I still say that we are headed for a split market.

[currincomics]

I posted this topic many many moons ago, but month by month, my feelings on this just grow stronger. There are some collectors that scoff at someone else grading their comics to ascertain it's value(say those of us with 20+ years in the hobby), and having to pay for it to be done nonetheless, and there are those of us as of now who will not buy an open market comic unless it's slabbed. So, I'd say within 10 yrs or less, there will be a complete split between the markets of raw comics and slabbed. I'd go to the point that there will be two seperate OS guides, one for raw comics, and one for slabbed. I feel that(sorry to borrow this) we see the "wheels in motion" of this happening before us right now. I, however, don't see this as a bad thing either, as the slabbed values can be judged against one another and possibly stabilize somewhat, and the raw market no longer get beat down because it's HG copies are not slabbed. Speculators can gravitate twoards the slab market and the collector can buy, trade,and sell in the raw market. This does not mean that true-blooded, for the love of the hobby and hunt would not be involved in the slab market, just as the spec would buy a HG raw copy and have it slabbed. I just see it heading in this direction and think it has already begun.

[Smokinghawk]

I think if this happens, one form it might take is a collecting subculture created by young people who catch fire for collecting comics but can't afford the "business" aspect of slabbed books, and don't see any joy in having a row of plastic rectangles to keep their enthusiasm among friends who also collect.

 

I like slabbed books now, but I gotta say--if they had already taken over the hobby back when I got hooked twenty years ago, I probably never would have gotten further into the hobby.

[Mr. Zipper]

I like slabbed books now, but I gotta say--if they had already taken over the hobby back when I got hooked twenty years ago, I probably never would have gotten further into the hobby.

 

I think the same thing all the time. If I was a teenager today and was interested in collecting back issues, it wouldn't be financially possible to assemble any sort of "collection"... so why bother? You'd have to choose between beat up dollar bin readers or having a one or two slabs to look at. Doesn't sound like a very fun hobby from that perspective.

[goldust40]

So what you're saying is that slabbing makes vintage comics less accessible. Have to say, I agree - especially over their effect had they existed twenty years ago. Comics were originally collected by enthusiasts who only cared about the stories.

[valiantman]

If I was a teenager today and was interested in collecting back issues, it wouldn't be financially possible to assemble any sort of "collection"... so why bother? You'd have to choose between beat up dollar bin readers or having a one or two slabs to look at. Doesn't sound like a very fun hobby from that perspective.

(enter Valiantman)

Ooh, I have an idea!!!

[Aces]

I like slabbed books now, but I gotta say--if they had already taken over the hobby back when I got hooked twenty years ago, I probably never would have gotten further into the hobby.

 

I think the same thing all the time. If I was a teenager today and was interested in collecting back issues, it wouldn't be financially possible to assemble any sort of "collection"... so why bother? You'd have to choose between beat up dollar bin readers or having a one or two slabs to look at. Doesn't sound like a very fun hobby from that perspective.

 

Give me your tired, your poor, your 8.5s-9.2s!

[Aces]

So what you're saying is that slabbing makes vintage comics less accessible. Have to say, I agree - especially over their effect had they existed twenty years ago. Comics were originally collected by enthusiasts who only cared about the stories.

 

Amen!

[tilleycs]

I think if this happens, one form it might take is a collecting subculture created by young people who catch fire for collecting comics but can't afford the "business" aspect of slabbed books, and don't see any joy in having a row of plastic rectangles to keep their enthusiasm among friends who also collect.

 

I like slabbed books now, but I gotta say--if they had already taken over the hobby back when I got hooked twenty years ago, I probably never would have gotten further into the hobby.

 

I think the CGC phenomenon already has divided the comic readers/collectors/investors/speculators to a certain extent. Most people tend to be a combination of two or more of those, but some don't have the finances, interest, or desire to be more or all of them. I'm a reader and a collector, but I'm not interested in being an investor or speculator. Hence, I own ZERO issues that are graded.

 

The CGC stuff has fueled sales of graded books, but the prices keep a lot of readers/collectors out of that market. The sheer, sometimes-blinding obsession over CGC grades has turned me off from it, too, honestly. I don't have any desire to become a "comic snob" (no offense to anyone, that's not directed at anyone in particular - and I'm not saying that everyone who collects or is interesed in CGC books is a comic snob). I've become very turned off from that corner of the hobby.

 

So I think things are ALREADY divided to a certain extent.

[Timely]

I am reminded of a story my friend told me whenever I hear about comic crashes.

 

The year was 1978 and my friends brother just bought a Batman #1. They were in New York taking the train home when the brother said this to my friend, "I cannot believe I just paid $150 for a Batman #1! Do you think anyone will EVER more?"

 

Timely

[uclapeterg]

You mean, they are not now?

 

So what you're saying is that slabbing makes vintage comics less accessible. Have to say, I agree - especially over their effect had they existed twenty years ago. Comics were originally collected by enthusiasts who only cared about the stories.

 

Amen!

[goldust40]

You mean, they are not now?

 

So what you're saying is that slabbing makes vintage comics less accessible. Have to say, I agree - especially over their effect had they existed twenty years ago. Comics were originally collected by enthusiasts who only cared about the stories.

 

Amen!

 

I was trying to be clever, and was wearing my rose-tinted specs. I can remember reading in All In Color For A Dime that the hunter/gatherer mentality hadn't taken over in that antideluvian age (the late '50s/early '60s).

 

People in those days actually leant each other their comics without concerning themselves about what may happen to them. Fanzines from that innocent age enthused exclusively about stories and art.

 

Even though most of those stories were [!@#%^&^]!

[joe_collector]

I am reminded of a story my friend told me whenever I hear about comic crashes.

 

[BassGMan]

Although I like the "look" of a comic in a slab with a nice cover, I would never even dream of buying a slabbed book unless it was for investment purposes. Any book that I buy and want to actually hold in my hands will be purchased raw. If any up and comers (kids or newbies) are getting into the slabbed book market now my guess is that their interest will be short lived in plastic protected books.

If these two markets are divided, or become moreso divided in the future, my guess is that if anything, the slabbed market will decline a bit and the raw market will increase in value and demand. Maybe some will disagree, but even for us old timers (20+ in the hobby) the attraction to an "untouchable" book and the novelty of a slab I believe will wear off somewhat. How many of you guys that have purchased slabs have just been "so tempted" to wanna crak that thing open? If you resisted now, I bet that someday you may very well crack that thing. Anyway, just my opinion, and guess. ------Sid

[FFB]

When I was a kid, the wall of my LCS was stocked with a ton of stuff I couldn't afford, but that didn't stop me. I bought new issues and some not-too-old back issues, and the occasional silver age Spider-Man (when they weren't too expensive). Most of the silver age Spideys I bought were in VG/F condition, and I didn't really care all that much. VG/F was perfectly okay with me. But Golden Age was priced way out of my league.

 

Nowadays, kids can still buy new issues, though the high cover price is keeping a lot of kids from plunking down their money on 20 minutes (max) of entertainment. Non-key back issues from the bronze and early modern ages in VG/F are actually cheaper than new comics at most of the LCSs around here. If anything is keeping teenagers away from the comic market, it's the high price of new comics, not the high price of super HG back issues, which most kids never even dream about buying in the first place.

 

What I'd really like to see is a return to the non-glossy newsprint interiors and the cover paper that is of the same quality as we had on comics from the 60s through the 90s. The cost added by the new paper just isn't worth it. If Marvel could get comics down to about $1.00 to $1.25 apiece, they'd sell a lot more comics, and in turn, would create a much larger fan base for their comic-related merchandise. If they create more die-hard fans, they wouldn't have to worry about what it would do to their licensing sales if their characters suddenly fell out of vogue.

 

I like slabbed books now, but I gotta say--if they had already taken over the hobby back when I got hooked twenty years ago, I probably never would have gotten further into the hobby.

 

I think the same thing all the time. If I was a teenager today and was interested in collecting back issues, it wouldn't be financially possible to assemble any sort of "collection"... so why bother? You'd have to choose between beat up dollar bin readers or having a one or two slabs to look at. Doesn't sound like a very fun hobby from that perspective.

[blowout]

Comics were originally collected by enthusiasts who only cared about the stories.

 

[shadroch]

Something to consider;

In 1974,Spidey was selling close to 300,000 copies at twenty cents each.At full retail that meant $60 grand an issue.With various wholesale and retailer discounts they might have cleared$30,000. Subtract the cost of production and of eating all the unsold copies and maybe they cleared ten grand an issue if they were lucky.Add a little more for revenue from advertising.

A new comic today selling 50,000 copies at $2.25 will bring in $112,000, with Marvels end being close to $45,000. Subtract the production cost and remember they no longer need to eat the cost of unsold books.

Now do the math if they reduced the cover price to$1.00.

It seems to me the problem isn't at the publisher level,its at the retail level.The way comics are sold today has as much or more to do with the lack of readers as any other factor,IMHO

[awe4one]

It seems to me the problem isn't at the publisher level,its at the retail level.The way comics are sold today has as much or more to do with the lack of readers as any other factor,IMHO

 

I agree but current high comic prices are on an equal level IMO.

 

And as far as a split market, I'm starting to think that it's not necessarily a bad development. Collectors of cheaper raw issues will be more insolated when/if a slabbed crash occurs....

 

Jim

[shadroch]

I believe the high cover cost is a direct result of the distrubution system.

If a retailer sells 1,000 comics a month at 2.00, he clears around $900 from the sales.

Were books reduced to $1.00 instead,he would clear only $450.

Yes,in the long run lower prices should mean an increase in sales,but it would be gradual and the retailer would most likely be long out of business before he'd see a doubling of his sales.Even if he lasted long enough to see his sales double,his profits would still be lower as his shipping costs would have doubled as well.The most likely result of lower prices would be less stores. Less stores would mean less sales outlets and expanding your sales base while contracting your outlets seems impossible.

[Calamerica]

This is a good Thread and lots of viewpoints from many Forum Members.

 

However, this has been re-hashed ad nausuem on other Boards, and the discussions( if you want to call them that) did not fare well, at least for me.

 

My points in the Year 2000 AND have not changed at all:

 

The comics hobby HAS developed sub-niches and sub-categories for certain collectors. Like it or not( and believe me, there seems to be more that do NOT like this) CGC is here to stay. The encapsulation market WILL be around. If CGC does not survive due to mismanagement, or otherwise unforeseen event(s), someone else WILL be encapsulating comics for many years to come.

 

We see a few collectors that like that 8.5 - 9.2 range, and they are fine comics to collect. They are motivated by the price AND a "just about as nice" copy to add to their collections. We see several CGC collectors that ONLY will take 9.4 and higher. We see CGC collectors that play the GEM MINT 10.0 lotto with those Moderns they keep sending in.

 

The naysayers of CGC and competitors are many. Some of those naysayers and detractors are adamantly against CGC and the grading services. They have been vociferous and gone to great lengths to get their mantra of "free the comics - read 'em" and have even attempting converting CGC collectors to their way of comic collecting. That to me is not only uncool, but has the resemblence of jamming some religion down someone elses' throat. That got me turned off to the naysayers way before I sent my first batch of comics to CGC.

 

Not every comic book will be encapsulated. Millions have been printed in the 20th Century and it would take about 500 CGC-like companies with 24-hour operations to get most of the comics encapsulated within 25 years.

 

There are many comic book collectors that do just like to read them, follow the storylines, and get entertainment value from them. Some of these fans will never even give a graded comic a second thought.

 

A few only collect genre, or just Golden Age. Some only like Silver Age comics. Some will only collect Bronze Age. Some like the high-grade comics. Some like the "readers". Some will only collect Marvel. Or DC. Or Dell.

Many kinds of comic book collectors, which in my opinion, is a good thing. Makes for a well-rounded hobby.

 

There are some collectors that have a little bit of all the above mentioned methods of collecting.

 

The naysayers don't seem to discuss much about the WHY CGC( and competitors) was created in the first place. There was too many grading disputes and color touches that actually harmed the Comic Book hobby. People stayed away because of the unpleasantness that lurked in the hobby. People got tired of getting ripped off by unscrupulous Dealers and the stories are too numerous to count and mention. CGC saw the niche and now provide the services they offer. I maintain my original position that CGC is one of the best things for this hobby and was sorely needed. Even if just for their restoration check, they are good for this hobby.

 

I personally seen the changes with coins, and to some extent, cards. Those hobbies had their naysayers too when their respective grading services came into existence. The unscrupulous just could not sell their Off Center Walter Payton Rookie card for $500.00 anymore, could they? That 1914-D penny advertised as VF was now a VG and some Coin Dealer was enraged at the publisher of those Guides I saw in the 1970's. Coins, and paper money, was created for the monetary exchange for goods and services. We all know that coins and money are also a "collectible", and coins/money "grew" into a hobby for those who are interested. Stamps. Elvis memorabilia. Posters. Sports. The same thing for Comic Books. Their original purpose was to read, fold them and put in your back pocket, share with friends, and eventually to be discarded. We of course know that Comic Books has been grown into much, much more. And that is a good, positive thing.

 

The future of comics is uncertain. If we could all correctly predict any future trend or path, that in itself would take some of the FUN out of collecting. Who would have thought Beanie Babies would take off? Remember the Cabbage Patch dolls? I saw two elderly women almost at fists over the last Cabbage Patch doll in a store once. I never forgot that. That same company, Coleco, also had one, if not the very first personal computer, the ADAM computer. Coleco also produced the very first hand-held football game. You guessed it - Coleco filed Bankruptcy somewhere in the 1990 era and never heard from again.

 

But back to the Comics hobby. Back to the detractors of ANY segment of this great hobby. I guess the biggest thing that bugs me personally is the detractors' anger/envy/lack of understanding of the dealers who try to make a living off of Comics. This includes the folks at CGC. The detractors think that they( The Chuck R's, and so on) should not be making a princely sum off of Comics. They are the same ones who think that CGC is a "Commodities Trader" and other similar slogans attempted to be tagged to CGC. My Insurance Agent said something that made me think of CGC:" Yes, car insurance is very expensive in California. I agree. But if the Insurance companies could not make a profit there would be no car insurance. Then where would you be when XYZ from Mars slams you head on through a red-light and stone cold drunk?". Two things: If CGC, Mile High, coud not make any money for themselves, they would not provide the comics and/or services. People don't work for free. People engage in business enterprises with the intent to earn an honest living. I detest those who begrudge an honest person their chance to pursue their business enterprises as they are only trying to survive and provide for their families. Some say that the CGC traders are in it "just for the money". So what? Why would you care what the reason THEY are in the hobby? If you can get a good deal from this CGC Dealer, get your good deal and be thankful s/he lost a few sheckels on this deal. Comics as an Investment vehicle: best thing that could have happened to old Comic Books. Ah-ha! You are thinking of those high-grades I keep scarfing up on eBay - not so fast - the ultimate reason the Investment paradigm serves well here: preservation. As Comics keep rising in value EVERY Year( except SPAWN - sorry Todd Mc F), there is a built-in mechanism of preserving Comics well into the next 100 years. Or more. This might be hard to appreciate as we won't be around, but there WILL be those around to enjoy them as long as they maintain monetary value.

 

Sure, Comic Books are meant to enjoy and have FUN with them. They are just material things, after all. But some of the FUN is taken out when there are those who thwart those who wants to have FUN with Comics. Some have fun collecting/trading and don't care about the profit margins. Some do care about the profit margins. There are those who really ARE good for the Comic Book hobby and that criterion is how I judge a Dealer or Service. If I know that they are good for the hobby, I am all for them. If I find out that they have dishonorable business practices, believe me, I won't do business with them. Sure, mistakes are made as in any other business, but the unscrupulous ones have a bad habit of repeating their "mistakes" where it is then known that they are dishonest. The old "word-of-mouth" has been replaced by the "New-word-of-eMail" and that is a great benefit of this Forum.

 

So to close this post, the Comics hobby is a big world of many kinds of collectors.

I have had some fun discussing various Comics Issues and hope to do more in the future. Met a lot of nice and smart folks this way. Met a lot of not-so-nice folks too. Got to take the good with the bad, as is life. More some other time.

 

CAL

[JLA_ALL_THE_WAY]

More some other time.

 

You mean there's more?!

 

 

Rick