CBCA Sponsors Scientific Testing on the Effects of Pressing

[DrWatson]

Have the results been posted yet or is this still just a circlejerk?

Circlejerk of waffle.

[comicdonna]

It has been depressing for me to read this thread and see how people are letting their emotional position on pressing blind them to the value of starting to collect objective data. The CBCA took the initiative to do a limitted pilot study on a topic of great interest to the hobby, and stated it had limitations and was just a pilot study, but instead of being reinforced for their efforts, they have been chided for not starting with the ultimate experiment. I have news for you. No sane scientist ever starts with the ultimate experiment. They do just what the CBCA is doing. They perform limited pilot studies to see if there might be anything worth pursuing. If there is, then they go another step. And even if they like their findings, they try and replicate them. I taught experimental design and analysis, and probablility and statistics, to doctoral students for most of my academic career, and I routinely published peer reviewed studies in leading journals. I was even accepted as an expert witness in statistics in Federal Court on several occassions. I mention this just to support my claim that they are starting off just fine. If the results are interesting, and if they want to pursue testing, I would be happy to assist. Power planning would let you determine the size of the sample, and a design could be established that had a minimum of confounding variables. But the first step is alays to do a very limited pilot study and try to determine if there is anything worth pursuing.

 

I think you helping them with a design would be an excellent idea. Maybe even reviewing the data they have already collected and seeing if the results show any meaningful trends before they put them out for public consumption. You know as well as I do that preliminary results with a limited sample size do not usually give results that are meant for public consumption in an emotional and irrational argument. Someone will leap on these results as the definitive answer in the argument when, in reality, they are just preliminary and likely to change with a larger sample size.

 

We would very much appreciate assistance from both of you. (thumbs u

Yep! (thumbs u

[drbanner]

And if something can't be changed, or is past changing, it is illogical to continue to get upset about it... it's like losing sleep every night over all of the nitrate-based silent films that have been lost.

No!!

 

And that's what I mean by bad-businessification-- the constant anguish and gnashing and accusations and bitterness over things that can't possibly be changed at this point is terrible for any hobby-- it drives people away, it makes those collectors who stay in the hobby paranoid and unhappy, and it makes dealers like myself conclude that maybe, after 27 years, the hobby doesn't contain enough sanity to make it a viable business model anymore.

So true...that's why I really don't worry about it, it's out there and you might as well assume every book you spend big $$ is pressed and I personally really don't care. When I espoused that view here back "in the day", I was yelled at and told I really did care but just didn't want to admit it, or maybe it was that I should care...but that board member is no longer allowed to participate in these boards so it's water under the bridge.

 

I do feel bad for those around here that get uptight about it and do understand why, but it's just a hobby for me, and a fun one at that.

[whisp]

[linmoth]

Susan has been pressing books for years. I can only assume the she did the work for your testing. Wouldn't it be easier to take a sampling of her customer base to see if there were any adverse affects over the years that her clients owned the books.

 

Seems to me that would give you give you better statistical info than 2 books.

 

Jmho

 

Tom

[comicdonna]

Susan is a great person but, I don't believe she will be contacting all of her customers asking how their books are holding up.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

It has been depressing for me to read this thread and see how people are letting their emotional position on pressing blind them to the value of starting to collect objective data. The CBCA took the initiative to do a limitted pilot study on a topic of great interest to the hobby, and stated it had limitations and was just a pilot study, but instead of being reinforced for their efforts, they have been chided for not starting with the ultimate experiment. I have news for you. No sane scientist ever starts with the ultimate experiment. They do just what the CBCA is doing. They perform limited pilot studies to see if there might be anything worth pursuing. If there is, then they go another step. And even if they like their findings, they try and replicate them. I taught experimental design and analysis, and probablility and statistics, to doctoral students for most of my academic career, and I routinely published peer reviewed studies in leading journals. I was even accepted as an expert witness in statistics in Federal Court on several occassions. I mention this just to support my claim that they are starting off just fine. If the results are interesting, and if they want to pursue testing, I would be happy to assist. Power planning would let you determine the size of the sample, and a design could be established that had a minimum of confounding variables. But the first step is alays to do a very limited pilot study and try to determine if there is anything worth pursuing.

as well..

[linmoth]

Why not? What would it hurt to send out a survey, take all of the data and formulate an opinion. I would think that a book that was pressed 20 years ago would be a better canidate for info than 2 books pressed yesterday.

 

If the owners saw some deterioration to the book I'm sure they would be more than happy to speak up. In the same sense someone who noticed no adverse affects would also.

 

If you have a database of possible canidates to sample why not use them?

 

I am neither pro or con about pressing just trying to look at the premis laid out and look at it logically so I can make some sense of it.

 

If you want to examine the paper fibres how are you going to determine the long term affects if there are any changes.

 

Just my opinion!

[comicdonna]

All opinions are certainly welcome, and will be considered. (thumbs u

[DarkKnightReturns]

Weren't a lot of the Mile Highs pressed ? How are these ones now ?

[oakman29]

It has been depressing for me to read this thread and see how people are letting their emotional position on pressing blind them to the value of starting to collect objective data. The CBCA took the initiative to do a limitted pilot study on a topic of great interest to the hobby, and stated it had limitations and was just a pilot study, but instead of being reinforced for their efforts, they have been chided for not starting with the ultimate experiment. I have news for you. No sane scientist ever starts with the ultimate experiment. They do just what the CBCA is doing. They perform limited pilot studies to see if there might be anything worth pursuing. If there is, then they go another step. And even if they like their findings, they try and replicate them. I taught experimental design and analysis, and probablility and statistics, to doctoral students for most of my academic career, and I routinely published peer reviewed studies in leading journals. I was even accepted as an expert witness in statistics in Federal Court on several occassions. I mention this just to support my claim that they are starting off just fine. If the results are interesting, and if they want to pursue testing, I would be happy to assist. Power planning would let you determine the size of the sample, and a design could be established that had a minimum of confounding variables. But the first step is alays to do a very limited pilot study and try to determine if there is anything worth pursuing.

 

Thank you Rich!

 

+1

+2 It's unbelievable to see some of these posts,why so negative? It's all for the well being of our hobby. (thumbs u

[prestidigitator-migration]

Or, given that future generations bedecked in their shiny silver suits may be admiring their collections on other planets or in outer space, maybe we should book time aboard the International Space Station now to study the effects of Zero-G on comic books? Speaking of the future, is there a future for the cryogenic preservation of comics? Suspended animation? And has anyone talked to the superstring guys? Maybe the vibrations which create reality itself could be tweaked in such a way as to render comic books impervious to all known forms of aging and degeneration.

 

Ah, I see you are not familiar with The Q Collection. It's a collection of comics that have been rendered impervious to all known forms of aging and degeneration by being laminated (and stored in wooden boxes). This collection will then be shot into space for the Aliens to receive (since the Library of Congress has declined).

 

Seriously. http://q-comics.com/index.htm

[Tsimanga]

Or, given that future generations bedecked in their shiny silver suits may be admiring their collections on other planets or in outer space, maybe we should book time aboard the International Space Station now to study the effects of Zero-G on comic books? Speaking of the future, is there a future for the cryogenic preservation of comics? Suspended animation? And has anyone talked to the superstring guys? Maybe the vibrations which create reality itself could be tweaked in such a way as to render comic books impervious to all known forms of aging and degeneration.

 

Ah, I see you are not familiar with The Q Collection. It's a collection of comics that have been rendered impervious to all known forms of aging and degeneration by being laminated (and stored in wooden boxes). This collection will then be shot into space for the Aliens to receive (since the Library of Congress has declined).

 

Seriously. http://q-comics.com/index.htm

 

They should have just done a few full runs... how frustrating will it be for someone to read X-men #1 and want to read more, or Batman #171 and not read the 170 issues before it of after it... they could have at least added some complete storylines for future generations to enjoy...Bah humbug!

[Mac Man]

Or, given that future generations bedecked in their shiny silver suits may be admiring their collections on other planets or in outer space, maybe we should book time aboard the International Space Station now to study the effects of Zero-G on comic books? Speaking of the future, is there a future for the cryogenic preservation of comics? Suspended animation? And has anyone talked to the superstring guys? Maybe the vibrations which create reality itself could be tweaked in such a way as to render comic books impervious to all known forms of aging and degeneration.

 

Ah, I see you are not familiar with The Q Collection. It's a collection of comics that have been rendered impervious to all known forms of aging and degeneration by being laminated (and stored in wooden boxes). This collection will then be shot into space for the Aliens to receive (since the Library of Congress has declined).

 

Seriously. http://q-comics.com/index.htm

 

I'm curious where they acquired their "census" number on the # of known copies to exist for certain raw issues.

[PovertyRow]

Why not? What would it hurt to send out a survey, take all of the data and formulate an opinion. I would think that a book that was pressed 20 years ago would be a better canidate for info than 2 books pressed yesterday.

 

A book pressed 20 years ago is going to be subject to unknown variables. Storage temperature, humidity, airborne acids and chemicals etc. Not to mention similar variables that impacted the book before it was pressed.

 

I do agree, though, that one half of two books will prove nothing. If it shows some form of negative impact will a denouncement of pressing be the result? If it shows no degradation will an approval of restoration result? What exactly will happen? And to what end?

 

This test is of no value save publicity. Why spend the money to do it? Publicize the idea and seek donations and also advice. Even if it takes a few years. Get a truly valid study going.

 

[comicwiz]

How's this for study idea for the naysayers?

 

Stick one of your hands under a heated press rather than your comic. Do not let the smell of bacon tempt you to remove your hand sooner than the time required for best results.

 

After removing your hand, compare its appearance with the other kept by your side during the whole agonizing experience, and the one that's toasting to George Costanza as you look over the results and reminisce about a failed hand modeling career.

[fantastic_four]

Susan is a great person but, I don't believe she will be contacting all of her customers asking how their books are holding up.

 

Nor would they be able to tell her anything useful--there is NOTHING we can see with our eyes to describe about a well-done press no matter how many years pass. Conservators have been doing it to pulp long before the comics market started.

[Theagenes]

This test is of no value save publicity. Why spend the money to do it? Publicize the idea and seek donations and also advice. Even if it takes a few years. Get a truly valid study going.

 

Exactly. This has been in the talking stages for years. A number of people have looked into it but it never got past the "wish we could do this" phase. When the CBCA got into the game last fall and started seriously discussing doing something like this, we received a great deal of verbal support from people on all sides of the issue. But when it came time to mannup, as it were, and actually contribute funds, all we heard were crickets. You mention the money spent -- well the money for this test came almost entirely from donations by the CBCA board of directors own pockets.

 

So with our limited funds we decided to begin with this simple test to see if this was even feasible; to see what sort of unique structural problems comic books present; to try and identify good test candidates; etc. These are things that have been discussed and thought about before, but until you do it for real you don't really know what you're getting into. So with our own modest investment we've gotten the ball rolling, discovered some issues that will need to be worked out, and acquired some limited results that will have to be repeated and tested before any conclusions can be drawn.

 

Perhaps most importantly, we have (as you suggest) generated publicity and awareness of this project and we are demonstrating that we are serious about taking this beyond the talking stage and doing it for real. We are already seeing offers of assistance, not only with funding but also with technical expertise. Pov, I know how knowledgable you are on restoration and conservation and your expertise would be greatly needed and appreciated if you are willing pitch in.

 

You're absolutely right that these preliminary results will prove nothing, execpt perhaps that this kind of study can be done. You're right that those who are extremely passionate about this subject (on both sides) will no doubt spin the results and continue to argue about it ad nausem. But the data will still be there and they will show what they show; and rational individuals will still be able to make use of them. This study is not being done to prove that one side is right and the other is wrong; its purpose its to generate a better understanding of a process that has become an huge part of our hobby in a relatively short period of time.

 

Those of you who know me, know that I am fairly reasonable and rational. I am no idealogue. That goes for pressing as well. I not rabidly anti-pressing nor pro-pressing. I have had books pressed and I have sold pressed books, but on a very modest scale. If you know my background and what I do for a living, you know that my life and career are dedicated to the study of, the protection of, and the promotion of cultural resources. And make no mistake about it -- comic books are cultural resources as far as I'm concerned. Cultural resources have to be cared for, but they also have to be shared and enjoyed if they are to have any relevence -- it's all about finding that balance. If I thought that this study had any agenda other than adding to our knowledge of how to be better caretakers of the books, while still enjoying their aesthestic appeal, I would walk away in a heartbeat.

 

This subject has caused a great deal of strife in this particular online community over the last few years, but I think much of that is due to the lack of knowlegde of what pressing is and is not. My hope is that ultimately a larger study on the effects of pressing will eliminate or at least reduce that knowledge gap. As many have said, pressing is here to stay; if that's the case (and I think it probably is) then my hope is that this study or others like it will generate the knowledge needed to help insure that pressing is done in as archivally-safe a manner as possible. I can't imagine anyone would disagree with that. But finally my most sincere hope, as naive as it may be, is that with better understanding of this devisive issue, whatever the results may be, we will be able to put some of the arguments behind us and move on; and maybe, just maybe, get back to enjoying these books and hobby again.

[fantastic_four]

But finally my most sincere hope, as naive as it may be, is that with better understanding of this devisive issue, whatever the results may be, we will be able to put some of the arguments behind us and move on; and maybe, just maybe, get back to enjoying these books and hobby again.

 

Yea, I wish you were right too, but it's naive. The people who hate it hate it for different reasons than the pressing hurting the book--they're pissed about things like restoration in general, market manipulation and too-easy profits, or rising top-end Census numbers.

[Theagenes]

But finally my most sincere hope, as naive as it may be, is that with better understanding of this devisive issue, whatever the results may be, we will be able to put some of the arguments behind us and move on; and maybe, just maybe, get back to enjoying these books and hobby again.

 

Yea, I wish you were right too, but it's naive. The people who hate it hate it for different reasons than the pressing hurting the book--they're pissed about things like restoration in general, market manipulation and too-easy profits, or rising top-end Census numbers.

 

I know. I'm a hopeless optimist.