May I ask a question?

[Krusty007]

Hello Everyone!

 

I would like to ask a question. I know that it could be obvious for experienced collectors, but it seems that early Golden Age Batman and Superman are undervalued?

 

When I look at only the census data, these books are surprisingly scarce. Sometimes a hundred at the max...while Silver Age show by the hundreds and usually by the thoudands!

 

However, Batman and Superman Golden Age could be bought for a very low price compared to their Silver Age counter parts.

 

What does that mean? That Golden Age people are outnumbered by the Silver Age generation thus creating a smaller demand?

 

Thank you for your input.

 

Best

Dominic

[comicdonna]

Well, I only collect Action Comics but, I can't imaging SA sells for more than GA grade for grade. I could be wrong though.

[thehumantorch]

Could you give us a specific example Dominic?

 

Comparing a Key SA book to a mid-run GA book or a low grade GA book to a

top of census SA book could certainly make SA books look expensive.

[Ted Knight]

Hello Everyone!

 

I would like to ask a question. I know that it could be obvious for experienced collectors, but it seems that early Golden Age Batman and Superman are undervalued?

 

When I look at only the census data, these books are surprisingly scarce. Sometimes a hundred at the max...while Silver Age show by the hundreds and usually by the thoudands!

 

However, Batman and Superman Golden Age could be bought for a very low price compared to their Silver Age counter parts.

 

What does that mean? That Golden Age people are outnumbered by the Silver Age generation thus creating a smaller demand?

 

Thank you for your input.

 

Best

Dominic

 

I actually think there are a lot of great values in the GA market but not Superman and Batman. Those two have been hot as can be for many years now in terms of their increase in value. Not sure how you could possibly think that GA Superman comics are cheaper than Silver Age anything. Unless your talking about mid-run Detective and Action between issue 70 and 230 or so. In which case, who cares? That's a nasty part of both runs. Even for people that are actually trying to collect the whole series (of which there are relatively few, it's a ball breaker).

 

And now, all Detective and Action collectors will be coming with torches.

 

But come on, guys, all I did was say what everyone already knows but won't admit. It's a lousy run of comics.

[comicdonna]

Hello Everyone!

 

I would like to ask a question. I know that it could be obvious for experienced collectors, but it seems that early Golden Age Batman and Superman are undervalued?

 

When I look at only the census data, these books are surprisingly scarce. Sometimes a hundred at the max...while Silver Age show by the hundreds and usually by the thoudands!

 

However, Batman and Superman Golden Age could be bought for a very low price compared to their Silver Age counter parts.

 

What does that mean? That Golden Age people are outnumbered by the Silver Age generation thus creating a smaller demand?

 

Thank you for your input.

 

Best

Dominic

 

I actually think there are a lot of great values in the GA market but not Superman and Batman. Those two have been hot as can be for many years now in terms of their increase in value. Not sure how you could possibly think that GA Superman comics are cheaper than Silver Age anything. Unless your talking about mid-run Detective and Action between issue 70 and 230 or so. In which case, who cares? That's a nasty part of both runs. Even for people that are actually trying to collect the whole series (of which there are relatively few, it's a ball breaker).

 

And now, all Detective and Action collectors will be coming with torches.

 

But come on, guys, all I did was say what everyone already knows but won't admit. It's a lousy run of comics.

I have a complete Action run from #71 to #101 except for #94 There's some nice covers in there.

[adamstrange]

Here's a Spidey 13 in 9.4. Per the census there are 14 in 9.4 and 6 higher. It sold for $10,755.00. linky

 

How about Spidey 2 in 9.6 (1 of 4) that went for $65,725.00 linky

 

You can find many more examples of expensive SA from both Marvels and DCs -- here's the recent results for Twin Cities: linky

 

Depending on how you want to do the comparison, it is not unusual for GA to be similar or cheaper when compared to SA.

 

For Superman 1 there are only 31 copies total graded. linky For Amaz Fantasy 15 there are 34 copies that are 8.0 and higher. The 8.0 is the Church Superman 1 which would sell for more than 9.6 AF 15 but after that many of those top 34 AF15s would probably sell for similar amounts to the Superman's. A fine copy of AF15 just sold for $17k and there are 143 other copies of equal or higher grade.

 

Here's a JIM 85 in 8.5 (1 of 8 with 17 higher) that went for $3,107.00. linky

 

How many GA books can you have 25 copies 8.5 or higher in grade and expect the 8.5s to sell for $3k like the JIM 85?

 

I think the original poster is asking a fair question. My view is that SA is not much, if any cheaper, and that both demand and supply are far greater.

[Ted Knight]

Schooled by Mr. Strange, once again. Fair enough. But if you compare mid and lower grades, isn't it a different story? How many SA 5.0 and 6.0 or lower compare to GA books in similar condition. The explosion of high grade demand in the last 10 years has definitely made certain books more comparable between SA and GA. But I think it's a different story when it comes to lower grades. For which, there is still significant demand in GA (due to the fact that there are so few copies available in any grade).

[adamstrange]

When there are so many high grade copies there's no reason for the SA collector to have to "settle" for a copy in mid or low grade like many do in the GA. That's why I think the best comparison is looking at the top "x" number of copies of a SA issue and compare them to the top "x" copies of a GA issue.

 

A Superman 1 in 6.0 is quite a treasure when compared to an AF15 in 6.0. But if there were a 144 or more copies of Superman in 6.0 and higher would they sell for $17k in 6.0? I'm not sure they would and even the fact that I'm not sure of it is a sign to me of how expensive SA comics are.

 

Turn it around the other way. What if the population of AF15s looked more like population of Superman 1. How much would they go for? Similar in price to the Superman 1?

[MrBedrock]

Here's a Spidey 13 in 9.4. Per the census there are 14 in 9.4 and 6 higher. It sold for $10,755.00. linky

 

How about Spidey 2 in 9.6 (1 of 4) that went for $65,725.00 linky

 

You can find many more examples of expensive SA from both Marvels and DCs -- here's the recent results for Twin Cities: linky

 

Depending on how you want to do the comparison, it is not unusual for GA to be similar or cheaper when compared to SA.

 

For Superman 1 there are only 31 copies total graded. linky For Amaz Fantasy 15 there are 34 copies that are 8.0 and higher. The 8.0 is the Church Superman 1 which would sell for more than 9.6 AF 15 but after that many of those top 34 AF15s would probably sell for similar amounts to the Superman's. A fine copy of AF15 just sold for $17k and there are 143 other copies of equal or higher grade.

 

Here's a JIM 85 in 8.5 (1 of 8 with 17 higher) that went for $3,107.00. linky

 

How many GA books can you have 25 copies 8.5 or higher in grade and expect the 8.5s to sell for $3k like the JIM 85?

 

I think the original poster is asking a fair question. My view is that SA is not much, if any cheaper, and that both demand and supply are far greater.

This is a great post. If you dig even deeper you will find that, indeed, silver age in high grade is more expensive than comparable golden age.

Compare the premiere golden age character - Superman - to the premiere silver age character - Spider-man...

Superman 3 has 1 9.0, 5 8.5s, and 2 8.0s - eight total in 8.0 or better.

Amazing Spider-man 3 has 1 9.8, 3 9.6s, 8 9.4s, and 13 9.2s - 25 total in 9.2 or better.

The most recent sale on an 8.5 Superman 3 is $14000 in Aug 2010. A comparable Spidey 3 by census would be a 9.4. The most recent sale was the Twin City at over $22000. Another 9.4 sold for $17000 in 2005! Where the prices of these two books diverge is in lower grades. A complete low grade Superman 3 will can be had for prices above $500 while a comparable Spidey 3 will cost less than half of that.

 

The second highest Superman 14 (9.0) sold for $17,000 in 2007. I'm sure it would sell for considerably more today. But even if it sold for double that amount consider that there are fourteen copies of Spider-man 14 in 9.6, one of which sold last year for $44,000. The Pacific Coast copy sold in 2007...for $37,500!

 

I'd love to collect some Silver Age books but the darn things are just too expensive. I'll stick to Timelys.

[tth2]

Here's a Spidey 13 in 9.4. Per the census there are 14 in 9.4 and 6 higher. It sold for $10,755.00. linky

 

How about Spidey 2 in 9.6 (1 of 4) that went for $65,725.00 linky

 

You can find many more examples of expensive SA from both Marvels and DCs -- here's the recent results for Twin Cities: linky

 

Depending on how you want to do the comparison, it is not unusual for GA to be similar or cheaper when compared to SA.

 

For Superman 1 there are only 31 copies total graded. linky For Amaz Fantasy 15 there are 34 copies that are 8.0 and higher. The 8.0 is the Church Superman 1 which would sell for more than 9.6 AF 15 but after that many of those top 34 AF15s would probably sell for similar amounts to the Superman's. A fine copy of AF15 just sold for $17k and there are 143 other copies of equal or higher grade.

 

Here's a JIM 85 in 8.5 (1 of 8 with 17 higher) that went for $3,107.00. linky

 

How many GA books can you have 25 copies 8.5 or higher in grade and expect the 8.5s to sell for $3k like the JIM 85?

 

I think the original poster is asking a fair question. My view is that SA is not much, if any cheaper, and that both demand and supply are far greater.

Great analysis!

 

I think once you get away from the GA mega-keys, and specific niche areas like patriotic covers or WW II covers, there is just not the same level of emotional attachment to GA titles that you find among SA collectors.

[adamstrange]

Those are better examples, Mr B. (thumbs u

 

I do think the comparisons are a bit difficult since Batman and Superman appeared in both an anthology title that they headlined (Detective and Action, respectively) as well as in their own eponymous title. That tends to dilute the market demand somewhat but not so much that it takes away from the essential comparison we're trying to do.

 

the darn things are just too expensive. I'll stick to Timelys.

Now those are some 'spensive funny books!

[Krusty007]

Could you give us a specific example Dominic?

 

Comparing a Key SA book to a mid-run GA book or a low grade GA book to a

top of census SA book could certainly make SA books look expensive.

 

Sure (and it was mentioned by member Mr. Bedrock in the post).

 

I was shopping for an early Superman and saw Superman #3 cover (I am a ''cover buyer'' a lot). Wow, very nice!

 

Then I digged into the population of early Spidey and I was amazed to see that early Spidey (AS not AF) commanded almost the same high price than early Superman. The only big difference was the population of Spidey vs Superman.

 

I was not quite understanding why Spidey would command such prices when in fact the population was bigger (double or more) Superman's one.

 

Thank you to everyone for your input, it is really appreciated!

 

Dominic

[tth2]

I was not quite understanding why Spidey would command such prices when in fact the population was bigger (double or more) Superman's one.

As others here have pointed out, the population of ASM #3 collectors is way more than double that of Superman #3 collectors, so greater demand more than makes up for the greater supply.

 

Plus, when it comes to ultra-high grade copies, there are many more ASM collectors who competitively collect, whether in the Registry or just among their BSD buddies, so the multiples they`re willing to pay for top census copies significantly exceeds the multiples that most GA collectors will pay.

[Krusty007]

Yeah, I got it!

[MrBedrock]

Those are better examples, Mr B. (thumbs u

 

I do think the comparisons are a bit difficult since Batman and Superman appeared in both an anthology title that they headlined (Detective and Action, respectively) as well as in their own eponymous title. That tends to dilute the market demand somewhat but not so much that it takes away from the essential comparison we're trying to do.

 

the darn things are just too expensive. I'll stick to Timelys.

Now those are some 'spensive funny books!

You would think, but check this...Marvel Mystery 4 versus Avengers 4...both books that are considered semi-keys. Marvel 4 has the first Sub-mariner cover and one of the earliest depictions of Nazi Germany as an enemy. Avengers 4 with the return of Captain America to comics. The highest graded Avengers 4 is 9.6. There are seven of them. One sold late last year for over $60,000 and one sold recently for over $90,000! The second highest is 9.4. There are 25 of them. They regularly sell for over $20,000 with one bringing $30,000 in the last few months.

The highest graded Marvel 4 is a 9.0. There is one copy. It sold a few years ago for $50,000. (At the time it seemed a ridiculous amount, but I manned up because I really wanted it.) The second highest is a 7.5. There is also only one copy. I sold that one for just under $20,000 late in 2010. To be fair, the Church copy would bring a large price if it were ever to come up for sale (assuming it grades higher than 9.0). But a large price for Marvel 4 would probably be in the $100,000 range which isn't out of line in comparison to what the 9.6 Avengers 4 have been going for. And imagine what price a 9.8 Avengers would generate.

[adamstrange]

Those are better examples, Mr B. (thumbs u

 

I do think the comparisons are a bit difficult since Batman and Superman appeared in both an anthology title that they headlined (Detective and Action, respectively) as well as in their own eponymous title. That tends to dilute the market demand somewhat but not so much that it takes away from the essential comparison we're trying to do.

 

the darn things are just too expensive. I'll stick to Timelys.

Now those are some 'spensive funny books!

You would think, but check this...Marvel Mystery 4 versus Avengers 4...both books that are considered semi-keys. Marvel 4 has the first Sub-mariner cover and one of the earliest depictions of Nazi Germany as an enemy. Avengers 4 with the return of Captain America to comics. The highest graded Avengers 4 is 9.6. There are seven of them. One sold late last year for over $60,000 and one sold recently for over $90,000! The second highest is 9.4. There are 25 of them. They regularly sell for over $20,000 with one bringing $30,000 in the last few months.

The highest graded Marvel 4 is a 9.0. There is one copy. It sold a few years ago for $50,000. (At the time it seemed a ridiculous amount, but I manned up because I really wanted it.) The second highest is a 7.5. There is also only one copy. I sold that one for just under $20,000 late in 2010. To be fair, the Church copy would bring a large price if it were ever to come up for sale (assuming it grades higher than 9.0). But a large price for Marvel 4 would probably be in the $100,000 range which isn't out of line in comparison to what the 9.6 Avengers 4 have been going for. And imagine what price a 9.8 Avengers would generate.

 

Avengers 4 is the SA intro of Captain America so we could compare it to Captain America #1. GA Cap would be more expensive for the upper grades but high demand even with the large volume of 9.4s and 9.6s still results in a very expensive SA comic.

[MrBedrock]

I was not quite understanding why Spidey would command such prices when in fact the population was bigger (double or more) Superman's one.

As others here have pointed out, the population of ASM #3 collectors is way more than double that of Superman #3 collectors, so greater demand more than makes up for the greater supply.

Tim, I agree with you completely that there are more collectors of Spider-Man. But I find it interesting the reaction that casual fans have to early Superman comics. Every issue of Superman through about number 30 will get a significant amount of ohs and ahs from folks at conventions and especially in the shop. The corresponding issues of Spidey, other than AF 15 and 1 do not . And those folks always are under the assumption that Superman comics are more expensive simply because of the age and the aura that surrounds them. Obviously most casual fans are not collectors nor do they have any intention to purchase either of those back issues. But of the small percentage who do who already collect Spideys, if I lay out the same price comparisons for them and show them how undervalued golden age Superman is to silver age Spider-Man they, almost to a person, decide to add at least a few GA books to their collections. I think at some point the differences in price will become pronounced enough that the price gaps will have to be filled. Either golden age will pick up, or silver age will come back to earth.

[tth2]

Marvel Mystery 4 versus Avengers 4...both books that are considered semi-keys.

Has Avengers 4 been considered a semi-key any time since the early 1980s? It`s been a pretty major SA key for quite a while now, and given the consistently high demand for it for the last couple of decades, I think it`s pretty much a mega-key now.

[MrBedrock]

Those are better examples, Mr B. (thumbs u

 

I do think the comparisons are a bit difficult since Batman and Superman appeared in both an anthology title that they headlined (Detective and Action, respectively) as well as in their own eponymous title. That tends to dilute the market demand somewhat but not so much that it takes away from the essential comparison we're trying to do.

 

the darn things are just too expensive. I'll stick to Timelys.

Now those are some 'spensive funny books!

You would think, but check this...Marvel Mystery 4 versus Avengers 4...both books that are considered semi-keys. Marvel 4 has the first Sub-mariner cover and one of the earliest depictions of Nazi Germany as an enemy. Avengers 4 with the return of Captain America to comics. The highest graded Avengers 4 is 9.6. There are seven of them. One sold late last year for over $60,000 and one sold recently for over $90,000! The second highest is 9.4. There are 25 of them. They regularly sell for over $20,000 with one bringing $30,000 in the last few months.

The highest graded Marvel 4 is a 9.0. There is one copy. It sold a few years ago for $50,000. (At the time it seemed a ridiculous amount, but I manned up because I really wanted it.) The second highest is a 7.5. There is also only one copy. I sold that one for just under $20,000 late in 2010. To be fair, the Church copy would bring a large price if it were ever to come up for sale (assuming it grades higher than 9.0). But a large price for Marvel 4 would probably be in the $100,000 range which isn't out of line in comparison to what the 9.6 Avengers 4 have been going for. And imagine what price a 9.8 Avengers would generate.

 

Avengers 4 is the SA intro of Captain America so we could compare it to Captain America #1. GA Cap would be more expensive for the upper grades but high demand even with the large volume of 9.4s and 9.6s still results in a very expensive SA comic.

I was waiting for someone to make this comparison.

 

Avengers 4 is the reintro of Cap into silver age continuity. But the Cap character appeared twice before in the silver age (Sgt. Fury 13 and Strange Tales 114). As such it can't be treated as a full on first appearance big key. And until the last few years it was not. The movie hype has affected Avengers 4 to such a degree that it has been propelled into full-blown first tier silver age key territory. But I'd still argue that it can't be compared directly with Captain America 1. That is a huge key and should really be compared directly with something like Fantastic Four #1. You could maybe make the comparison of Avengers 4 and Captain America 3, in which case Avengers 4 blows it out of the water in just about every comparison.

[tth2]

I was not quite understanding why Spidey would command such prices when in fact the population was bigger (double or more) Superman's one.

As others here have pointed out, the population of ASM #3 collectors is way more than double that of Superman #3 collectors, so greater demand more than makes up for the greater supply.

Tim, I agree with you completely that there are more collectors of Spider-Man. But I find it interesting the reaction that casual fans have to early Superman comics. Every issue of Superman through about number 30 will get a significant amount of ohs and ahs from folks at conventions and especially in the shop. The corresponding issues of Spidey, other than AF 15 and 1 do not . And those folks always are under the assumption that Superman comics are more expensive simply because of the age and the aura that surrounds them. Obviously most casual fans are not collectors nor do they have any intention to purchase either of those back issues. But of the small percentage who do who already collect Spideys, if I lay out the same price comparisons for them and show them how undervalued golden age Superman is to silver age Spider-Man they, almost to a person, decide to add at least a few GA books to their collections. I think at some point the differences in price will become pronounced enough that the price gaps will have to be filled. Either golden age will pick up, or silver age will come back to earth.

Interesting, and I take your point.

 

I wonder if some of the greater interest in the Supermans is simply that they have more mystique because the casual fans know that they`re "really old" and not commonly seen, whereas the Spidermans are considered contemporary (even though in fact they`re 50 years old versus 70 years old for the Supermans) and not quite as mysterious.

 

I`ve always believed that the GA-SA price relationship is like an accordion, and when prices compress then it`s inevitable that either GA prices will move back up or SA prices will fall back, so I agree with your conclusion. Historically, because comic prices have trended up, when there has been compression, the result has been that GA prices move up rather than SA prices fall back.

 

There is a line of thought among some SA collectors, however, that "it`s different this time" and SA will continue to overtake GA prices because GA has become less relevant except for the keys. But when you lay out the valuations alongside each other, the GA books do seem very cheap and it`s not surprising that people start moving into the relative bargain prices offered by GA.