Next Age?

[Zonker]

 

You must have missed those stirring 1971 issues:

 

"Archie Andrews: Coke Snorting Pimp"

 

"Jughead: My Best Friend's a Heroin Addict"

 

"Mr Lodge: Pot Kingpin"

 

Found 'em!

 

[Zonker]

Braun, Saul. "Shazam! Here Comes Captain Relevant", New York Times, May 2, 1971, pg.SM32. (This is a long article from the NYT Magazine that is a treasure trove of info on how great the push for greater content flexibility was in the industry at the dawn of the 70s. Excellent stuff from Lee, Goodman, Infantino, Kirby, and more. A must read IMO if the emergence of the Bronze Age is of interest.)

 

_douglas

 

Thanks for the pointer, Douglas. I just downloaded the Saul Braun article. A great artifact from the times. Interesting though that it spends most of its time talking about:

- the Spidey drug books

- GL/GA

- Kirby's 4th World books

- even Archie tackling environmental and diversity issues!

 

Captain America, Black Widow, Lois Lane also merit mention, but no word on Conan or the New/Old Look Batman by O'Neil & Adams.

 

And of course, not to beat a dead horse, but all the above stuff was in the works well before any CCA revision.

 

I was particularly interested in the quotes from Carmine Infantino and Stan Lee: They both seem to acknowledge that the 1970 relevance experiment was DC's attempt to leapfrog past Marvel. The "Marvel Age," beginning in 1961, had clearly made the older DC Silver Age approach obsolete. Infantino is really crowing here about his GL/GA and New Gods, while Stan comes across as having a justifiable case of sour grapes, since the super-heroes-in-the-real-world approach is something he had popularized years before.

 

Of course, Stan had the last laugh as the DC experiments failed, Infantino was sacked, and by the middle of the 1970s Marvel was on top to stay...

[gifflefunk]

And of course, not to beat a dead horse, but all the above stuff was in the works well before any CCA revision.

 

For the record we never claimed the Code was the reason, just that it makes for a good focal point as no single book can be isolated as the cause for the changes that occured between Silver Age content and Bronze Age content. I think there are probably a good sized list of books that can be given as pushing for a change in the 1955 Code to address how comics were dealing, or wanted to deal, with drugs, horror, race-relations, etc. The Code is just the point when change under the approval process became official and books that would normally be rejected could now be published with CCA blessing. Along the same lines I consider the books listed in SOTI as being the key books that brought about the end of the Golden Age (pre-code), and hence forced the creation of Silver Age content (1955 Code approved books).

 

Doug & Arnold... I'm dying to read the article in the OPG now!!!

[joe_collector]

For the record we never claimed the Code was the reason, just that it makes for a good focal point as no single book can be isolated as the cause for the changes that occured between Silver Age content and Bronze Age content.

 

Conan #1.

 

Violence, horror elements and creatures, death-dealing, sex, amoral, non-super hero ....

[gifflefunk]

If you can show me all those elements in Conan #1 then maybe I'll reconsider my position.

[gifflefunk]

... and drugs and race-issues... you show me those too (forgot to mention those )

[joe_collector]

It's pretty obvious you've gone Code-crazy, as you cannot have one book that covers off 100% of your requirements.

 

This is obviously your angle, and by choosing to go with the utterly simplistic "Code Rules All" theory, you can then belittle 100% of Gold, Silver and Bronze books that don't match up to each and every change that the Code ever went through. Wow, good work.

 

In your world, comics likely do not exist, only the revered Code, and all must bow before its overriding power.

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

Like I said, most people will probably be happy...

 

 

Actually, as you will see when you read the article, what we *do* point out as specific points of transition do not in any way preclude the use of or recognition of *other* books as well. I'm quite sure some people will manage to forget this point later on, but for those of you reading this now, just remember that because we point out specifics, we are not suggesting that they are the only books of note for those Ages nor are we saying that this is the only way to interpret the whole thing. This is just how we're going to characterize it.

 

Now just wait and see how many people claim we're trying to dictate rules to everyone else and forget the whole thing about it being an opinion. You can set your watch by it.

 

Arnold

[joe_collector]

Hey, in the long run, who really cares what anyone else, including OS, thinks?

 

I mean, we're all intelligent people, and we should be able to see the obvious pros and cons of any "theory", and if I thought Conan 1, GL/GA 76, or another comic was the impetus for the Bronze Age and forced the Code in a new direction, then I'm not going to read some reactive balderdash in OS and suddenly change my mind.

 

I do agree that the reactionary Code changes give us an opportunity to map the changes (albeit a bit late), but I think any rational person can see the gaping flaws in a theory that promotes the Code was the catalyst for Age-level changes in the comic book landscape, and was the source of all creativity and social change.

 

That theory fails the most important litmus test of all: the laws of time and space.

 

Well before the Code got around to *changing* the rules in 1971, Stan and Carmine had the Bronze horses out of the barn for a run, and then back again.

[gifflefunk]

I'm not trying to peg the Code as the reason, unlike some others that keep screaming things like Conan #1 as being the turning point. I fully accept that there are MANY books that pushed for a change.... I recently posted the following on the eBay thread:

 

Ideally the key books for causing the Silver Age would be the same ones folks have been hunting down for years... namely those mentioned in SOTI. These are the books that contributed to the end of the Golden Age and caused the Code era, and hence the creation of Silver Age books.

 

What I would like to see is a well researched list of all the books that pushed for a change in the 1955 Code and helped to create the revised 1971 Code. Those books would seem to be Keys that deserve more attention.

 

I don't belittle the books in favor of the Code, I just don't think you can nail down the start of one Age and the end of another with a single book, and with that being the case the CCA changes make for convenient points to align the Ages on instead of some old DC fan-based dictum of the Ages that has been passed down through the years with no solid research behind it for support.

 

And If you somehow think this is a simplistic approach then you probably need go re-read the eBay thread and the material posted on this thread. The simplistic approach is to accept Action #1, Showcase #4, and GL #76 as the defining moment the Ages changed without researched facts to back it up.

 

(or maybe I'm am just a loon... we'll see when the new OPG hits the streets)

[gifflefunk]

In the meantime I need to go work on the argument for the removal of Big Little Books from the new OPG and the inclusion of cartoon digests!

[joe_collector]

And If you somehow think this is a simplistic approach then you probably need go re-read the eBay thread and the material posted on this thread.

 

You mean you REALLY don't understand why your *theory* is utterly simplistic?

 

P.S. Were you actively buying Marvel and DC comics from the early 60's to Today?

[joe_collector]

or maybe I'm am just a loon... we'll see when the new OPG hits the streets

 

What does that mean? If it hits OS (as you know it will), then you're automatically "right".

 

Here, let me pour a cup of water in your ear, just to see if you're totally full of yourself.

[dgillock]

It's pretty obvious you've gone Code-crazy, as you cannot have one book that covers off 100% of your requirements

 

IMO, no single book, event, or factor can be seen as an individual line in the sands of time fully denoting an Age shift. That wish is one of the nostalgic collector and not the historian. It's an accumlation of factors that once reaching a level of critical mass, mark a change from one era to the next. GL #76, ASM #96, Conan #1, HoS #92, Kirby's move from Marvel, New Gods #1, the overwhelming desire for greater content flexibilty by creators, the 1971 Code revision- all are important events that denote the transition from Silver to Bronze. Change takes time...

 

The Code is especially helpful if only because it was an industry-wide circumstance as opposed to a company specific situation. If you don't care for viewing the Age shifts through the lense of Code revision, fine; there are plenty of other options to cover the same periods of transition.

 

_douglas

[Zonker]

The simplistic approach is to accept Action #1, Showcase #4, and GL #76 as the defining moment the Ages changed without researched facts to back it up.

 

Interesting, we have on the one extreme the "Mr. Silver Age" / Dave Blanchard camp that says super-heroes *must* define the Ages, and on the other extreme, douglas and gifflefunk who go so far as to discard Action #1 and Showcase #4 as mileposts because they are too hero-centric.

 

Arnold, I'm sure you'll find a way to delight us all with your solution! (No pressure...)

 

(or maybe I'm am just a loon... we'll see when the new OPG hits the streets)

 

Surely you don't need Overstreet to make that determination for you?

 

==========================================================================

 

For my part, I think the only reason to have a Golden/Silver/Bronze Age is to link certain themes or approaches or styles of storytelling together. Kind of like the reason people speak of Baroque or Classical or Romantic or Modern music. And yes, there will always be borderline cases, like Beethoven was both the last of the Classical composers and first of the Romantics.

 

So from this point of view, the pre-Code and post-Code is an interesting footnote, as are the various revisions to the Code. But no more interesting than the shift from newstand to direct distribution. What interests me is the effect, if any, all those external events had on comics storytelling itself. So sure, after the 1971 code revision you could have classical vampires, werewolves and the like, and non-glamorized drug use, but I just don't see that as such a major shift compared to the pre-existing trends towards moral ambiguity, social commentary, literary pretensions, and supernatural elements that pre-date 1971 books. But that's just me!

[dgillock]

Interesting, we have on the one extreme the "Mr. Silver Age" / Dave Blanchard camp that says super-heroes *must* define the Ages, and on the other extreme, douglas and gifflefunk who go so far as to discard Action #1 and Showcase #4 as mileposts because they are too hero-centric.

 

Action Comics #1 is hands down the single most important comic ever published and one of the most influential American publications of all time... But, that's just my opinion.

 

Showcase #4 I'm a little less firm on, but do believe that the re-emergence of the super-hero genre as an industry leader is of primary importance in denoting the Silver Age (but, they kind of had to try this since two of the leading genres of the early 50's, crime and horror, were elimated almost overnight by the CCA).

 

Gifflefunk and I share many opinions on these issues, but I would imagine we also have many differences. We've gone back and forth on this and other topics before.

 

_douglas

[joe_collector]

My big problem with using the Code to define the Comic Ages, is that it totally disregards the creators, readers, concepts and stories that created what we now refer as the Golden, Silver and Bronze Ages.

 

The Comics Code is a set of laws or standards that regulate the comic book industry, and by their very nature, are reactive. Stan Lee didn't sit down to write his infamous ASM drug stories because the Code allowed him, and in fact, the opposite was true. His "code disobedience" led to the issue being published without a Code seal, and set yet another statement to the Comics Code.

 

DC had already been pushing (or ripping) the envelope with their horror books, GL/GA was working the "social relevance" theme, and Conan burst onto the scene and broke quite a few Code rules. There were many other books doing similar things, and well before the Code reacted to this quantum shift with a new set of regulations.

 

Always remember that there were creators working on these Code-Busting books, and this new wave of concepts and ideas forced the Comics Code to change. It did not happen in a vacuum, and only the most simplistic of people would look at the changes to the Code as the true catalyst behind the movement, rather than the creators who had been practicing "code disobedience" for years. The Code simply confirmed what these innovative creators had already been doing, and lead to its proliferance, but not its birth.

 

Now to bring in a more relevant comparison, let's look at the Civil Rights movement in the 1950's and 60's (Of course, there were civil rights leaders back much farther than that, but this was the "boiling point" where blacks pushed the envelope and forced change.). From a simplistic, hindsight point of view, some would say that blacks received their civil rights, for the first time, when JFK passed the Civil Rights Act in 1964-65. That was the bill that governed and enforced civil rights, and if you like detemining history using a Cracker copy of the Encyclopedia Britannica, then that's the end of that story.

 

But of course that ignores the many blacks who were ALREADY exercising their civil rights, people like Rosa Parks, Thurgood Marshall, The Little Rock Nine, and Martin Luther King, Jr. These ground-breakers and many others, didn't wait around for the law to fit the times, and forced the government to change, revoke and enforce its civil rights laws. It was no different than any law, bill, regulation or code that was ever passed or revised, and its catalyst were the people, the lawyers, the leaders and others who fought for equality.

 

Now some may dispute exactly when the 1950's movement started, and although many identify with Rosa Park's historic bus ride, others point to the Little Rock Nine, Martin Luthor King or even Malcolm X as the true catalyst.

 

That's a valid debate, but anyone sticking his nose in with a "JFK commenced black civil liberties with the bill in 1964" would be totally incorrect, and a insufficiently_thoughtful_person to boot. You may have trouble picking the exact moment in the 1950's where it all erupted, but that's no excuse to quote the Civil Rights Bill of 1964, and insult those who exercised their civil rights and forced its passage.

 

End Sermon.

[dgillock]

Interesting thing about the CCA and its revisions: The CCA was (is?) administered by the members of the Comics Magazine Association of America- in other words, the CCA was a self-administering body. When the decisions were made to revise the Code in Jan 1971, April 1971, and 1989, it was the publishers themselves who were setting the limits of what was allowable. The CCA is not the FCC (though under it's original administration in the mid-1950's under Charles F. Murphy it may as well have been).

 

My take is that initially in the mid-50s, the publishers submitted their industry to a tremendous level of scrutiny as well as internal constraint in order to save themselves from a tremendous public-outcry that had grown over many years. The concern over content in comics did not spring from the head of Wertham in 1953, but had being brewing for nearly a decade. But, by the late 60's/early 70s, after 15 years of self-censorship, they looked around at how the world had changed and began coming to a consensus that the industry had served it's penance.

 

Over a period of a couple of years, they pushed the boundaries not only of the content that was allowable within the CCA Code, but also with what people had generally come to expect in the four color format in the USA. This general push culminated in the dual Code revisions in 1971- again, revisions made from within the industry. The Code revisions were not the only deliniator of the shift, but they were certainly important; more important in my mind than any single individual character, title, or issue as they opened up allowable content for all publishers.

 

_douglas

[joe_collector]

The Code revisions were not the only deliniator of the shift, but they were certainly important; more important in my mind than any single individual character, title, or issue as they opened up allowable content for all publishers.

 

Sure, and if we're ever discussing the Most Important Bronze Age Factor, you can dutifully submit the Comics Code and it will receive its due attention.

 

Now back to what STARTED the Golden, Silver and Bronze Ages.

[Zonker]

Thanks for the clarification, Douglas. Sorry to paint with a too-broad brush.

 

By the way, welcome to the boards to both you and Gifflefunk! Things have been kinda slow around here lately, at least for those disinclined to discuss the minutia of pressed comics in a blue CGC label...

 

Interesting, we have on the one extreme the "Mr. Silver Age" / Dave Blanchard camp that says super-heroes *must* define the Ages, and on the other extreme, douglas and gifflefunk who go so far as to discard Action #1 and Showcase #4 as mileposts because they are too hero-centric.

 

Action Comics #1 is hands down the single most important comic ever published and one of the most influential American publications of all time... But, that's just my opinion.

 

Showcase #4 I'm a little less firm on, but do believe that the re-emergence of the super-hero genre as an industry leader is of primary importance in denoting the Silver Age (but, they kind of had to try this since two of the leading genres of the early 50's, crime and horror, were elimated almost overnight by the CCA).

 

Gifflefunk and I share many opinions on these issues, but I would imagine we also have many differences. We've gone back and forth on this and other topics before.

 

_douglas