IF PRESSING ISN'T RESTORATION.....

[THE_BEYONDER]

you learn to live with it, or you get out.

 

What would happen if collectors decided to "get out"?

[THE_BEYONDER]

But what other marketplace or "forum" or "field" exists where the people making up the rules don't have to disclose them, can change them at any time, and will only acknowledge their own oversights and errors retroactively when those mistakes are made public ?

 

 

Hmm...

[fantastic_four]

you learn to live with it, or you get out.

 

What would happen if collectors decided to "get out"?

 

If all the current high grade guys got out, the other 99.9% of comic book collectors probably wouldn't even know they were gone until they saw ebay prices going down. Eventually, the current crop would be replaced. Prices would go down for a while, but the demand would still be pretty high.

 

It continuously amazes me how uptight people get over something they not only can't see, they can't even detect with forensic equipment! It makes those people who continously wash their hands because they're morbidly afraid of germs seem much, much more sane by comparison.

[THE_BEYONDER]

you learn to live with it, or you get out.

 

What would happen if collectors decided to "get out"?

 

If all the current high grade guys got out, the other 99.9% of comic book collectors probably wouldn't even know they were gone until they saw ebay prices going down. Eventually, the current crop would be replaced. Prices would go down for a while, but the demand would still be pretty high.

 

It continuously amazes me how uptight people get over something they not only can't see, they can't even detect with forensic equipment! It makes those people who continously wash their hands because they're morbidly afraid of germs seem much, much more sane by comparison.

 

Resorting to insults already?

[fantastic_four]

Resorting to insults already?

 

I've been meaning to post that comparison for a few weeks but had been forgetting to. Spoke it to a few people on the phone, but this thread reminded me to put it in print.

 

I wouldn't call it an insult, I'd call it an entirely valid comparison, except that GERMS can actually cause a person harm--pressing never will until microscopy is a standard part of the hobby...which likely won't happen before technology ends the hobby forever a few decades from now.

[jbud73]

Beyonder you but he asked a very simple question and I think that the implicit explanation given so far is that CGC does not consider it to be resoration.

 

I disagree wholeheartedly. The implication is not necessarily that CGC doesn't consider pressing to be restoration, the implication is that pressing is a reality of the hobby that CGC can't prove was done intentionally. It's not a matter of them defining it as restoration or not, it's a matter of physical evidence--in most cases, there is very little of it to support whether a press has intentionally occurred or not. And if it's done well, there is NO conclusive physical evidence.

 

Essentially, sfilosa is right--you learn to live with it, or you get out. The same phenomenon exists in the other hobbies as well.

 

Ok thats fine and while - neat and tidy and certainly an easily defensible point to make FF, I was kinda hoping this thread would turn into positing positions and thinking outside the box a little bit.

 

Whether by accident or on purpose Beyonder did not mention CGC in his initial post, the justification was brought in as an asumption after the fact to deal with his question. So whats my point. Well if the answer - and I may not agree with it but recognize it as an valid consideration, is that CGC can't detect it, therefore they don't consider it restoration and therefore we as collectors at large should follow suit. You see I disagree with the final assertion in this line of thinking, or rhetoric is you will.

 

You see here is what I would like to think - as an alternative to a lowest common denomenator simplification. If CGC has assumed this position of imposing grading standards on the hobby in such a way as to exert almost monopolistic influence and we think that CGC is a good thing. Then here is a chance for them to exert a positive influence.

 

If then dont consider it resto because they can't detect it, the implicit logical assumption from this statement is that IT WOULD BE RESTO IF THEY COULD I would whip out the logic text book and quote complemetary statements in complex equations but Its been a while so bere with that assumption.

 

So now the problem becomes how to detect it, not whether its resto or not. And I think that it would be a positive contribution to the comicbook hobby if a Grading Company CGC or otherwise would devote some time to clean and press detection, because saying it is what it is and theres nothing we or anyone else can do about it is a shallow point of view that I must disagree with.

[Rip]

So I guess card collectors are the same. Sports card companies will note if a card is pressed last I checked.

Also didn't Steve seem to think if a comic has a crease then he can tell if the book was pressed. Sounds like most cases to me.

[comicwiz]

I disagree wholeheartedly. The implication is not necessarily that CGC doesn't consider pressing to be restoration, the implication is that pressing is a reality of the hobby that CGC can't prove was done intentionally. It's not a matter of them defining it as restoration or not, it's a matter of physical evidence--in most cases, there is very little of it to support whether a press has intentionally occurred or not. And if it's done well, there is NO conclusive physical evidence.

 

Certainly a debate loaded with opinion and scrutiny from both sides.

 

Ironically, the debate started initially as a situation whereby pressing could not be detected by CGC. IMO, CGC is able to detect whether a book has been pressed or not, but is not compelled to do anything about it purely for the reason that pressing does not defy their blue label diagnosis.

 

Interestingly enough, your opinion seems to have shifted such discussion to one about whether CGC needs to make a judgement call, and essentially decide whether the pressing was performed in an intentional manner or not. To be honest, I don't quite understand this logic, especially in light of what BEYONDER is asking in this thread.

 

It seems pretty straightforward to me that if CGC is able to determine whether a book has been pressed, and comments it on the label, that it shouldn't really matter whether that pressing was performed intentionally or not. WHO CARES! THE BOOK WAS PRESSED.

 

Rather, the only people who will care are those dealers/collectors who might be concerned that a book bearing the comment "PRESSED" will not yield as much as a copy of the same grade which makes no such mention. Oddly enough, wasn't this a similar argument espoused by the conspiracy theorists when CGC removed the grade mention from its new label (ie. NM-, VF-, FN-) and replaced it instead with a number?

[THE_BEYONDER]

I wouldn't call it an insult, I'd call it an entirely valid comparison

 

And the point of the comparison is....?

 

Have you ever heard of " circular logic "?

 

Reading your posts....it appears as if you believe that because pressing can't be seen or detected....it never occurred.

 

Let me ask you this:

 

Why do people press books?

[jbud73]

I think its also important to point out that personally I am in favour of the art of restoring comic books. I have seen ninanina's restored FF #1 and it is a beautiful book. I have a slight problem with the stigma attached to resto, which has in some small way lead us down this path the to the clean and press. Unfortunately, yet again its all about the benjamins.

 

I simply think that disclosure is important and if we are likely not to see this as a voluntary issue, and one of the great torches born for CGC is resto detection then does it not compell them to pay some attention to this as a growing trend.

 

I mean, if not I could play Devils Advocate ad naseum, "what really is the difference between taking an exacto knife and removing 1/2 millimeter off the corner, or putting a book in a press and rubbing it with WonderBread, BOTH have as their goal the improvement of the comicbook do they not?

[FFB]

Not to me. I view a trimmed comic book to be a comic with a 1/32nd inch (or 1/16th inch, as the case may be) chunk out of the entire book. If I were King, I would decree that a trimmed book be given a Blue label with a notation of trimming and a grade no higher than a 2.0.

 

I HATE TRIMMERS.

 

I mean, if not I could play Devils Advocate ad naseum, "what really is the difference between taking an exacto knife and removing 1/2 millimeter off the corner, or putting a book in a press and rubbing it with WonderBread, BOTH have as their goal the improvement of the comicbook do they not?

[THE_BEYONDER]

Not to me. I view a trimmed comic book to be a comic with a 1/32nd inch (or 1/16th inch, as the case may be) chunk out of the entire book. If I were King, I would decree that a trimmed book be given a Blue label with a notation of trimming and a grade no higher than a 2.0.

 

I HATE TRIMMERS.

 

Why do people trim books?

[fantastic_four]

[Well if the answer - and I may not agree with it but recognize it as an valid consideration, is that CGC can't detect it, therefore they don't consider it restoration and therefore we as collectors at large should follow suit. You see I disagree with the final assertion in this line of thinking, or rhetoric is you will.

 

Can we back off of the phrasing "CGC doesn't consider pressing to be restoration" unless someone is able to post a link to a thread where Borock says this? CGC not defining pressing as restoration is entirely different from them declining to note intentional restoration when they can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

 

So now the problem becomes how to detect it, not whether its resto or not. And I think that it would be a positive contribution to the comicbook hobby if a Grading Company CGC or otherwise would devote some time to clean and press detection, because saying it is what it is and theres nothing we or anyone else can do about it is a shallow point of view that I must disagree with.

 

I don't think it's a matter of technology, it's a matter of intent. Some types of pressing ARE detectable. What's not detectable is how the pressing occurred. Was it a result of being at the bottom of a stack of several hundred comics, or was it because somebody stuck it in a book press for a few months? You can spot broken paper fibres that were straightened out, but you can't tell how they got straightened out.

 

Through the course of normal collecting, we don't accidentally replace missing pieces in comics...we don't trim edges off with exacting precision without meaning to...nor do we haphazardly place pinhead-sized color touches on only the color-broken spots on otherwise-VF comics. But we do sometimes put comics under a bunch of pressure.

[jbud73]

Not to me. I view a trimmed comic book to be a comic with a 1/32nd inch (or 1/16th inch, as the case may be) chunk out of the entire book. If I were King, I would decree that a trimmed book be given a Blue label with a notation of trimming and a grade no higher than a 2.0.

 

I HATE TRIMMERS.

 

Why do people trim books?

 

For the same reason they Press Books, my point exactly, and yet .................

[THE_BEYONDER]

it's a matter of intent.

 

BINGO

[fantastic_four]

It seems pretty straightforward to me that if CGC is able to determine whether a book has been pressed, and comments it on the label, that it shouldn't really matter whether that pressing was performed intentionally or not. WHO CARES! THE BOOK WAS PRESSED.

 

It could be that detecting pressing just seems like a lost cause. If it's well done, you can't detect it...so knocking down the Church books at the bottom of the stack seems unfair when people can do it all day out of greed and get away scott-free.

 

The actual answer to the question the thread is titled after is simple--pressing is restoration. How we react to the reality of the complexity in detecting it is the ongoing challenge.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Not to me. I view a trimmed comic book to be a comic with a 1/32nd inch (or 1/16th inch, as the case may be) chunk out of the entire book. If I were King, I would decree that a trimmed book be given a Blue label with a notation of trimming and a grade no higher than a 2.0.

 

I HATE TRIMMERS.

 

Why do people trim books?

 

For the same reason they Press Books, my point exactly, and yet .................

 

[sterlingcomics]

...looks like someone WIPED their $SS on the back cover...looks like someone urinated on it.

 

Aren't these common practices of almost all collectors?

 

"Have you pissed on and wiped with your comics today?"

[fantastic_four]

Reading your posts....it appears as if you believe that because pressing can't be seen or detected....it never occurred.

 

Not at all. I'm saying that if you can't tell, why worry? Live with it, or don't. Or give us a solution that doesn't involve indignant complaining about something beyond everyone's control, which I'm not saying you necessarily do yourself.

 

 

Why do people press books?

 

The answer is self-evident--to improve aesthetics and/or profits.

[Red Hook]

Without full disclosure of their criteria CGC has been able to set the criteria for the comic marketplace.

 

An enviable position to say the least.

 

Well said, Jason!

 

Let's take an example of another highly contentious, subjective field: pro sports. While many decisions and interpretations of rules in the NBA, NFL and Major League Baseball can be debated hotly, at least each sport has an official rule book to which fans, players and officials can all refer.

 

So, much like a book that has been resubbed and gone from 9.0 to 9.2, you can argue from a perceptual standpoint whether a home run ball did in fact land in fair territory, or whether a fielder actually applied the tag to a baserunner, or whether a basketball was on its way down and therefore goal-tended, etc.

 

But what other marketplace or "forum" or "field" exists where the people making up the rules don't have to disclose them, can change them at any time, and will only acknowledge their own oversights and errors retroactively when those mistakes are made public ?

 

Okay, if you want to draw the sports analogy,......go back and watch Ken Burns documentary series "Baseball". What were these guys doing four years after the first game was played? The rules were in flux. In the NFL they were running around with leather helmets. In basketball, they had a bunch of skinny white guys taking two handed set shots at peach baskets. (Well, not quite!)

 

CGC is four years old. The slabbing of comic books is in it's infancy. The rules of this particular game are still evolving. Hopefully, we might even have something to contribute to defining them. Project yourself ten years, no, try five and you are going to see grading criteria that had to be made public. CGC has operated without serious competition so far. They have reacted pretty normally. Considering they have been in operation a mere four years, they have accomplished quite a bit.

 

But, you are going to see serious competition to CGC's position in the grading arena on the landscape. CGC will still be leading the field, I predict. They have maintained their lead because they prepared ahead, and have made fewer mistakes. Not none, fewer. Their credibility is still excellent. No one has seriously challenged them. CGG has proven, at least to this point, that you need more than a simulacrum of the holder and a website.

 

CGC has stated that they do not consider professional pressing restoration. In other words, I think, they don't consider pressing that they can't prove, restoration. Not easy. There is no lab test that I know of to detect professional pressing.

 

I've said this before....I don't think there is any way to detect really good pressing done on a raw book and submitted. I sure as hell can't. All you can gather is circumstantial evidence, like the Green Rivers I called out, and only because GRs are easily traced, and the two books I ticketed were resubs. Otherwise, I wouldn't have had a clue.

 

One rule of thumb I have almost subconciously applied when I look over auctions on Ebay, is, if the book is a high end silver age book, with a newer label, and a score of 9.6 or above, from a known dealer (read that Jason Ewert), I assume there is at least a fair chance that this is a resub that was pressed. Then, I have to make a decision about whether I REALLY want the book or not. That is exactly the case with the Green River 9.6 Daredevil 18 currently on Heritage. I know it was a resub that was originally a 9.4. I am assuming JE might very well have put it up there. Do I want to pay mega bucks for a book I would love to own? In the end, knowing what I know, I won't pull the $1,000 trigger on it, knowing that four months ago it was a $400 book. It's just against my born-in-the-Bronx, don't-let-anyone-screw-ya' nature. For anyone else, it's personal choice, assuming they have a clue as to what's going on!

 

I'll throw this question out. Assuming CGC could not detect a top notch pressing job, what are you all going to do about it?

 

And second, if you knew a book had been professionally pressed, (say a notation on the label), along with a guarantee from the dealer that if it reverted back to an unpressed state in the slab, you could get your dough back, would you feel better about buying it?