May I ask a question?

[tth2]

Avengers 4 is the reintro of Cap into silver age continuity. But the Cap character appeared twice before in the silver age (Sgt. Fury 13 and Strange Tales 114).

Avengers 4 was 9 months before Sgt Fury 13.

 

ST 114 WAS earlier than Avengers 4, but it doesn`t count because it was an imposter. At best it was Stan Lee priming the pump for the return of Cap by reviving fans` memories of Cap, but it wasn`t Cap. So I don`t think the importance of Avengers 4 gets diluted by ST 114.

[MrBedrock]

Avengers 4 is the reintro of Cap into silver age continuity. But the Cap character appeared twice before in the silver age (Sgt. Fury 13 and Strange Tales 114).

Avengers 4 was 9 months before Sgt Fury 13.

[adamstrange]

But of the small percentage who do who already collect Spideys, if I lay out the same price comparisons for them and show them how undervalued golden age Superman is to silver age Spider-Man they, almost to a person, decide to add at least a few GA books to their collections.

There's no need to create more competition.

[HouseofComics.Com]

I wonder if some of the greater interest in the Supermans is simply that they have more mystique because the casual fans know that they`re "really old" and not commonly seen, whereas the Spidermans are considered contemporary (even though in fact they`re 50 years old versus 70 years old for the Supermans) and not quite as mysterious.

 

Yes, I think they are far more mysterious. Even a "lame" little comic book store could have single digit ASMs from time to time. But they will almost never have low number Supermans. You can also go to your local small show and see the ASMs, no problem.

 

This is a very interesting thread--I see the record prices for SA Marvels bandied about on here but have never compared them to actual prices seen for the GA books. Kind of a shock, what I'm reading in this thread.

[Ted Knight]

But of the small percentage who do who already collect Spideys, if I lay out the same price comparisons for them and show them how undervalued golden age Superman is to silver age Spider-Man they, almost to a person, decide to add at least a few GA books to their collections.

There's no need to create more competition.

 

+1

[Ted Knight]

I just had a thought. Given the relative disparity between high grade copies and low grade copies in GA, SA, and especially BA comics, wouldn't it be valuable to have some sort of "all grades average"?

 

In other words, there are many books in the SA and BA that are worth thousands in 9.6 or 9.8 but barely sell for $30 in 6.0 (think Amazing Spiderman 69, for example). If you could somehow average that disparity across all grades, then it might be a better comparison. I agree that supply and demand are the primary considerations and that the number of SA collectors far exceeds the number of GA collectors. But it seems like there is more to it than just what the highest graded copies are doing. It could be there is a perceptual ceiling that all comics have for value and we're seeing similar prices between GA and SA due to that.

 

If you took an average across all grades I think relative value across all eras would be clearer.

[MrBedrock]

This whole topic has really hit home with me in the last few months. When I opened my first store in '90 I made the decision to stop collecting silver age because I didn't want to compete with my customers. I've stuck to that, only adding a few marginal books post 1960. But my favorite comics of all time are the first 75 or so issues of Fantastic Four. I loved them when I was a kid, and I still go back and reread that run every few years. So recently I've had thoughts of putting together a 9.0 run of 1 to 60 of FF. I have a killer run of Marvel Mystery 1-30 and most of the issues in top of census through 60. Of those fifty odd books I only ever had to shell out five-figures for five. If I were putting the run together now that number would probably be around twenty. If I wanted to put together a run of FF at or near top of census just about every issue through 30 would cost at least $10,000.

And FF 1 would be substantially more than Marvel 1 in the top couple of spots on the census. As it is an FF 1 in 9.0 (which would be one of the top eight copies) will cost around $100,000, significantly more that the $60,000 I spent on a 6.0 Marvel 1 (one of the top ten copies).

[adamstrange]

Good post but this one statement below caught my eye about there being 20 Marvel Mystery comics that would cost more than $100K Did you mean $10k?

 

Of those fifty odd books I only ever had to shell out six-figures for five. If I were putting the run together now that number would probably be around twenty.

[markseifert]

You would think, but check this...Marvel Mystery 4 versus Avengers 4...both books that are considered semi-keys. Marvel 4 has the first Sub-mariner cover and one of the earliest depictions of Nazi Germany as an enemy. Avengers 4 with the return of Captain America to comics. The highest graded Avengers 4 is 9.6. There are seven of them. One sold late last year for over $60,000 and one sold recently for over $90,000! The second highest is 9.4. There are 25 of them. They regularly sell for over $20,000 with one bringing $30,000 in the last few months.

 

The market on low/mid grade Timely drive me crazy, though. Is it just me? They always seem to go for surprisingly strong money.

 

The original comparison to non-key Supes/Bats run really does seem apt. Those books do seem like an excellent deal compared to a lot of things.

[MrBedrock]

Good post but this one statement below caught my eye about there being 20 Marvel Mystery comics that would cost more than $100K Did you mean $10k?

 

Of those fifty odd books I only ever had to shell out six-figures for five. If I were putting the run together now that number would probably be around twenty.

You are right. And I went back and edited it.

[MrBedrock]

The market on low/mid grade Timely drive me crazy, though. Is it just me? They always seem to go for surprisingly strong money.

 

You are absolutely correct. There is strong demand for any and all of the mainline superhero Timely titles. And because there are so few of them available in any grade the price splits between good and very fine really need to be compressed. As opposed to most silver age where there are so many copies available that the demand is only felt in the uppermost grade ranges. As Diego Grande pointed out earlier, a price average would probably provide some comparative info. But I do think comparing top versus top is a valid test of desirability for each book.

[adamstrange]

But I do think comparing top versus top is a valid test of desirability for each book.

Another interesting comparison would be the total value of all copies of an issue. That might be even more embarrassingly in favor of SA.

[ciorac]

I just had a thought. Given the relative disparity between high grade copies and low grade copies in GA, SA, and especially BA comics, wouldn't it be valuable to have some sort of "all grades average"?

 

In other words, there are many books in the SA and BA that are worth thousands in 9.6 or 9.8 but barely sell for $30 in 6.0 (think Amazing Spiderman 69, for example). If you could somehow average that disparity across all grades, then it might be a better comparison. I agree that supply and demand are the primary considerations and that the number of SA collectors far exceeds the number of GA collectors. But it seems like there is more to it than just what the highest graded copies are doing. It could be there is a perceptual ceiling that all comics have for value and we're seeing similar prices between GA and SA due to that.

 

If you took an average across all grades I think relative value across all eras would be clearer.

 

Great post!!!

 

I usually stay out of these pricing disucssion because they make me queasy. But Diego nailed it here. SA is only valuable for non-key isuues in high grade. The rest is compost. GA, for the most part, has at least some value in all grades.

[adamstrange]

As opposed to most silver age where there are so many copies available that the demand is only felt in the uppermost grade ranges.

I think the view of the expense of GA is due to the fact that it is conventional wisdom that GA is more expensive (which was true for a long time) and because a grade by grade comparison at the high end will usually, even now, show the GA issue being more expensive. Essentially, the evidence that people are looking at confirms conventional wisdom because they compare top copies.

 

The dramatic rise in Marvel prices in the high grades, primarily I think due to CGC grading, has not yet been fully rationalized vis a vie GA by enough people to result in new conventional wisdom. This does not mean that GA should be more expensive or that SA should be less. Demand and supply determine prices and there is a great deal of love for the SA by those who wish to collect comics.

[MrBedrock]

SA is only valuable for non-key isuues in high grade. The rest is compost. GA, for the most part, has at least some value in all grades.

Despite the huge supply of lower grade silver there is a price point at which all of it will sell. And for titles like FF, Spidey and X-Men that price point is fairly significant. So to call it compost isn't really accurate. Is it possible that the trends identified by comparing the top grade books could lead us to the conclusion that maybe lower grade GA is overvalued in relation to all books?

[MrBedrock]

As opposed to most silver age where there are so many copies available that the demand is only felt in the uppermost grade ranges.

I think the view of the expense of GA is due to the fact that it is conventional wisdom that GA is more expensive (which was true for a long time) and because a grade by grade comparison at the high end will usually, even now, show the GA issue being more expensive. Essentially, the evidence that people are looking at confirms conventional wisdom because they compare top copies.

 

I agree that people think golden age is expensive. I hope prices are not being driven simply because people think golden age should be expensive, but I do think that is the case in some respects. But closer inspection reveals that the conventional wisdom doesn't hold true most of the time. There aren't many comics in the way of silver age that are unsellable, even in low grade. There are large swaths of golden age that are. Westerns, late Lev Gleasons, many reprint books from the 40s and 50s, chunks of Dells. Finding a price point at which these are viable sellers can be very difficult.

[Ted Knight]

SA is only valuable for non-key isuues in high grade. The rest is compost. GA, for the most part, has at least some value in all grades.

Despite the huge supply of lower grade silver there is a price point at which all of it will sell. And for titles like FF, Spidey and X-Men that price point is fairly significant. So to call it compost isn't really accurate. Is it possible that the trends identified by comparing the top grade books could lead us to the conclusion that maybe lower grade GA is overvalued in relation to all books?

 

Good lord, I really hope not. I think one of the really disturbing trends of the last ten years has been the increase in valuation of condition over content. If you think that Night Nurse #1 in ultra high grade is worth more than a high-grade Marvel Mystery or EC, then there is something wrong with the way we are thinking about comics. Condition is a relatively superficial consideration to the actual importance / relevance / quality of a given book, imho. Clearly, demand will always be highest for best copies of something but I think it's a dangerous speculative cycle to value only 9.8s and 9.6s and devalue lower grades of comparatively rare and scarce comics.

 

Isn't this the same thing that caused the baseball card market to collapse?

 

But if you're correct, then I like my prospects for the future of my collection. (thumbs u

[ciorac]

SA is only valuable for non-key isuues in high grade. The rest is compost. GA, for the most part, has at least some value in all grades.

Despite the huge supply of lower grade silver there is a price point at which all of it will sell. And for titles like FF, Spidey and X-Men that price point is fairly significant. So to call it compost isn't really accurate. Is it possible that the trends identified by comparing the top grade books could lead us to the conclusion that maybe lower grade GA is overvalued in relation to all books?

 

It is compost. When a $15 book in low grade sells for five figures in ultra high grade, the $15 book is compost.

 

There are many examples of this in SA, damn few in GA. That's the point I'm trying to make. A decent lower grade mid run GA book still runs you $100 - $500. This is not true of 90% of the SA

[MrBedrock]

SA is only valuable for non-key isuues in high grade. The rest is compost. GA, for the most part, has at least some value in all grades.

Despite the huge supply of lower grade silver there is a price point at which all of it will sell. And for titles like FF, Spidey and X-Men that price point is fairly significant. So to call it compost isn't really accurate. Is it possible that the trends identified by comparing the top grade books could lead us to the conclusion that maybe lower grade GA is overvalued in relation to all books?

 

Good lord, I really hope not. I think one of the really disturbing trends of the last ten years has been the increase in valuation of condition over content. If you think that Night Nurse #1 in ultra high grade is worth more than a high-grade Marvel Mystery or EC, then there is something wrong with the way we are thinking about comics. Condition is a relatively superficial consideration to the actual importance / relevance / quality of a given book, imho. Clearly, demand will always be highest for best copies of something but I think it's a dangerous speculative cycle to value only 9.8s and 9.6s and devalue lower grades of comparatively rare and scarce comics.

 

Isn't this the same thing that caused the baseball card market to collapse?

 

But if you're correct, then I like my prospects for the future of my collection. (thumbs u

I agree totally that extreme cases like Night Nurse are in no way the norm. But I do think it is possible that we have reached a point where mainline silver age Marvels are the price standard by which all comics are compared. The standard used to be golden age DCs. Much to mmehdy's consternation that train may have passed the station.

[ciorac]

As opposed to most silver age where there are so many copies available that the demand is only felt in the uppermost grade ranges.

I think the view of the expense of GA is due to the fact that it is conventional wisdom that GA is more expensive (which was true for a long time) and because a grade by grade comparison at the high end will usually, even now, show the GA issue being more expensive. Essentially, the evidence that people are looking at confirms conventional wisdom because they compare top copies.

 

I agree that people think golden age is expensive. I hope prices are not being driven simply because people think golden age should be expensive, but I do think that is the case in some respects. But closer inspection reveals that the conventional wisdom doesn't hold true most of the time. There aren't many comics in the way of silver age that are unsellable, even in low grade. There are large swaths of golden age that are. Westerns, late Lev Gleasons, many reprint books from the 40s and 50s, chunks of Dells. Finding a price point at which these are viable sellers can be very difficult.

 

Compare them to the equal counterparts of the SA and you will find similar results.