Got into my first law school!

[Jeffreykli]

One other thing to consider is cost: If you get into a state school, go to it. For instance, I got into both Rutgers and Seton Hall, but chose Seton Hall -- for some stupid reason. I'd have a 1/3 of the loans if I chose Rutgers (they'd be long paid off actually).

 

Look, if you get into a top 15 law school you should go to it, but outside of that, finishing highly in your class and/or networking are really the most important facets. Then making a journal and/or moot court are nice additions. But as Chris points out, practical experience is really invaluable. Law school doesn't do a great job in terms of preparing you for the practice of law.

 

I went to the DA's office and got immediate (or almost so) jury trial experience. As I moved over to civil, I was very fortunate. Finding work in a high end plaintiff's firm is difficult, and I was very, very lucky. I've capitalized on that by doing a good job. There are all sorts of paths to success.

 

I'd strongly consider a couple of things: 1) if you go into business law, learn mandarin. Tim's suggestion is a good one 2) look for emerging fields.

 

Lawyers are a dime a dozen, but great lawyers are not.

 

Throwing my two cents into the mix: Echoing BK, I cannot emphasize networking and worth ethic. It's amazing how many new lawyers are out there, but frankly, very few of them are willing and able to put in the hard work. The truth is that being a lawyer isn't very easy, especially when you first start working (because law school doesn't teach you anything practical). But, if you're willing to work hard, it's amazing how fast you can rise to the top. And my experience has been with small private firms, big private firms, and in-house legal departments. (My practice is corporate securities, licensing, etc., and I'm now a corporate generalist).

 

The other piece that most law students completely miss is the networking opportunities: make friends with others in your class and the classes up and down from you at school. Use the local bar to meet practicing attorneys, and if the fit is right, hopefully you can find a mentor. Practicing law can sometimes feel as if you're alone on an island, but if you can pick up the phone or send an email to old friends, it makes your practice much easier and more efficient.

[MrBedrock]

And the bottom line is that I'm not going to get out worked by the Dechert, Skadden Arps, Kaye Scholer, Segal McCambridge, Willaims Connolly lawyers or any other giant firm I routinely go up against every day...

Have you ever battled Dewey, Cheatham and Howe?

[Han]

kay so, page 3....

 

I for one would like to thank you for entering into a field of study wherein there is such a dearth of qualified practitioners operating in America today. Lord knows if there's anything this country needs more of, it's not scientists or engineers, it's lawyers. Society welcomes your future endeavours warmly and with great anticipation.

 

See, I'm not usually one to "blame the teachers," but in this case I have to. I was pretty good at math until I had such amazingly terrible teachers that it wasn't even funny. When my teacher put up my very first poor score on a test in my life in 7th grade on the board with everyone's A's, She wouldn't help me privately, wouldn't help me in class, and was just person_without_enough_empathyy. I gave up. My family couldn't teach it to me and the teacher wouldn't, so I just flunked out of it, took it over again with a teacher who COULD teach, and did the bare minimum throughout high school. I had a science teacher who tried to force everyone into being vegan because she thought we were all immoral freaks. Content aside completely, the teachers were horrible and gave me a severe distaste for the subjects. I wish I could say it was otherwise but it really isn't. But on the other hand, one of my good friends is a math major, I hope she balances me out? ;P

 

 

I feel sorry for a lot of the folks going into law school today. I believe that the number of people currently in law school is at an all-time high, thanks to the poor economy which causes people to go to some form of grad school while they wait for thing to get better. Even if the economy does get significantly better over the next 2-3 years, it can`t possibly absorb all of the newly minted lawyers who will be entering the market.

 

There was a good article in the New York Times a few months ago about the travails of newly graduated law students, the massive student loans they had accumulated and the deception practiced by most law schools in calculating the post-graduation employment numbers that they need to jack up as high as possible in order to maintain their positions in the US News & World Report law school rankings.

 

My advice to anyone entering law school today would be: learn Mandarin (including the really tough part, reading and writing)!

 

I totally read that article! My pre-law advisor forwarded it to me. It was definitely interesting. But I have a unique leg up on a lot of current law students, so I'm not partiicularly worried about that.

 

Reading and writing Chinese is not the hard part, speaking it is. I took it for two years. Reading and writing it was like art class. Speaking it involves undulations of the voice that we don't use in our speech, and the five different tones have such minuscule differences (tone 1 and 3 I believe are the "easiest" and they're still hard as hell.) Instead I'm learning Turkish. Much more fitting for me.

 

My advice going into law school is to develop a work ethic. I am not the smartest legal scholar, I'm not the best trial lawyer in the country (unlike, say, the guy sitting in the room with me now, Ken Suggs, one of the great trial lawyers in our country), and I didn't know a partner at a big firm who could help grease the wheels. But the one thing you can control is how hard you work. And the bottom line is that I'm not going to get out worked by the Dechert, Skadden Arps, Kaye Scholer, Segal McCambridge, Willaims Connolly lawyers or any other giant firm I routinely go up against every day (the drug industry hires the best lawyers) and win against. Not because I'm smarter or better, but because we work harder (though as trial lawyers, I think the plaintiff's bar is overall much better at litigation, the defense bar, much better at legal analysis and briefing).

 

If you learn in law school how important work ethic is and how to apply it, you'll find a job. As I said, we've had the opportunity to hire a number of associates at my firm, and while we want someone bright, we wanted a worker. It's not so easy to find.

 

This is suuuper helpful. Thank you. My dad runs his own tiny firm and is well known in the area for his work for design professionals, but he took a long time digging out that niche. But he busts his on cases that huge names don't really worry about, and then he wins 'em. It makes me laugh, but also shows me the kind of work I need to be prepared to do. I'm very fortunate.

 

 

Everytime I see your avatar I think "When did I post in here..?"

 

That being said, MAZEL TOV DARLING! <3 I am very proud of you!

I do the same. XDDD

THANK YOU -superlovesnug- 8) Plus I'll be closer to you if I go there....

 

I'm very fortunate in that I have a leg up on my competition because of my father's experience. He worked at a large law firm, and left it to create his own small business. I've watched him sweat over building it up to the point where, honestly, he doesn't even make as much money as my mother does, and my mother is a school teacher. But he also went to a small school--a mistake I do not intend to make. All of the schools I am applying to are well ranked, and especially so in specific areas of my interest.

 

I was admitted into American University, which is a top 50 school. However, it is a top 10 in International Law, which is a specific interest of mine.

 

I'm waiting on responses from University of Virginia, Notre Dame, and George Washington.

 

Just as an FYI there. P: Moving on to page 4!

(this is so interesting)

[COI]

[Foolkiller]

And the bottom line is that I'm not going to get out worked by the Dechert, Skadden Arps, Kaye Scholer, Segal McCambridge, Willaims Connolly lawyers or any other giant firm I routinely go up against every day...

Have you ever battled Dewey, Cheatham and Howe?

 

The lawyers you hired to defend you in your most recent scandal?

[Foolkiller]

All are fine schools Han, just keep in mind cost as a factor. If you are a Virginia resident, I particularly like the UVA option.

[Transplant]

I do the same. XDDD

THANK YOU -superlovesnug- 8)

BTW, be sure to include this phrasing on any internship resumes.

[the blob]

See, I'm not usually one to "blame the teachers," but in this case I have to. I was pretty good at math until I had such amazingly terrible teachers that it wasn't even funny. When my teacher put up my very first poor score on a test in my life in 7th grade on the board with everyone's A's, She wouldn't help me privately, wouldn't help me in class, and was just person_without_enough_empathy. I gave up.

--------------

Sadly, this is a problem all over. It's easy to find english and history teachers who inspire kids, not so easy finding math teachers who do.

[MMurdock]

Keep your debt as low as possible.

 

And be realistic about job prospects (as they're fairly bleak).

 

I was top 33% or so at a T15 and didn't find a job until I was studying for the bar. So it's tough out there. But I purposefully went in looking to minimize debt and succeeded. (And I love my job). I graduated in past year, so if you're interested in any more specific advice/observations from members of my class, you can PM me. Otherwise, good luck!

 

And network and follow the advice others have given you here.

[Han]

((working on page 4 responses))

 

Sadly, this is a problem all over. It's easy to find english and history teachers who inspire kids, not so easy finding math teachers who do.

 

That's why A) I'm so proud of my (sorority) sisters who are math/science/technology teachers are are GOOD at it, and are POSITIVE educators.

 

But...my state cut so much funding, they aren't getting jobs teaching math and science.

[JvR11]

Han, good luck on your quest!! I think if you get into contract law you could have a lot of available options to you. I also also disagree with the post that there are too many scientists/math/engineering people. If you look, this type of career is mostly outsourced to people from countries that do focus their students in this area. I believe this area can teach you critical thinking, which is a major area we all need work in. I think even Bill Gates did a speech recently on the need for more of a math/science focus.

You might also consider yourself open for dual roles...a CPA/Lawyer is a great occupation to have. I don't think you'd have much problems finding a job with these credentials.

[Han]

it is tough out there for new graduates and there are wayyy too many, but Han will rise to the top of the cream in the coffee and, if nothig else she likes turns up, she can always take over her dad's practice.

 

han is coming into this with her eyes open (if nothing else I believe some of us already PM'd her when she was applying to law schools). if feel bad for the kid who goes to a lower ranked law school assuming that their $100K+ in tuition is going to get them a six figure job when they get out, but many law schools jiggle their employment data to suggest exactly that.

 

Yep, I've actually been working in my dad's office this semester. And over the summer I'll be working at his office almost full time. Because Dad went through law school, he knows what I need to know. He's been helping me out. And he's already said that if I can't find a job after law school that he'll hire me.

 

I am fully aware of the fact that "tuition" isn't what I'm going to be facing in debt. I am looking at around $195,000 worth of schooling. I am looking at as much financial aid that I can get, but I'm willing to do anything I possibly can to minimize the amount of time I'm in debt. I am definitely not taking what I am getting into for granted.

 

I will say this, if you do end up going make sure and I do mean SURE that they have a strong placement program. U of I was sorely lacking in this department. Just keep in mind the entire time that your endgame is getting a job, not graduating. Work towards finding employment first and foremost. That means choosing the right internships, networking, joining clubs and getting your name out there. Too many JDs push that stuff aside, to their SEVERE detriment.

Thanks for the advice. Definitely something to look towards. I didn't think about organizations but I can see how the network would be important. :3nod:

 

Top 10 law schools are great if you are in NY and want to practice in CA, or you want to clerk for an appellate or Supreme Court justice. However, using Chicago as an example, there are several law schools that have a local reputation as good as Northwestern and University of Chicago but aren't nationally ranked. Chicago has an enormous legal practice field and kids from Loyola, DePaul, IIT, etc are more than welcome in the firms with which I am familiar.

 

For my firm, I have interviewed candidates from both types of schools. It's wonderful to have that name on your resume (mine says Northwestern) but it really depends on the firm you are interviewing with, the type of law they practice, and the type of person they are looking for more than what school they went to.

 

It's the dirty little secret of law school grads that kids fresh out of law school have learned almost nothing practical about the practice of law. They've learned theory. They've learned esoteric concepts. They've learned how to write a brief, and to IRAC, and to research but they lack (almost utterly) any knowledge of the specific practice they are entering. It is for that reason that many firms like kids from top 10 schools because they've demonstrated an ability to learn and an aptitude for absorbing knowledge effectively. That is also the reason many firms LOVE a kid who worked his way through school, maybe clerking, maybe as a cop, but gutted it out day by day and succeeded.

 

There are many ups and down in the practice of law and a nice law school is a small part of what it takes to predict who the good lawyers will be. I'll take the kid who overcame obstacles every step of the way and had to pull themselves up by their bootstraps over a kid from an ivory tower who doesn't show me there's more to himself than a transcript. I guarantee you the bootstrap kid appreciates every last opportunity he gets and knows the value of the situation he finds himself.

 

That's exactly why I'm working for my father.

I'm actually annoyed that 1Ls aren't permitted to work. I do understand...but I don't know what to do with myself when I don't have a job! ;;; I've had a job since I was 14!

 

Well said Chris. My personal opinion is that it is much more important to finish higher in your class than it is to go to a top 10 school. As October pointed out, graduating from a top tier school /= a guaranteed job. But you can bet just about every top 10% student at a Tier 2 or higher school has a job waiting on them.

 

My school was a very practically oriented school, so I always felt I had an edge in that I could hit the ground running a little faster than some of the kids from more prestigious schools in my area. However, I look back and think of law school as just an exercise in learning how to think like a lawyer. The great news is, as October points out, that many other areas of the economy value that training. You don't have to be a lawyer if you go to law school.

I want to be a legal consultant I will do what I have to do to get there, and if that means being a lawyer for some years, that's cool. I'll do it. But I want to do legal research and consulting more than anything else.

I don't know if I'm Top 10% material. I'll work my off to get there, but if I'm not, I know I have the opportunities and abilities to find work. Somewhere, somehow. I have places to go that I can find work in. I'm also not so proud that I'm afraid to work a menial job until I get where I want to be. Maybe I'm unique, maybe I'm not. But I'm going to work my off to get where and what I want.

 

My goal in the end is to start an animal rescue. For them, I'm willing to do what it is gonna take.

 

dammit.

 

 

 

 

((just felt like it needed that emphasis there. ))

[Han]

I do the same. XDDD

THANK YOU -superlovesnug- 8)

BTW, be sure to include this phrasing on any internship resumes.

 

Superlovesnug?

[comicdonna]

I do the same. XDDD

THANK YOU -superlovesnug- 8)

BTW, be sure to include this phrasing on any internship resumes.

 

Superlovesnug?

I would use a phrase, then, sign it Superlovesnug. Make it catchy with lots of XDDD and that other fancy stuff!

 

I wish you the best of luck, Han!

 

 

[the blob]

Han, good luck on your quest!! I think if you get into contract law you could have a lot of available options to you. I also also disagree with the post that there are too many scientists/math/engineering people. If you look, this type of career is mostly outsourced to people from countries that do focus their students in this area. I believe this area can teach you critical thinking, which is a major area we all need work in. I think even Bill Gates did a speech recently on the need for more of a math/science focus.

You might also consider yourself open for dual roles...a CPA/Lawyer is a great occupation to have. I don't think you'd have much problems finding a job with these credentials.

 

the quote Han was referencing was sarcastic/tongue in cheek and i'm pretty sure the poster meant just the opposite.

 

not wanting to get political, but the outsourcing isn't just a matter of not enough science/engineering talent here. i don't think there is not enough, but not enough willing to work for $6-10/hour (or less) rather than the comfortable upper middle class wage (I dunno what that is, I guess $65-$150K depending on where you live) people with that sort of training/education expect (and, honestly, need, at least to raise a family decently)

 

what's crazy is legal work is getting outsourced too. big document review projects used to keep lots of unemployed lawyers/recent graduates busy at $20-$30 an hour (we're talking in NYC and other big cities, so not living high on the hog), but a lot of that has been sent abroad (for I guess $5-$8 an hour or whatever Indian lawyers are willing to take) and what little is available is now beig posted for like $13 an hour (for JDs!). i knew a bunch of people who used experience at those temp jobs as a foothold for getting jobs doing more substantive work with steady salaries and such and now folks don't even have that opportunity.

[Sanj Mitra]

Congrats!!

 

Advice?

 

Don't take it too seriously. And most of all don't let your anal, frantic classmates influence how you study.

 

+1

 

the anal frantics end up working for the the one's who have a life.

[QuickS-migration]

 

Every attorney specializes only in a few different areas. Something like internet fraud practice is new and only going to get bigger. Definitely would look for a niche or how else can you justify spending $195k.

 

[Sanj Mitra]

Best of luck on your goals Han.

 

I am an insolvency lawyer which at first blush may sound depressing but it can be very rewarding. ie helping companies restructure and save jobs. I am very fortunate to be paid for doing something I really enjoy. Stick to doing what you like even if you leave a couple of dollars on the table. You will be much happier in the long run.

 

Cheers

 

Sanj

[Bosco685]

....any advice?

 

((excited for this satire))

 

 

 

Congrats, and enjoy the experience.

[VintageComics]

....any advice?

 

((excited for this satire))

 

 

Han, take a special interest in Japanese law. I expect there will be a lot of unrest there soon.