Do dealers WANT to sell their books?

[shadroch]

If they don't need money, why schlep boxes across the country to go to shows? Why even be in the comic business?

 

The only advantage I can assume is probably some fiscal thing where the inflated value of their inventory is a tax-deductible at the end of the year or something, in which case I could see why NOT selling is the way to go...

 

 

Are you just making this stuff up as you type? Obviously you know nothing about the secret world of comic dealers, the big round table at Comic Con, the special signs which enable you to great "dealer" discounts, nor the comraderie one gets from being in The Brotherhood or The Guild.

No one schelps boxes all over the country. The big dealers maintain show stocks in the spare bedrooms of their various weekend homes. It's a social circuit. Summers in San Diego, a jaunt to New York in the fall, Chi-town in the Spring.

And don't forget the lackeys (thumbs u

 

Dare I mention the groupies?

[shadroch]

If they don't need money, why schlep boxes across the country to go to shows? Why even be in the comic business?

 

The only advantage I can assume is probably some fiscal thing where the inflated value of their inventory is a tax-deductible at the end of the year or something, in which case I could see why NOT selling is the way to go...

 

 

Are you just making this stuff up as you type? Obviously you know nothing about the secret world of comic dealers, the big round table at Comic Con, the special signs which enable you to great "dealer" discounts, nor the comraderie one gets from being in The Brotherhood or The Guild.

No one schelps boxes all over the country. The big dealers maintain show stocks in the spare bedrooms of their various weekend homes. It's a social circuit. Summers in San Diego, a jaunt to New York in the fall, Chi-town in the Spring.

 

I stand corrected

 

You are forgiven. This time

[MrBedrock]

If they don't need money, why schlep boxes across the country to go to shows? Why even be in the comic business?

 

The only advantage I can assume is probably some fiscal thing where the inflated value of their inventory is a tax-deductible at the end of the year or something, in which case I could see why NOT selling is the way to go...

 

 

Are you just making this stuff up as you type? Obviously you know nothing about the secret world of comic dealers, the big round table at Comic Con, the special signs which enable you to great "dealer" discounts, nor the comraderie one gets from being in The Brotherhood or The Guild.

No one schelps boxes all over the country. The big dealers maintain show stocks in the spare bedrooms of their various weekend homes. It's a social circuit. Summers in San Diego, a jaunt to New York in the fall, Chi-town in the Spring.

And don't forget the lackeys (thumbs u

 

Dare I mention the groupies?

You mean like Watson?

[mt1000]

Metropolis has Dominatrix duck 3 :o

[Timmay]

They've probably cornered the market.

[mt1000]

They've probably cornered the market.

 

I guess ill never own my grail book then

[tth2]

If they don't need money, why schlep boxes across the country to go to shows? Why even be in the comic business?

 

The only advantage I can assume is probably some fiscal thing where the inflated value of their inventory is a tax-deductible at the end of the year or something, in which case I could see why NOT selling is the way to go...

 

 

Are you just making this stuff up as you type? Obviously you know nothing about the secret world of comic dealers, the big round table at Comic Con, the special signs which enable you to great "dealer" discounts, nor the comraderie one gets from being in The Brotherhood or The Guild.

No one schelps boxes all over the country. The big dealers maintain show stocks in the spare bedrooms of their various weekend homes. It's a social circuit. Summers in San Diego, a jaunt to New York in the fall, Chi-town in the Spring.

[RockMyAmadeus]

oy gevalt!!

 

I'm not talking about key books! I'm talking about one of those 126,243,355 OTHER comics that people buy that aren't an AF#15, TEC#27, TOS#39, etc.

 

Lemme just pick something at random........

 

Let's say a More Fun Comics #115 CGC 9.2 that's priced $675. Are there people who buys these? Sure. But what if NONE of those people will pay anything close to that price? What is the point of holding onto that book year after year and show after show when the market has told you, loud and clear, WE WON'T PAY THAT MUCH!

 

At some point, I would think, a dealer would say: "OK, it's time to get rid of this book - let's drop the price." Dealers want to sell books, not be a traveling museum.

 

Once again, for those who haven't been paying attention, I'm NOT talking about "hot" books or titles that turn at guide or close to it. I'm talking about the countless OTHER books that people will buy if dealers would ignore what Overstreet says and sell the books for what the MARKET will pay.

 

There's a lot of reasons for the phenomena you're describing.

 

A lot of it has to do with the entrenched "values" of comics listed in price guides (specifically the Overstreet.)

 

Prior to about 1992, Overstreet prices on *pretty much* everything was accurately priced. That is, if a Spidey #1 was priced at $900, it's because it sold for $900.

 

But, because of the insane run up on Silver that occured in the late 80's, and the equally insane run up on Bronze and some Copper in the early 90's, combined with Bob Overstreet's philosophy (contrary to basic logic) that the prices of comics should never go down, and then add the mid 90's crash for good measure, and you find the authority on back issue prices part way with reality, never to look back.

 

So right there, the stacked is decked against the buyer. A dealer has the "industry standard" in front of them, and it says Comic Book X #47 is worth $90 in "nm-", even though that book hasn't sold for $90 but maybe once in the last 10 years, and routinely sells for $20. The odds are good that the average dealer paid a higher percentage than they should have, based on that same information.

 

Then: the 'net. Had the internet and eBay not been brought to the masses, it's possible that prices could, indeed, have "recovered", but the truth is, everyone can be a dealer, with very, very little effort. Oddly enough, this makes some dealers not want to budge even more firmly, because they won't be able to buy material easily at a better price.. Add to that, the fact that once it's gone, it's generally gone for good and you have a far more competitive marketplace than it used to be.

 

Finally...dealing in back issues is, like other collectibles fields, far more emotionally involved than standard retail businesses. The vast majority of dealers became so because they started out as collectors. The collector in a dealer rarely dies, so it's tough for many to "turn over" their "inventory" (though this is precisely what they should be doing) unless they get the absolute best price they can. "Trophy books" and "ad books" aside, there are a great number of dealers who treat their ENTIRE inventory as a museum rather than actual inventory, and basic economic principles are ignored...usually to their eventual demise.

 

And then you have pseudo-dealers like me, guys who don't do this as a living, and can, like Tony Moore, set any prices we want. Who cares what "the market says" at this point in time? If I don't have to sell...I don't.

 

 

[tth2]

Prior to about 1992, Overstreet prices on *pretty much* everything was accurately priced. That is, if a Spidey #1 was priced at $900, it's because it sold for $900.

You have a different recollection of life in the 1980s than I do!

 

However, to the extent that the Guide was accurate back then, it was actually accurate because of the exact opposite reason that you state. If the Guide priced Spidey #1 at $900, then that's what "ordinary" dealers listed it at because that was their primary source of price data. That was okay, because they could make money selling at Guide because they (i) undergraded books when buying and overgraded when selling, or (ii) bought books at steep discounts from Guide, or (iii) all of the above.

 

I seriously doubt Bob's data gathering skills were any better back then than they are today, so I doubt that he set his prices any more systematically or accurately back then than today. But the uniformity with which the non-BSD dealers fell into line with what he said was pretty awe-inspiring.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Prior to about 1992, Overstreet prices on *pretty much* everything was accurately priced. That is, if a Spidey #1 was priced at $900, it's because it sold for $900.

You have a different recollection of life in the 1980s than I do!

 

However, to the extent that the Guide was accurate back then, it was actually accurate because of the exact opposite reason that you state. If the Guide priced Spidey #1 at $900, then that's what "ordinary" dealers listed it at because that was their primary source of price data. That was okay, because they could make money selling at Guide because they (i) undergraded books when buying and overgraded when selling, or (ii) bought books at steep discounts from Guide, or (iii) all of the above.

 

I seriously doubt Bob's data gathering skills were any better back then than they are today, so I doubt that he set his prices any more systematically or accurately back then than today. But the uniformity with which the non-BSD dealers fell into line with what he said was pretty awe-inspiring.

 

. Chicken-egg, egg-chicken. The reality was, whether it sold at that price because OPG said it was that price, or OPG said it was that price because it sold at that price, the end result was that it sold at that price. Remember, this was when Cap #100 was a $15 book.

 

I'm ABSOLUTELY not suggesting that OPG was accurate because of Bob's data collecting abilities...I'm saying that the market was much, much, much more stable, so either the market could reflect OPG or OPG could reflect the market, or some combination thereof. That vanished in the early 90's.

[markseifert]

I seriously doubt Bob's data gathering skills were any better back then than they are today, so I doubt that he set his prices any more systematically or accurately back then than today.

 

Fwiw, Jon Warren, longtime editor of the (pre-Fan) Overstreet monthly guide, used to talk about his multi-user mainframe sytem and its data sifting abilities. I was surprised to notice recently that he developed the Heritage setup under the hood, so obviously he kept a hand in slicing and dicing comics data over the years.

 

What Overstreet did or didn't do with it back then for the big guide is of course another matter.

[G.A.tor]

don't use my business model of buying at $x and selling at $x - %x

well, maybe it was my "old" business model

[Comicopolis]

My Uncle Phil has a Philosophy. If his books don't sell at his original asking price, he raises it to punish people. His exact words. He doesn't need the money or care if they sell. Especially if he has only one copy of an issue.

 

Classic

[Comicopolis]

If they don't need money, why schlep boxes across the country to go to shows? Why even be in the comic business?

 

The only advantage I can assume is probably some fiscal thing where the inflated value of their inventory is a tax-deductible at the end of the year or something, in which case I could see why NOT selling is the way to go...

 

 

Are you just making this stuff up as you type? Obviously you know nothing about the secret world of comic dealers, the big round table at Comic Con, the special signs which enable you to great "dealer" discounts, nor the comraderie one gets from being in The Brotherhood or The Guild.

No one schelps boxes all over the country. The big dealers maintain show stocks in the spare bedrooms of their various weekend homes. It's a social circuit. Summers in San Diego, a jaunt to New York in the fall, Chi-town in the Spring.

And don't forget the lackeys (thumbs u

 

Dare I mention the groupies?

You mean like Watson?

 

He can multi-task as a lackey and groupie at the same time.

 

Only for the right dealers of course.

[Dale Roberts]

If it can't be replaced for less than the asking price, and the dealer doesn't have a problem with cash flow, why lower the price?

 

I don't get the mentality of ''replacing a book'', if it sells, it sells, put the money towards something else, it's not like there aren't a million other books the dealer could buy...

 

This is completely wrong.

 

As a dealer, I like to try to have a copy of everything, and I like to have it in desirable grade. There are only so many books out there that people actually want, so if you can afford to carry them all, why not do so? Books don't eat much, so honestly, once I buy it, I rarely think about the book again until it sells.

 

For example.... I always try to have a copy of Sub-Mariner #1 in stock, as well as Nick Fury #1, and also Doctor Strange #169. There is low demand for each of these books, but every once in a while, someone comes along and will purchase it. Whether it takes me a week or a year, I still get the same 100 - 200.00 depending upon the book. The profit margin is pretty well fixed. And it costs me nothing to carry the book around, and guess what. After I sell it, I will buy another one, because someone else will come along and want a copy. You do that with enough books and a large enough number of times and you make a living.

 

Selling vintage comics is not alot like normal retail. There is no new style coming out. There is no new model coming out. A 9.0 copy that I have today is no different than a 9.0 copy I will have next year. And your product doesn't normally go down in value.

 

And you have to understand, that most collectors can't buy everything they want at one time. I may sell a book to a guy at a convention that he wants, and then sell the same guy another book that he wanted next year, but could not afford at the time.

 

 

[Dale Roberts]

If they don't need money, why schlep boxes across the country to go to shows? Why even be in the comic business?

 

The only advantage I can assume is probably some fiscal thing where the inflated value of their inventory is a tax-deductible at the end of the year or something, in which case I could see why NOT selling is the way to go...

 

 

Are you just making this stuff up as you type? Obviously you know nothing about the secret world of comic dealers, the big round table at Comic Con, the special signs which enable you to great "dealer" discounts, nor the comraderie one gets from being in The Brotherhood or The Guild.

No one schelps boxes all over the country. The big dealers maintain show stocks in the spare bedrooms of their various weekend homes. It's a social circuit. Summers in San Diego, a jaunt to New York in the fall, Chi-town in the Spring.

And don't forget the lackeys (thumbs u

 

 

And the chicks. All the girls love guys with comics.

[tth2]

And it costs me nothing to carry the book around

What do you mean? What about things like opportunity cost, ROI, time value of money, etc.? The book might not require you to expend more money, but the money that you spent to acquire the book in the first place could be earning more money for you in a different, possibly much safer investment. If you`re not beating those other benchmarks, then that book is indeed losing money for you even if you`re not losing money in an unsophisticated layman`s sense.

[faster friends]

My Uncle Phil has a Philosophy. If his books don't sell at his original asking price, he raises it to punish people. His exact words. He doesn't need the money or care if they sell. Especially if he has only one copy of an issue.

 

Classic

 

I know right! He is hilarious. Ask Bosco about him. Time and time again I tell him to try the Make an Offer Option, but he is hard headed and wants what he wants. The books have been sitting for 30 years and he is in no hurry to sell. He says he is just having fun with it.

[Silver]

I have overpaid for books in the past because I wanted them and knew that I may not see another one of those again anytime soon. My goal is to always buy as cheap as I can, but at the end of the day I am a collector, not an investor, the price is secondary to the book itself. Retail and collectibles are not really the same thing, as has been stated.

 

I see examples of people doing what your talking about all the time, but in most cases we are talking about succesfull dealers, so they must know what they are doing.

 

How many times have any of us passed on a book we coveted because of the price and came to regret it later?

[Foolkiller]

I think what Mark is getting at though is the vast amount of inventory that many dealers carry that seems to be priced at Overstreet and then proceeds to sit there. I hear several dealers complain that they can't move those Fine books at 20% off even (!) --

 

Several dealers will carry inventory with the hopes of selling off the drek at some point, and even when they discount down further, can't sell. There's a reason for that -- many books cannot be sold for anywhere near guide.

 

Common bronze is hitting the tank right now from its previous highs. So I'm not sure guide is even accurate anymore. RMA made the point that for many dealers it's emotional, and in talking to several savvy retailers, you see that's a huge difference in those that achieve higher success than others. Some are real business people and others don't seem to have much of a grasp on the model at all. They love their comics so much they want to keep them in the basement.

 

There's a local dealer here who owns a store, has several slabs, but no clue as to the pricing reality. He keeps insisting they "must" be worth his price. And he does need the money. But he's been like this for 25 years, so he has it in his head what they "should" be worth and every 5 year high sale must be the "true" value . The "insulting" offers he gets on Comiclink for Fair Market Value are just "ludicrous" to him.

 

There are more dealers like this out there who don't want to move product. Others have a different philosophy, like turn the inventory. For instance, some dealers will sell older inventory at 50% off discounts because they want to move product. Some others will hang onto it.

 

Even Harley sells his B stock once or twice a year for 40% off -- while other dealers never seem to be willing to do this.

 

I don't think we're referring to the cream -- it's the other 90%.