider taking it. However I firmly believe that non disassembly pressing and its application in the hobby and marketplace has a tip of the iceberg potential. Combined with attempts to limit the proliferation of information and understanding of what is really possible inside a Blue Slab, pressing may lead to a slippery slope whereby sellers feel they can do anything to a comic book as long as it sports a CGC blue label and this tactic will still be accepted by collectors and the marketplace at large.

 

So I apologize if Mr. Bedrock took my statements against him personally. I felt that the statements were seeking to inaccurately portray a situation that is occurring in the hobby that has increasingly dire implications in terms of precedent and acceptable business practice. The irony being that he practices disclosure in the marketplace where others do not, so maybe that is why he is tired of hearing about it, however until his brethren follow suit I feel it necessary to point out the disparity and potential problems it creates for the collector.

Edited November 11, 2010 by jbud73

[adamstrange]

I applaud the tenor of your post. (thumbs u

 

Moving on to substantive issues, it would appear from your recent posts that you emphasize pressing as a problem related to "dealers/vendors/proprietors." At this point, it's gone far beyond that based on what I've seen and heard. Collectors are getting large volumes of books pressed and only a tiny fraction are discovered and an even smaller percentage are disclosed. For those with a visceral dislike of pressing this is further bad news.

[nearmint]

Combined with attempts to limit the proliferation of information and understanding of what is really possible inside a Blue Slab,

 

What exactly do you mean by this? If I say "I think pressing is harmless", do you consider that an attempt to limit the spread of information? Is it possible to have an opposing viewpoint without being accused of something nefarious?

[jimbo_7071]

On 11/9/2010 at 5:01 PM, jbud73 said:

 

+1 Supa has done a lot of leg work over the years to inform collectors about some of the more unscrupulous tactics and vendors in the marketplace.

 

As an aside I urge anyone reading these boards to go back and read the DD 11 threads, pay attention to the commentary of some of the established board members around here. There was definitely a anti "your just jealous that Ewert Does it again with HG comic books" deny deny deny to the end really. And of course the final rationalization, "we can't detect it" So even though the extent of all the manipulations FINALLY CAME TO LIGHT, the end result was that the marketplace took very minimal actions to ensure that comic manipulation (I'd say resto but that would see this thread go on for 500 pages) continued, or the vendors performing it ceased to operate.

 

And really what can they really do? Like it or not HG comics are a pretty turbulent environment. The problem I have always had is the marketing of the serene image of, all these books in 9.6 are untouched, real survivors, when in reality people are pulling out everything they can get away with and still garner a blue label. The individuals who don't "drink the koolaid" or at least ask some common sense questions that call into question the tactics and business practices of comic vendors are dismissed as the vocal minority

 

Well how about I vocally play devils advocate as someone who still buys HG slabs, though with everything we (I) have learned over the past few years that frequency has subsided.

 

Some facts....

1. So Jason Ewert sells mirco trimmed and pressed books.

2. His business model is profitable.

3. He gets caught selling pressed and trimmed books

4. CGC removes his vendor / dealer status.

 

So now I ask, do these facts bar Ewert from entry to the marketplace as a dealer? Do they limit his manipulation tactics?

 

The logical answer would be NO to point one and MAYBE to point two. I think Ewert is still submitting books to auction houses. His old EBAY auctions were probably the biggest victim of the scandal, meaning he probably relies on auction houses more now than when he was "doing it again" on EBAY.

 

He is pressing books and maybe trimming them, I mean he got it by CGC once, seems to me trying it again is a good bet, refining your technique (if you believe CGC can 100% detect the old technique) and continue to make money in the marketplace.

 

The bottom line is that comics are unregulated. It's not like a comic version of the Securities Commission exists.

 

If you did something that made you money.

If that something was frowned upon by the environment in which the money was made.

If you were aware that is was frowned upon yet continued to do it.

If you were caught doing it.

If the consequences of being caught were minimal to non existing (its not like he had to even pay a fine).

Would anyone with some common sense believe that you would cease to perform the act that made you money and had little to no adverse consequences?

 

 

I was just reading this post and had to chuckle (ironically) at how true that statement still is today.