Al Milgrom

[Prince Namor]

+100

[Conan_Aficionado]

If my politeness is really infuriating (I know you are joking) I will throw off the criticism by telling you that I am Canadian.

 

You had me until "I am." All kidding aside, well said.

 

I feel that anyone who is working for one of the major publishers is more than qualified for their jobs. It's one thing to dislike an artist's style, it's another altogether to call them talentless.

[Ken Aldred]

A great post. (thumbs u

]Jack Kamen was rarely mentioned [/b]along with the WIlliamsons, Woods and Kurtzmans at EC comics..... Anyway, I am going to give him credit for what he did for me, and a generation of readers before me, whatever that may have been.

While that's true, I've always thought Kamen was excellent in his own right at EC - a very accomplished good girl artist, providing a nice contrast to the intensity present in much of the other work there.

[markseifert]

I feel that anyone who is working for one of the major publishers is more than qualified for their jobs. It's one thing to dislike an artist's style, it's another altogether to call them talentless.

 

The other thing to consider in this discussion is how truly exceptional it is to be able to produce consistently great work on a monthly basis over the course of years (if not decades, in a few cases). That's been rare throughout comics history, and is extremely rare today.

[skinnys_pal_tubby]

If my politeness is really infuriating (I know you are joking) I will throw off the criticism by telling you that I am Canadian. We say, "Excuse me," when someone elbows us in the ribs.

 

But I am going to try to explain why I am nice to comic artists:

 

While their fans may treat them like movie stars or pro athletes, remarking upon them almost like the Gods living on Mount Olympus, comic artists just aren't compensated well. Their wives are not playboy models; hardly any of them earn as much money as a dentist. Their careers rarely last more than a decade, and their skills aren't always transferable. There is no pension, and some spend their twilight years selling real estate, watching warehouses at night or just drawing until they drop dead at the board.

 

One of the greatest was Al Williamson. He famously made his most money while inking X-Men. That's the way it goes.

 

Most of them put a lot of their souls into what are really little fantasy stories aimed at kids or the kids in all of us. They usually sit alone at a board all day doing the best they can trying to meet deadlines. Don Heck did some of his worst work while supporting his wife through cancer. Who will blame him?

 

With all this, they entranced me at a very early age. I owe them a lot-- my two degrees in art, a lot of my self-confidence, my own limited skills in drawing and painting, my former job as an art teacher and a wonderful lifetime hobby of collecting their work.

 

I marvel at the Denis Rodiers and the George Tuskas. They are not among the Goliaths of our hobby but they are talented men who gave us Superman and Iron Man. In fact, they are enormous talents. The kids who read their comics certainly have been entertained by them, generally not knowing or caring about who they are.

 

Jack Kamen was rarely mentioned along with the WIlliamsons, Woods and Kurtzmans at EC comics. But his son invented the Segway. Maybe Jack was just as skilled in art as his son was in engineering. Maybe not. Anyway, I am going to give him credit for what he did for me, and a generation of readers before me, whatever that may have been.

 

Awesome post! As a fellow Canuck, I too get irritated at the lack of politness that goes on here. (thumbs u

[ss5rmp]

If my politeness is really infuriating (I know you are joking) I will throw off the criticism by telling you that I am Canadian.

 

You had me until "I am." All kidding aside, well said.

 

I feel that anyone who is working for one of the major publishers is more than qualified for their jobs. It's one thing to dislike an artist's style, it's another altogether to call them talentless.

 

i wouldnt call him talentless but i would compare him to a sports athlete whos always on the bench...do they have talent? sure. are they better than the rest of the talent around them or before them? probably not. Would i want their job anyways? hell yes

[Jeffro.]

From now on there will be no criticizing of anyone for any reason.

 

Let's all join hands and sing kumbaya

[Sal]

I wasn't thinking about you when I made my post, Ron.

 

 

There are people who can't separate a man's work from the man, I understand that. When I criticise an artist's output, that's all I'm talking about; the art. The guy could be an organ donor who runs a Big Brother program for orphans and fosters abused animals for all I care, if he draws a comic in a style that's unappealing to my aesthetic, I am going to say I don't like that output.

 

 

Sue me

[Jeffro.]

I agree

 

I’m making no judgments on Al Milgrom as a person. I have no idea what he’s like as a person. I’m not suggesting he kicks puppies and steals candy from babies in his free time. I’m saying that I don’t care for his work and I think he’s on the lower end of the comic book artist talent scale.

 

Do I think he’s talentless? No

Do I think his pencils butchered some of my favorite characters in the 80s? Yes (and I think he’s a fine inker. Just keep him away from a pencil)

Can I draw even 1/10th as well as he can? No

Do I admire him for making a living as a professional comic artist? Yes

 

But guess what? None of that matters. We criticize EVERYONE. We are critical of athletes, politicians, actors, police, comic dealers, teachers, etc, etc EVERYONE. Why should comic artists be any different?

 

I will agree that maybe we could use a little more tact and understanding when making our criticisms.

 

[Sal]

**** that. AL MILGROM EATS BABIES WHILE SMOKING CRACK PURCHASED WITH FUNDS GAINED FROM PR0N AND JIHAD

[That Ron Dude]

All together now...

 

Someone's sleeping lord

Kumbaya

Someone's laughing lord

Kumbaya (I can't hear you)

Someone's drawing a comic lord

Kumbaya

Oh, lord, Kumbaya

 

[That Ron Dude]

Now that that is out of the way, you make a good point Jeffro. Why criticize everyone else and not comic artists.

 

I wish I had a good answer but I am afraid I don't.

 

It has something to do with context though. It also has something to do with the forum.

 

I used to be a school teacher and I did a good job (and this can be verified by going to ratemyteacher.com. Yet I know I was severely criticized by some students. It comes with the job. Once an Ontario VP was crticized on the internet. She took it to court arguing that the statements were a malicious publication. The students lawyers said that they were the equivalent of a discussion in the smoking pit. The point is not who won or lost the case (the VP won) the point is that they are both reasonable points of view and open to discussion.

 

I think that we can look at all those jobs and find reasonable and unreasonable forums and contexts.

 

And, it is true, I really shouldn't confuse the man with his work.

[Larryw7]

A great post. (thumbs u

]Jack Kamen was rarely mentioned [/b]along with the WIlliamsons, Woods and Kurtzmans at EC comics..... Anyway, I am going to give him credit for what he did for me, and a generation of readers before me, whatever that may have been.

While that's true, I've always thought Kamen was excellent in his own right at EC - a very accomplished good girl artist, providing a nice contrast to the intensity present in much of the other work there.

 

+1

[Spider-Variant]

I agree

 

I’m making no judgments on Al Milgrom as a person. I have no idea what he’s like as a person. I’m not suggesting he kicks puppies and steals candy from babies in his free time. I’m saying that I don’t care for his work and I think he’s on the lower end of the comic book artist talent scale.

 

Do I think he’s talentless? No

Do I think his pencils butchered some of my favorite characters in the 80s? Yes (and I think he’s a fine inker. Just keep him away from a pencil)

Can I draw even 1/10th as well as he can? No

Do I admire him for making a living as a professional comic artist? Yes

 

But guess what? None of that matters. We criticize EVERYONE. We are critical of athletes, politicians, actors, police, comic dealers, teachers, etc, etc EVERYONE. Why should comic artists be any different?

 

I will agree that maybe we could use a little more tact and understanding when making our criticisms.

 

Nicely summed up Jeffro.

(thumbs u

 

[32pages-migration]

I agree

 

I’m making no judgments on Al Milgrom as a person. I have no idea what he’s like as a person. I’m not suggesting he kicks puppies and steals candy from babies in his free time. I’m saying that I don’t care for his work and I think he’s on the lower end of the comic book artist talent scale.

 

Do I think he’s talentless? No

Do I think his pencils butchered some of my favorite characters in the 80s? Yes (and I think he’s a fine inker. Just keep him away from a pencil)

Can I draw even 1/10th as well as he can? No

Do I admire him for making a living as a professional comic artist? Yes

 

But guess what? None of that matters. We criticize EVERYONE. We are critical of athletes, politicians, actors, police, comic dealers, teachers, etc, etc EVERYONE. Why should comic artists be any different?

 

I will agree that maybe we could use a little more tact and understanding when making our criticisms.

 

 

Some people (and Canadians ) are just too nice, it's just their nature. I have this problem with my wife - I swear she'd lock up the brakes to avoid running over a squirrel, even with a Semi behind her, jacking on their breaks to avoid hitting her. Just run over the squirrel!!

[Speedy-D]

I really don't understand that position. If I don't like someone's art, why can't I say so? If I think an artist is lazy, why can't I say so? Should I not even think it?

 

Chances are Al Milgrom knows exactly how good he is, and exactly why some of his stuff is better than others. Do I honestly have to worry about hurting his feelings?

 

And yet, if I met the man at a convention, I wouldn't tell him he sucks. I wouldn't even tell him I hated some of the stuff he's done that I hate. I would make it clear, in more polite terms, that he's had highs and lows. When talking to someone of course you're going to be more polite than when you talk about them. That's sorta what polite means.

 

The idea that I'd tiptoe around a comic artist's feelings more than someone else's is silly though. Everyone's got a job, we're not all as appreciated or well compensated as we should be, how is a comic artist special?

 

As for the argument that I shouldn't criticize an artist's work unless I can do better, that's even more ridiculous. I have my strengths, and drawing comics isn't one of them, but that doesn't mean I'm without the power to discern what's good and what's bad. The two just have no relation to each other. I can't play guitar to save my life. Does that mean I don't have the right to criticize anyone's playing as long as they know at least a single chord?

[letsgrumble]

Now that that is out of the way, you make a good point Jeffro. Why criticize everyone else and not comic artists.

 

I wish I had a good answer but I am afraid I don't.

 

It has something to do with context though. It also has something to do with the forum.

 

I used to be a school teacher and I did a good job (and this can be verified by going to ratemyteacher.com. Yet I know I was severely criticized by some students. It comes with the job. Once an Ontario VP was crticized on the internet. She took it to court arguing that the statements were a malicious publication. The students lawyers said that they were the equivalent of a discussion in the smoking pit. The point is not who won or lost the case (the VP won) the point is that they are both reasonable points of view and open to discussion.

 

I think that we can look at all those jobs and find reasonable and unreasonable forums and contexts.

 

And, it is true, I really shouldn't confuse the man with his work.

 

Kudos to your earlier post, which was both compassionate and heartfelt about the creators and personalities behind the medium we love. Honestly.

 

From all accounts, Al Milgrom is a super guy. His artwork however is subpar. Does that mean that Milgrom is subpar and his artwork super… no, sir. Some here are under the conviction that the artist and his craft cannot be separated. If we poke fun at some of his covers, are we disrespecting the man? Who knows? Maybe? What is the answer?

 

If I dislike Cindi Lauper's voice does that mean I have it in for her personally? I mean, how could I considering all the work she does a lot for charity and, doggonit, she's also a super cook. Knowing that doesn't make me like her music anymore, does it? Should it?

 

Reading previous posts, there seems to be an understanding that Milgrom was the go-to guy for Marvel whenever they needed to pump out material quickly to meet a deadline. This may explain the lack of detail in his work; i.e., backgrounds with as much detail as a Charles M. Schulz newspaper strip. I can appreciate that he met deadlines under duress but that doesn't mean that I have to spend my 60 cents on a quickly-drawn comic book that was fast-tracked to the newsstand. Ahhh c'mon, it's for kids, you say? As a 10-year old I was discerning enough to see the difference in quality from a comic illustrated by a George Perez as compared to one by Al Milgrom.

 

To continue on with this thread's sports analogy, let's compare the Marvel's "bullpen" of artists to a major-league pitching staff . Each member of the pitching staff is made up of players who sign autographs, they're big brothers, fraud victims, cancer survivors, drunk-drivers, wife-beaters… a real slice of the human race. I'm sure I would love them all if I knew them personally. However, I'm a baseball fan. I like to go to games and cheer for my team. I buy season's tickets and I want to see my team win. It would become frustrating to me if the bulk of games were pitched by high-ERA pitchers like Jose Contreras and Alfredo Bastardo while Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee, Roy Oswalt and Cole Hamels made brief appearances. Just like I would criticize the Phillies organization and most likely cancel my season's tickets, I have the right not to purchase a mediocre comic book when I know what other talent is out there.

 

 

 

[HarrisonJohn]

[Inhuman Fiend]

 

[HarrisonJohn]

Were good covers just not a major priority in the late 70's/ early 80's? Seemed by the late 80's Marvel would have the opposite going on (great covers with fill-in artist inside).