o/t...science fair project ideas

[Primetime]

so my daughter alyssa read the thread through last night and asked me if I wanted her to do a project on comic books she didn't have a clue what that was about...

 

but my buddy primetime did call her and give her some great ideas!...thanks ben!

(thumbs u

[Timely]

I thought it was an absolute given that SA Marvels were trimmed after folding, especially based on all the edges i specifically looked at for those tell tale landmarks.

 

 

No doubt about it! When the books were trimmed they were probably still somewhat damp, and as the books dried, the interior pages shrunk more than the cover, which gives you the naturally occurring overhangs you see today.

[adamstrange]

I thought it was an absolute given that SA Marvels were trimmed after folding, especially based on all the edges i specifically looked at for those tell tale landmarks.

 

 

No doubt about it! When the books were trimmed they were probably still somewhat damp, and as the books dried, the interior pages shrunk more than the cover, which gives you the naturally occurring overhangs you see today.

If the pages shrunk, then why do they extend beyond the cover?

If the pages shrunk, why are they usually aligned perfectly on the top and bottom edges?

 

I don't think this is a slam dunk.

[Timely]

I thought it was an absolute given that SA Marvels were trimmed after folding, especially based on all the edges i specifically looked at for those tell tale landmarks.

 

 

No doubt about it! When the books were trimmed they were probably still somewhat damp, and as the books dried, the interior pages shrunk more than the cover, which gives you the naturally occurring overhangs you see today.

If the pages shrunk, then why do they extend beyond the cover?

If the pages shrunk, why are they usually aligned perfectly on the top and bottom edges?

 

I don't think this is a slam dunk.

 

When the pages extend beyond the cover, the book was printed either miscut or off-center. More than likely, either the cover or the interior shifted during the stapling process. When the books "shrank" it was not enough to pull the pages back into the book. Theses companies did their best to print comics as cheaply as possible. As long as the book was sellable and the cover was not terribly messed up, it went on the newsstand.

 

I cannot tell you how many books I see printed with 4 staples, 2 through the cover & 4 through the pages. Why? Because the 1st time the book went through the printing process, there was a large enough problem with the cover that they tore the cover off the book and sent the interior though again.

[adamstrange]

I thought it was an absolute given that SA Marvels were trimmed after folding, especially based on all the edges i specifically looked at for those tell tale landmarks.

 

 

No doubt about it! When the books were trimmed they were probably still somewhat damp, and as the books dried, the interior pages shrunk more than the cover, which gives you the naturally occurring overhangs you see today.

If the pages shrunk, then why do they extend beyond the cover?

If the pages shrunk, why are they usually aligned perfectly on the top and bottom edges?

 

I don't think this is a slam dunk.

 

When the pages extend beyond the cover, the book was printed either miscut or off-center. More than likely, either the cover or the interior shifted during the stapling process. When the books "shrank" it was not enough to pull the pages back into the book. Theses companies did their best to print comics as cheaply as possible. As long as the book was sellable and the cover was not terribly messed up, it went on the newsstand.

 

I cannot tell you how many books I see printed with 4 staples, 2 through the cover & 4 through the pages. Why? Because the 1st time the book went through the printing process, there was a large enough problem with the cover that they tore the cover off the book and sent the interior though again.

 

I disagree with the alignment/error causing the pages to stick out as it is often the norm, not the exception. When you see it on an issue, almost every copy has it, regardless of which decade it's from. All SA Marvels have interior pages sticking out on the edge.

 

You didn't address this question: If the pages shrunk, why are they usually aligned perfectly on the top and bottom edges?

 

Some of this is going over what we already discussed in the thread and, if you haven't, it might be worthwhile to review some of the prior back & forth.

[Timely]

I thought it was an absolute given that SA Marvels were trimmed after folding, especially based on all the edges i specifically looked at for those tell tale landmarks.

 

 

No doubt about it! When the books were trimmed they were probably still somewhat damp, and as the books dried, the interior pages shrunk more than the cover, which gives you the naturally occurring overhangs you see today.

If the pages shrunk, then why do they extend beyond the cover?

If the pages shrunk, why are they usually aligned perfectly on the top and bottom edges?

 

I don't think this is a slam dunk.

 

When the pages extend beyond the cover, the book was printed either miscut or off-center. More than likely, either the cover or the interior shifted during the stapling process. When the books "shrank" it was not enough to pull the pages back into the book. Theses companies did their best to print comics as cheaply as possible. As long as the book was sellable and the cover was not terribly messed up, it went on the newsstand.

 

I cannot tell you how many books I see printed with 4 staples, 2 through the cover & 4 through the pages. Why? Because the 1st time the book went through the printing process, there was a large enough problem with the cover that they tore the cover off the book and sent the interior though again.

 

I disagree with the alignment/error causing the pages to stick out as it is often the norm, not the exception. When you see it on an issue, almost every copy has it, regardless of which decade it's from. All SA Marvels have interior pages sticking out on the edge.

 

You didn't address this question: If the pages shrunk, why are they usually aligned perfectly on the top and bottom edges?

 

Some of this is going over what we already discussed in the thread and, if you haven't, it might be worthwhile to review some of the prior back & forth.

 

You didn't address this question: If the pages shrunk, why are they usually aligned perfectly on the top and bottom edges?

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this?

 

Are you saying the pages are aligned with each other or with the cover? The pages are usually not aligned with the cover, the cover is usually larger, creating an overhang on the top and bottom.

 

If you are asking why are the pages aligned with each other? Well, that's because the pages shrank together.

 

With Silver Age books, the pages shrink vertically (top to bottom) and not horizontally.

 

The "V" cut on the right edge is simply a function of mathematics. Each page is the same dimension, so when the page is folded in half at the spine, each wrap has more area to cover as it bends around the spine, leaving less paper to extend out to the opening edge.

[adamstrange]

I will do a longer reply this evening but all of your questions and the responses I have to your post are already in the thread.

[Ze-man]

I thought it was an absolute given that SA Marvels were trimmed after folding, especially based on all the edges i specifically looked at for those tell tale landmarks.

 

 

No doubt about it! When the books were trimmed they were probably still somewhat damp, and as the books dried, the interior pages shrunk more than the cover, which gives you the naturally occurring overhangs you see today.

If the pages shrunk, then why do they extend beyond the cover?

If the pages shrunk, why are they usually aligned perfectly on the top and bottom edges?

 

I don't think this is a slam dunk.

 

OK, I think we need to take into account the physical properties of newsprint vs cover stock.

 

Here me out as it is hard to try and type out succinctly while I eat lunch.

 

With interior newsprint, the papers fibers are aligned more vertically, while cover stock is more horizontal. So they shrink/pull in opposite directions, generally.

 

This might be part of the reason why a cover shrinks side to side and an interior shrinks top to bottom. Possibly creating overhang and or v effect during production, or over years though various storage conditions.

 

I have had the luxury of washing and measuring enough covers and interiors to see how they react when wet/dry. Typically aqueous washed covers are notorious for shrinking width wise ,making the covers outer edge fall short of the interior. You see this all the time with washed/restored comics.

 

Same with interiors, they can shrink in length due to the papers long fibers contracting when they dry. Granted it all depends on how wet the paper becomes, and how it is blotted dry.

 

I took a few quick photos(and don't worry, the comics that were harmed came from a dog pile of tattered comics used for donor parts.)

 

 

As you can see, when you tear an interior newsprint page it will cleanly tear vertically, but when you try and make a clean tear horizontally it never follows a straight path. Which leads me to believe the paper is made in such a fashion that the fibers are aligned more vertically then horizontally.

 

And with comic cover stock..you can see it behaves in the opposite fashion. Clean tears side to side, and ragged tears vertically.

 

And my totally dimensionally, non accurate, incorrect arrows diagram to illustrate the papers fibers and how they might affect overhang,shrinkage, v effect and other assorted production related maladies!

 

I will leave it to smarter people then myself to make sense of what I so quickly tried to demonstrate with my 8th grade science project.

 

 

 

 

 

[zzutak]

I'm convinced! (thumbs u (thumbs u

[comicparadox]

Why didn't you use an Amazing Fantasy 15 for this demonstration? Now THAT would be a science project!

As you can see, when you tear an interior newsprint page it will cleanly tear vertically, but when you try and make a clean tear horizontally it never follows a straight path. Which leads me to believe the paper is made in such a fashion that the fibers are aligned more vertically then horizontally.[/b]

 

And with comic cover stock..you can see it behaves in the opposite fashion. Clean tears side to side, and ragged tears vertically.

 

 

[VintageComics]

Kenny, I would think that the paper would shrink against the grain and not with it.

 

No?

 

Sorry to confuse but in my mind if the paper tears more easy along the grain (let's say it's vertically for the sake of discussion), there is weakness along those lines where the tear is happening and the paper would have a tendency to shrink those weak areas so it would shrink horizontally.

 

Almost like a wall reinforced with beams. It's much easier to compress a wall horizontally if it has vertical beams than it is to compress it vertically (against the beam's lenght).

 

Does that make sense?

 

Am I wrong?

 

 

[G.A.tor]

Kenny, I would think that the paper would shrink against the grain and not with it.

 

No?

 

Sorry to confuse but in my mind if the paper tears more easy along the grain (let's say it's vertically for the sake of discussion), there is weakness along those lines where the tear is happening and the paper would have a tendency to shrink those weak areas so it would shrink horizontally.

 

Almost like a wall reinforced with beams. It's much easier to compress a wall horizontally if it has vertical beams than it is to compress it vertically (against the beam's lenght).

 

Does that make sense?

 

Am I wrong?

 

yes...errr..no...uym...yes

[TheSurgeon]

Sounds like this could be the subject of an 8th grade science project. Or a 40 something year old man's science project.

[Ze-man]

Kenny, I would think that the paper would shrink against the grain and not with it.

 

No?

 

Sorry to confuse but in my mind if the paper tears more easy along the grain (let's say it's vertically for the sake of discussion), there is weakness along those lines where the tear is happening and the paper would have a tendency to shrink those weak areas so it would shrink horizontally.

 

Almost like a wall reinforced with beams. It's much easier to compress a wall horizontally if it has vertical beams than it is to compress it vertically (against the beam's lenght).

 

Does that make sense?

 

Am I wrong?

 

 

I believe so. Maybe.

 

You are thinking in terms of compressing something, not having something contract naturally.

 

The longer strands of cellulose fibers that seem to run directionally in the paper lend themselves to greater shrinkage then the broken hemi cellulose cross fibers do.

 

Whether it is the sizing present in the paper, or the pulp itself. If left to it's own devices something causes contraction as it dries. (rather then under controlled weight in blotters)

 

And this contraction seems to be consistent with how the fibers run. Especially in a washed outer cover.

 

I am just going by what I see everyday in regards to on hand resto related stuff,and making some educated guesses. I in no way mean to come off as an authority.

 

Just wanted to throw it out there to add to the discussion to see if it sparked a new train of thought, confirmed part of something, or was debunked completely.

 

I suppose I stare at comic paper too much.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Timely]

If left to it's own devices something causes contraction as it dries.

 

Oxidation.

[VintageComics]

And this contraction seems to be consistent with how the fibers run. Especially in a washed outer cover.

 

I am just going by what I see everyday in regards to on hand resto related stuff,and making some educated guesses. I in no way mean to come off as an authority.

 

Gotcha! Just to be clear, I don't have a dog in this race. Just very interested to know the truth.

 

So since you have experience with wet and dry paper, have you measured or noticed:

 

a) expansion and contraction of a wet washed cover?

b) a difference in the way covers from different eras react?

c) a difference between interiors and covers?

 

[adamstrange]

With interior newsprint, the papers fibers are aligned more vertically, while cover stock is more horizontal. So they shrink/pull in opposite directions, generally.

 

This might be part of the reason why a cover shrinks side to side and an interior shrinks top to bottom. Possibly creating overhang and or v effect during production, or over years though various storage conditions.

I think this is useful and pertinent to the discussion. I'm less confident of what happens to the comics during printing with regards to shrinkage vs. mechanical effects and your explanation could be a part of what goes on there.

 

If the shrinkage occurs over a long period of time, then I would expect to see far more variability in the edges of books and the differential between covers and interiors. That is, I know that a side or two of a book are often exposed to slightly different environmental factors. For example, there are books with foxing along one edge or that have significant tanning long one or more edges. You would expect these types of environmental differences to cause noticeable uneven shrinkage.

[Ted Knight]

There are three expansion / contraction variables if you consider the direction it is being rolled in tension when wet, the sizing agent that is used and how it is applied, and the direction of the sheet grain. Some combination of all of these things could easily explain all of the phenomena being discussed.

 

I am almost certain that the majority of the contraction of the body took place in the first few hours and days of the books life. There may be additional contraction of the paper over the rest of the books existence but the curve is steepest in the first few days. Virtually every hygroscopic material on earth behaves in a similar fashion. From brick to concrete to wood to paper to cloth. It's based upon the rate of drying relative to wetting and the second law of thermodynamics.

 

Proper resizing agents would minimize contraction over the life of the book in a given direction. Perhaps the SA Marvels were just done poorly due to cost. I really do believe that cost played a major role in why the SA Marvels have the overhang at the top and bottom, either by cheaper lower quality newsprint or failure to use proper resizing agents. I also think that after market micro-trimming (not a new thing) plays a role in confusing the phenomena (sadly). It's not a pleasant thought but I think it has to be considered.

[adamstrange]

If the shrinkage happens shortly after printing, why the taper to the right edge?

[Ted Knight]

If the shrinkage happens shortly after printing, why the taper to the right edge?

 

Perhaps the best way to understand this is to perform some experiments as Ze-man has already begun. Take 16 pages of newsprint (cheaper the better), wet them consistently with a roller, partially air dry them individually, stack together and staple at the middle, fold them in half and cut along the other three sides. Measure the finished product and then continue drying them for the next day.

 

See if any or all of the phenomena repeats. I might even exaggerate the length in one direction or another to amplify differences. Isolate variables, etc.

 

I don't have time to do this for the next few weeks, but if no one else does in the meantime, then I will do so and document the findings.