Top Overstreet grade now 9.2

[awe4one]

that makes sense. WONDER why they didnt come to that conclusion too?

 

They wouldn't be able to hype the Price Review in quite the same way for one.....

 

Jim

[Darthdiesel]

That's why they have OS advisors that should be trusted to give him correct info.

 

I knew it!!!...It's all Darths fault!!!...

 

[dgillock]

Yea, I would prefer selective removal of the 9.4 column. Perhaps for Gold comics, top guide would be 9.0...for Silver it would be 9.2...for Bronze 9.4...and for Modern 9.6. It's mostly above those grades that the supply goes way down for those ages and the prices go nutty.

 

Yes! They already make this differentiation with Victorian and Platinum (topping at FN and VF respectively), so why not point out the similar situation with Gold, Silver, Bronze, and Modern?

 

If they were just dropping 9.4 for pre-1980, I would support the decision in principle (though I think it would completely confuse a lot of people). But capping books from the 80's & up at 9.2 just perpetuates the mythology that the majority of these books are scarce, i.e "valuable", in 9.0 to 9.4. They aren't... Making this cut across the board 1930 to 2004 is going to cause more problems than it will solve.

 

Has anyone from OS chimed in on this yet?

 

_douglas

[awe4one]

[Has anyone from OS chimed in on this yet?

 

No....

 

Jim

[sterlingcomics]

I don't think this was done to help ME...

 

Of course it wasn't. It was done to make money.

 

But I just love all of the various reasons given to the collector. Sorry, I've had my daily dose of BS...

[sterlingcomics]

Some thoughts...

 

Perhaps in the front of the price guide it will say, "Interpret 9.4 for all 9.2 prices from books dated after 1980."

 

I am now wondering if Overtreet will now eliminate the 9.0 grading column since now they have a 9.2 column?

 

I had a problem with the guide being interpreted incorrectly last year due to the 6 pricing columns of 2.0, 4.0, 6.0, 8.0, 9.0 and 9.4. This tactic could lower 8.0 books into the midgrade catagory, which WOULD BE WRONG!! Think about it. Low grade would be the 2.0 and 4.0 listings, midgrade would be the 6.0 and 8.0 listing, and high grade would be 9.0 and 9.4 listings! I know of no collector or dealer who thinks 8.0 is midgrade, but the guide could be misinterpreted in that fashion. If OS eliminated the 9.0 column and made it's value the difference between 8.0 and 9.2 that would be accurate, IMO.

 

Timely

 

Call me lazy, but don't I buy the OSPG so I don't have to interpret? I mean, it's a book with pages, and information--why do I need to think and interpret....oh, I forgot-- THEY JUST WANT MORE OF MY MONEY....

[Rocketeer]

So forgive me if this has already been answered,...cause I've only been able to skim through this thread this past weekend,.......Can anyone answer these basic questions for me...

 

1.) Is the new 9.2 price going to be the same as the old 9.4 price in Overstreet?

 

B.) Are the new 9.4 prices (which are now listed in the monthly Overstreet?)

going to be in multiples or will they be close to last years 9.4's?...

 

4.) What are dealers now going to charge us for raw "9.4's",...is it going to be a price that represents a slab price or the raw price?....

[shadroch]

When I am buying a raw 9.4,I'll try to use this formula-slabbed 9.4 price minus the cost of slabbing and RT postage.

Thus if a book sells for$50 in 9.4,I'll try to buy it for about $20, same as I do now.

On ebay I'll bid on raw 9.4s as if they are Fines,same as I do now.

Just because the guide has changed its methods,it doesn't follow that I must change mine.

While some folks are paying those multiples of guide for 9.4s and 9.6s,I'll be be buying multiple copies of the same books,only in 6.0-9.0,and at huge discounts.

[Aman619]

While some folks are paying those multiples of guide for 9.4s and 9.6s,I'll be be buying multiple copies of the same books,only in 6.0-9.0,and at huge discounts.

 

I have also bought many multiples in many different grades (though not really on purpose all the time!) so I m curious why you are currently buying as low as 6.0?? Even if you get a huge discount off Guide, its not really a savings since your buy price IS what they are worth isnt it??

[lighthouse]

The 9.4 market is indeed a volatile market... but not for every single book. In fact, for most books, I'd suspect that the 9.4 price was fairly accurate.

 

Yea, I would prefer selective removal of the 9.4 column. Perhaps for Gold comics, top guide would be 9.0...for Silver it would be 9.2...for Bronze 9.4...and for Modern 9.6. It's mostly above those grades that the supply goes way down for those ages and the prices go nutty.

 

I like the change. I like it as a buyer and I like it as a seller...

 

9.2 is the top grade that is consistently connected to the pricing of the lower grades. If you take 50 different books that sell (not guide, but sell) for $100 in raw 9.2 condition, I think you will find that the spread those books sell for in 6.0 or 4.0 or 2.0 won't be very large. You can apply consistent multipliers to prices that are realized in any of those grades and do a reasonable job extrapolating the other values. So when you see sales reported of a book in 6.0 or 4.0 you can get a sensible estimate of where the 8.0s and 9.2s should be of that book.

 

Trying to get a sense of where the 9.4s are based on the 6.0s is asinine, and trying to peg a 6.0 price based on what slabbed 9.4's are doing is equally crazy. So using an econometric model that ties low grade prices to the 9.4 price yields terrible results. But I believe you can successfully connect 9.2 prices with 4.0 prices, and the ability to do so means that the Guide has an opportunity to more accurately reflect the market.

 

On some books, 9.4s won't carry much of a premium over 9.2s. Even if your copy of Spidey 208 is a 9.4 you won't command twice as high a price as the listed 9.2 Guide price. There just isn't a premium at that level for that book. The buyers know they don't need to pay one, and the sellers know they can't command one. But both buyer and seller know that Spidey 20 does command a premium in 9.4, and they also both know that there aren't enough sales for an annual guide to tell them what that premium should be. So they are free to choose a price that suits them both.

 

A price guide is supposed to follow a market, not lead it. Let me say that again... A price guide is supposed to follow a market, not lead it. And again... A price guide is supposed to follow a market, not lead it. And again... A price guide is supposed to follow a market, not lead it.

 

Adjusting the top price down to 9.2 makes it easier for the Guide to follow the market. It makes it easier for the Guide to reflect what is actually going on in the marketplace. It makes it easier for the Guide to show us where we have been. The fact that it also means sellers and buyers have to find their own way on high-end books is fine by me. They should have been leading the Guide anyway.

 

Lighthouse

 

And yes, for the 167 of you that ordered an Overstreet from me, I will be passing along the Price Review free of charge*, and I will even eat the additional shipping cost. That's just the kind of guy I am...

 

*assuming of course that I actually receive them in the first place...

[shadroch]

Has anyone even considered the possibility this is an April Fools prank?

[fantastic_four]

On some books, 9.4s won't carry much of a premium over 9.2s. Even if your copy of Spidey 208 is a 9.4 you won't command twice as high a price as the listed 9.2 Guide price. There just isn't a premium at that level for that book. The buyers know they don't need to pay one, and the sellers know they can't command one. But both buyer and seller know that Spidey 20 does command a premium in 9.4, and they also both know that there aren't enough sales for an annual guide to tell them what that premium should be. So they are free to choose a price that suits them both.

 

A price guide is supposed to follow a market, not lead it. Let me say that again... A price guide is supposed to follow a market, not lead it. And again... A price guide is supposed to follow a market, not lead it. And again... A price guide is supposed to follow a market, not lead it.

 

Yes...but a price guide shouldn't follow by a decade, should it? If they're gonna wait that long, there's no reason to print or buy the thing every year. Don't you think they should list 9.4, possibly even 9.6, for Moderns? They're not highly unpredictable like the older books, wouldn't you agree?

[dgillock]

Lighthouse's post makes sense to me and it's the certainly the best hypothetical explanation of this move I've heard so far. My understanding of his points is that OS is saying that the "true NM" market has become distinct from the "regular back issue" market and that prices for 9.4+ copies can not be directly intrepreted from the scale of 2.0 to 9.2 pricing. If I'm picking up his points correctly, I think that this is certainly true. Using this interpretation, I'm beginning to have less of a problem with this change in theory.

 

In action, I'm going to have to see what exactly they've done to the value information that remains. What are they going to do with all the stuff from the 80's and 90's that really only has "value" if it is 9.4 or better? Remove them from the Guide in general, or are they actually going to print that most of these books can be had 5 for a dollar in VF? Or are they going to simply edit 9.4 into 9.2 and account for it with inflation? This doesn't seem very important now, but keep in mind that someday some of these comics might be considered "important". Should be interesting.

[Zanarkand]

I have read through all these posts and carefully considered everyone's positions, including that it may be an April Fool's prank. I offer the following comment:

 

Lowering the top tier to 9.2 was an incredibly stupid decision.

 

Gemstone/Overstreet has now officially de-legitimized the NM grade. By reporting it only in the monthly review, which reports only slabbed sales, they have said to all collectors everywhere "Your NM comics are now no longer NM. NM is only NM when CGC says it is."

 

Consider - Has Overstreet stripped the NM grade from comics? No, they have not! They have stripped the grade from raw comics only! They have declared that only CGC NM comics are "real" NM comics worthy of noting in their guide, in spite of full knowledge that there are millions of easily discernable NM comics that have not been slabbed.

 

There are millions of true NM and higher books out there that will never be slabbed because they simply aren't worth it. A large portion of everything from the 80s, 90s, and 00s is NM at least. More NM and higher books are being printed every day. The vast majority will never be slabbed. Despite the atmosphere around here, remember that books worth slabbing remain an extreme minority.

 

Collectors now have to guess what their NM books are worth, or on the buying side, are priced fairly. Sure, we had to guess for 9.6 etc before, but now we have to guess for 9.4 too! As has been stated, since when does adding guesswork to the equation improve things?!

 

This will lead to volatility across the board in the (thriving, by the way) raw NM comic market. Volatility reduces accuracy and increases risk! It is never a good thing! I am surprised and dismayed that Overstreet would make such an obviously overt decision to harm the market, and themselves.

[joe_collector]

On some books, 9.4s won't carry much of a premium over 9.2s. Even if your copy of Spidey 208 is a 9.4 you won't command twice as high a price as the listed 9.2 Guide price.

 

So why again shouldn't Modern books be listed at 9.4 or even 9.6, then?

 

Or the opposite, is Overstreet going to lower the price (sometimes significantly) on Modern books in the 9.2 range, to better reflect the reality of the market?

[awe4one]

Trying to get a sense of where the 9.4s are based on the 6.0s is asinine, and trying to peg a 6.0 price based on what slabbed 9.4's are doing is equally crazy.

 

Did OS ever say they were extrapolating slabbed data? They should be reporting on what raw 9.4s sell at in the marketplace. I understand your point of extrapolating the values downward and the problem doing so with some of the 9.4 data. But no one's said that their price spreads have to be consistent throughout the guide. If Stupendous Man #1 is selling for $40 in 6.0 and only $80 in 9.4 then the guide should note that. They should be reporting what's occurring in the market, not using standard extrapolations for all comics. Leaving raw 9.4 data out isn't helping... More information is good, less is bad.....

 

But I believe you can successfully connect 9.2 prices with 4.0 prices, and the ability to do so means that the Guide has an opportunity to more accurately reflect the market.

 

I understand where you're coming from with this but it still doesn't negate the need for 9.4 data to be in the guide. What's the problem of noting that one comic sells for 6X the 9.2 price (of 9.0 for that matter) and another sells for 2X?

 

On some books, 9.4s won't carry much of a premium over 9.2s. Even if your copy of Spidey 208 is a 9.4 you won't command twice as high a price as the listed 9.2 Guide price. There just isn't a premium at that level for that book. The buyers know they don't need to pay one, and the sellers know they can't command one. But both buyer and seller know that Spidey 20 does command a premium in 9.4, and they also both know that there aren't enough sales for an annual guide to tell them what that premium should be. So they are free to choose a price that suits them both.

 

I think the info should be in the book for the buyer to decide. Buyers that aren't as informed as those in this Forum and don't know that a ASM #208 is as common as weeds may be taken by sellers capitalizing on their ignorance. If the seller wants to justify his higher price then well.....that's the price of being a seller.

 

Adjusting the top price down to 9.2 makes it easier for the Guide to follow the market. It makes it easier for the Guide to reflect what is actually going on in the marketplace. It makes it easier for the Guide to show us where we have been. The fact that it also means sellers and buyers have to find their own way on high-end books is fine by me. They should have been leading the Guide anyway.

 

OS gets their data from advisors who are supposedly out there selling comics and reporting prices back. Sorting through this data and providing an annual guide is the result. Nobody said it was an easy job for Gemstone but I expect the price guide to report spreads of comics from the lowest grade to the highest grade of NM. Not NM-, not VF, not even MT but NM. I can live with the Good to NM spread as that's the spread that the vast majority of collectors look for. If OS can't provide this spread anymore, I don't see the need for them to continue publishing a price guide.

 

Jim

[dgillock]

Or the opposite, is Overstreet going to lower the price (sometimes significantly) on Modern books in the 9.2 range, to better reflect the reality of the market?

 

This is what I'm waiting to see. If they don't, I can't imagine this working.

[Marvelous]

I know I am in the minority of opinion on this issue, but I will throw in my 2 cents anyhow.

 

My opinion is that this change in the new 2004 guide is happening because Overstreet in particular and a lot of independent collectors/investors in general don't want to factor in the prices paid for CGC graded comics into the Overstreet guide. If they used prices paid for CGC comics in the guide the values would more accurately reflect the actual market. Raw comic book dealers who have a reputation of accurately grading would also benefit with increased profits. People who don't have a history of accurately grading their raw comics would be avoided. Terms like "I paid 9X guide" would become almost obsolete because the guide wouldn't be so out of whack as it is now. Instead of being bold by factoring CGC prices into the guide and bringing a little stability to the market Overstreet dodged the issue entirely leaving more uncertainty. Any way you look at it CGC forced Overstreet to change its business practices (for the worse in my opinion). Overstreet chose to ignore the 5 ton elephant in the room with them instead of addressing the problem head-on and putting the issue to rest.

 

And another thing!...

 

I noticed a lot of people who have claimed time and time again that they don't care about the value of their comics posting about this new change and how it will effect the value of comics. Changes in a price guide shouldn't matter to those who claim they don't care about the value of their comics.

[joe_collector]

II noticed a lot of people who have claimed time and time again that they don't care about the value of their comics posting about this new change and how it will effect the value of comics. Changes in a price guide shouldn't matter to those who claim they don't care about the value of their comics.

 

Read the comments again, and you'll see that most are worried how this lame decision will affect RAW PRICES PAID, and how dealers could possibly manipulate the new OS to their own ends.

 

Honestly, I expect OS to just insert last year's 9.4 column into the current 9.2 space, which would HELP RAISE prices on NM raw books. Why would you think people are complaining about devaluation, when the opposite is in effect?

[CompleteRunComics]

 

I wonder how this information regarding the 9.2 grade max would have affected preorders of the new OS had folks known about it before they plunked down their $30 or so. By some crazy snafu I had not placed an order for the new OS yet and, well, I think I just saved myself a few bucks.

 

So just bump all the previous OS 9.4 prices to 9.2, 9.2 to 9.0 and so forth and call it this years OS?

 

 

CRC