Does CGC have the moral responsiblity of keeping records of their work?

[RockMyAmadeus]

I'm guessing this thread was started based on the FF #4 CGC 9.6 from the other thread.

 

The book was owned by a person who didn't care about pressed/upgraded books, it was sold through me to another person who didn't care about pressed/upgraded books and it was auctioned off and bought by a 3rd person likely who doesn't care about pressed/upgraded books (I'm hypothesizing as I don't know who bought it ultimately but based on the people that would collect an FF #4 in high grade I assume the majority of them know about pressing and upgrading).

 

If the majority of people who would collect a book like that in that grade/price range don't care then who would care?

 

The people who would be looking to upgrade the book, that's who.

 

 

There is more than just one side to an economic model and for every person that wants a book that has not been upgraded, there will be another who does.

 

Ok,..the issue of pressing is never going to go away,..and frankly I don't give a dump whether a book is pressed or not,..what does get me infuriated is watching the same high grade books get pumped up bigger and bigger each year,...it's obscene that someone can buy a book for 25K and a month later sell it as a better book for 50k,...

 

...CGC started this circus and I feel they have a responsibility to the hobby to control it,....so why can't CGC books come with a statement of ownership?...like a title or a deed,...and when it gets sold the title changes hands and CGC gets updated of the sale,...call me crazy but I would like to know the history of a book I just paid thousands of dollars for,...is it fool proof?...no, but it's a start,...at least it would give buyers the advantage of deciding if they want to buy a high priced book based on it's history,...of decide not to because of it's lack of history,...

 

CGC did not start the circus. Hate the people who are paying those prices. The hobby has been the same since the first time a book worth a dime sold for a dollar. Throughout history people have ripped on other people who raise the bar with the prices they pay for comics.

 

$500 was crazy money for an AF #15 at one time but when the first one sold for $50,000 all of a sudden anyone that owned was for more than 10 years was a genius.

 

Outrageous prices form outrageous emotions, unfortunately. Both good and bad.

 

Comics are a relatively new hobby compared to coins, but it's the coin model that comics are built on. Grading, upgrading, auctions, etc. Comics are literally riding on the coat tails of coins.

 

Pretty sure it won't be long before there is a grading system that divides between 9.0/9.2/9.4 etc.

 

If anyone really wants to stop upgrades, just "mannup" (thank you Mitch Mhedy for the phrase) and buy the book before it gets upgraded.

 

Otherwise, it's a free market and an open game for everyone to play. That's the reality of it.

 

...think about when you buy a luxary used car,...most come with a complete history of service and repair,..would you buy a 50K used Mercedes without a log record?,..

 

Apples and oranges on so many different levels.

 

If there is a problem with a car it can kill people. Comics, not so much. 16 or 20 leaves of paper don't do as much damage as a 5000 lb projectile.

 

Comics are not generally status symbols, cars are.

 

Cars are multidimensional and layered, and a lot more expensive to repair than to just get a complete one. They are greater than the sum of their parts and much more difficult and expensive to repair than comics.

 

I don't want to get dragged into another debate on this. It's been hashed out ad naseum while you were gone.

 

 

The bottom line to me is that it's just simple economics in a hobby finding a balance with people trying to figure out where they fit in, in the grand scheme. Nothing more.

 

It's like reading a poor man's Book of Proverbs.

 

Pretty sure it won't be long before there is a grading system that divides between 9.0/9.2/9.4 etc.

 

If anyone really wants to stop upgrades, just "mannup" (thank you Mitch Mhedy for the phrase) and buy the book before it gets upgraded.

 

Someone's been paying attention to me.

[yecul]

What they should do is stamp the inside cover of each submitted book to make tracking easy and conclusive.

 

It's been discussed in detail on here. Most collectors don't want random markings on their expensive books.

 

[bronze_rules]

I was seriously befuddled as to how they could know any history beyond the current submitter, unless by some miracle, each re-crack and submitter would actually pass along a certificate of ownership. I would bet some major coin, that this would NEVER happen, and that is out of CGCs hands.

 

Possibly inserting the invisible serial number is another option (and I like the idea for other reasons, such as theft/insurance) but then you'd hear bloody murder as it's altering the comic (albeit in a somewhat invisible manner)-- and this is one case where the pressers and resto profiteers would actually side with the invisible stamp = desecration camps. In short, the likelihood of it happening would be the black swan CGC event of the century.

 

 

 

[Rocketeer]

An invisible serial number would go along way towards stopping the press and resub nonsense, but its certainly not in CGCs best interest to do this.

Then the question is oes a company have an obligation to the hobby or does it exist simply to wring out every last penny from its client base.

 

...Bingo,...and this has been discussed for as long as I can remember,..it's not done not because of a cost implement, but because CGC's obligation is to dealers and not collectors,..which to me throws the whole non partial argument right out the widow,...

[GACollectibles]

What they should do is stamp the inside cover of each submitted book to make tracking easy and conclusive.

 

Lojack.

[Rocketeer]

Or the question might be if a high enough percentage of their clientele couldn't care less about pressing, why should they?

 

..who's keeping score of who wants what?...maybe a high percentage of their cliet base doesn't care about micro trimming,...they just want the number in the corner,..so why not allow micro trimming too?

[Boozad]

An invisible serial number would go along way towards stopping the press and resub nonsense, but its certainly not in CGCs best interest to do this.

Then the question is oes a company have an obligation to the hobby or does it exist simply to wring out every last penny from its client base.

 

...Bingo,...and this has been discussed for as long as I can remember,..it's not done not because of a cost implement, but because CGC's obligation is to dealers and not collectors,..which to me throws the whole non partial argument right out the widow,...

 

I was saying exactly the same thing to you twelve hours ago as shadroch has just done but you argued with me?

[VintageComics]

Pretty sure it won't be long before there is a grading system that divides between 9.0/9.2/9.4 etc.

 

If anyone really wants to stop upgrades, just "mannup" (thank you Mitch Mhedy for the phrase) and buy the book before it gets upgraded.

 

Someone's been paying attention to me.

 

Or, more than one person has come to the same logical conclusion.

 

[bronze_rules]

An invisible serial number would go along way towards stopping the press and resub nonsense, but its certainly not in CGCs best interest to do this.

Then the question is oes a company have an obligation to the hobby or does it exist simply to wring out every last penny from its client base.

...empirically speaking, the latter.

 

 

[Rocketeer]

I was saying exactly the same thing to you twelve hours ago as shadroch has just done but you argued with me?

 

...Oh I'm sorry,..then you agree with me when I say CGC is not non partial when it comes to grading books because they are an agent of the dealer not the collector?...I'm sorry I misunderstood you

[seanfingh]

Or the question might be if a high enough percentage of their clientele couldn't care less about pressing, why should they?

 

..who's keeping score of who wants what?...maybe a high percentage of their cliet base doesn't care about micro trimming,...they just want the number in the corner,..so why not allow micro trimming too?

 

Reductio ad absurdum rarely is as effective as the proponent wants it to be. I was talking about pressing not micro-trimming, but to answer your question, it probably does stand to reason that if there were a large enough uprising in the world of graded comics, demanding that micro-trimmed books receive blue labels, CGC would probably accede. Assuming it were large enough to affect their business model. It is a ridiculous hypothetical, though.

 

To everyone whipping that dead pressing horse, though, if you look hard enough there is a little bit of hair and leathery skin waiting for your lash.

[Paratrooper]

CGC should put RFID tags in every slab and have a team of employees monitor each book's location. Sorry, each book worth over $1,000's location. For the price of the tag and additional personnel to enact this new policy it should only raise the cost of each submission by $50 or so, but for the peace of mind it's worth it! Lojack Comics now! Who's with me?

[Boozad]

I was saying exactly the same thing to you twelve hours ago as shadroch has just done but you argued with me?

 

...Oh I'm sorry,..then you agree with me when I say CGC is not non partial when it comes to grading books because they are an agent of the dealer not the collector?...I'm sorry I misunderstood you

 

No, because even if I thought that I wouldn't say it in their 'house'. I'm saying that if they implemented what you're asking they wouldn't be doing themselves any favours, and while they don't promote crack/press/resubs, they don't try to dissuade people from doing it either.

 

They're a business, they're there to make money. How do they go about doing that? By grading books. Beyond that I have no clue what they're up to.

[asr0462]

Record keeping is for wimps.

[Hammerhead]

Record keeping is for wimps.

 

+1

[Moondog]

My views on pressing have changed during the past 18-24 months. Simply put, for items in my inventory that would benefit from pressing - I press them. I'm no longer leaving money on the table.

 

CPR is another matter. The cracker/presser/re-submitter is taking advantage of someone's ignorance - who originally put their trust in CGC to certify a grade.

 

I think this is the morality that Rocketeer speaks of. It's unsavory, disgusting, and immoral - but not immoral on the part of CGC. CGC is a corporation and not capable of acting morally or immorally. It does what it needs to do to sustain itself no matter what. The exploiters though are a different story. They prey on their fellow collectors and dealers and understand the corporation is there to aid and abet in their scheme.

 

This is the state of our hobby.

 

[Ares]

Who Decides a books Value?

[GACollectibles]

My views on pressing have changed during the past 18-24 months. Simply put, for items in my inventory that would benefit from pressing - I press them. I'm no longer leaving money on the table.

 

 

 

I hope, for just the slightest hint of balance in this universe, that you send your books to joeypost.

[Rocketeer]

My views on pressing have changed during the past 18-24 months. Simply put, for items in my inventory that would benefit from pressing - I press them. I'm no longer leaving money on the table.

 

CPR is another matter. The cracker/presser/re-submitter is taking advantage of someone's ignorance - who originally put their trust in CGC to certify a grade.

 

I think this is the morality that Rocketeer speaks of. It's unsavory, disgusting, and immoral - but not immoral on the part of CGC. CGC is a corporation and not capable of acting morally or immorally. It does what it needs to do to sustain itself no matter what. The exploiters though are a different story. They prey on their fellow collectors and dealers and understand the corporation is there to aid and abet in their scheme.

 

This is the state of our hobby.

 

.....I couldn't put it any better,..I will end this argument here,...

[bronze_rules]

Who Decides a books Value?

 

 

The more persuasive of a buyer and a seller?