Daredevil #190 cover 0

[Ferran Delgado]

Since I have a very large scan of the Bizarre Adventures page courtesy of its owner, J. Sid, I tried to find pencil traces, but it's almost impossible to see in areas with darkened chemicals. But in this panel you can see some traces in the couple of guys and in the bottom right corner.

 

Proof enough?

 

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[Bronty]

OK so Klaus is wrong about craftint in general. Great discussion here.

 

I am curious though - is he wrong about #190? His information on that particular piece is pretty specific.

[artdealer]

Since Klaus was wrong about everything, he's wrong about #190.

 

MI

[Bronty]

all I know is I'm glad I don't collect from this run. Waters are too murky for my taste. Although some of these pieces look more clearly miller than others. The bizarre adventures page I'd bet the farm was frank pencil underneath or no. The ASM annual... I'm not so sure.

[Ferran Delgado]

I took a closer look at Mandel's DD #181 cover and in fact THERE ARE pencil traces, but only in margins. If you compare them to the layout of DD #167 finished by McLeod, you can see similar strokes.

 

[Ferran Delgado]

About the DD #190 cover, if you compare the mouth of the published cover vs a darkened image of the original art, you can find some pencil traces in teeth.

 

 

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

 

[bocaratondefense]

Ferran, What do pencil traces prove? That is not inconsistent with what Klaus said. Klaus said he redrew it or traced it (presumably with pencil) and then he inked it.

 

 

 

 

FROM KLAUS ... Spencer-I don't think that this was done on 8.5X11 paper as if I remember correctly, the covers were done full size- But since the cover was done on craf t-tint, Frank did the pencils on regular cover stock and I redreww it or traced it onto craft tint paper and then inked it. Frank never penciled anything on craft tint. I was the one who used that and introduced it into the DD run. Hope that answers the questions.

KJ

 

 

 

[Ferran Delgado]

I think that if you lightbox a drawing, strokes are quite different than if you draw it from zero. In fact, someone so skilled and with so much experience like Janson in fact could ink directly on the board with no need to use a pencil. We're talking about Janson, who was not famous for being very faithful to Miller's pencils.

 

I'm sure that an artist from this thread could explain it in a better way what I'm trying to communicate in a cumpsy way.

 

The few visibles strokes in DD 181 cover looks like the same loose strokes Miller used in the DD #167 cover, and I don't think that Janson would do something like this when lightboxing. ¿Why to trace outside of the borders...?

 

Just speculating...

Edited November 24, 2011 by Ferran Delgado

[bocaratondefense]

Here is an old thread with with side by side comparisons of some original Miller pencils compared with Janson inks. The finished inked pages look very faithful to the original pencils to me. These are from Daredevil #172 where Janson inked directly over Miller pencils on board.

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=160754&Number=4604151#Post4604151

 

[Ferran Delgado]

Yes, but #172 was the last issue where Miller did full pencils. From #173 till 184 Miller did breakdowns directly on the art board, and from #185 to 190 Miller laid out in a small paper and didn't touch the artwork, which is 100% Janson.

 

This is a sample from #190...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VAXZFsTyKzc/TosembdLOsI/AAAAAAAAH6c/qaZPjjJ6UeI/s1600/MillerDD190splashComp.jpg

And take a look at Miller's pencils, which look very different than if someone would trace them, who would choose the right lines among all the scribble.

 

This is exactly my point...

[bocaratondefense]

.... and from #185 to 190 Miller laid out in a small paper and didn't touch the artwork, which is 100% Janson.

 

Is this true for the covers as well?

 

[Ferran Delgado]

According to Mitch and Janson, no. But anyway the #190 cover looks too much Janson to me, so my guess is that he added his personal touch to it. I can't imagine Janson tracing every line by Miller with full precision, and afterwards, getting loose...

 

If you're going to get loose, you don't waste your time tracing all the lines with exactitude...

[blowout]

Has Frank Miller himself ever made a statement on this issue? Have we ever had any direct confirmation from him as to what he did or didn't do regards art on his DD run? Surely this can't be that hard to clarify.

 

All this anecdotal, second and third party information only succeeds in muddying the waters further. For such a major run on a major title, it just seems crazy that there is so much misinformation.

[VintageComics]

Being a lifelong Miller fan, I had always believed that Miller did cover pencils and interior layouts for #185 - 190 and the interior pencils and complete cover to #191.

 

#184 and earlier interiors were Miller pencils (not just layouts).

 

I can't remember for the life of me why I thought so about the more ambiguously credited issues but I think it was because I thought I had a pretty good eye for spotting Miller's pencils and differentiating from Klaus' pencils at the time and I think that was the way I deduced it.

 

Edit. Just realized that the cover to #190 is also signed by Miller and Janson.

 

 

[Ferran Delgado]

The main source to tell that Miller did layouts in a different sheet for #185-190 is the interview to Janson published in Back Issue #21 mag. But I don't know how the Craftint issue could affect the trust on Janson's memories.

 

I'm trying to get confirmation that #191 had Miller pencils by asking Terry Austin through third parties. I also think that they are full pencils over the artboard.

 

The source for the statement that Miller began to do layouts from #173 till #184 is also Back Issue #21. Philippe Cordier, the interviewer to Janson, says that till #172 Miler spotted blacks but he stopped doing so because his trust on Janson growed. He also commented that Miller still drawed directly on the board, and another reason to start doing layouts is that by #173 it was a couple of months after the book went to monthly schedule.

 

Janson comments that he started using craftint in #177, in the cover and in the flashbacks of interior pages.

 

Again the doubts if those interior pages are 100% Janson or not. According the cover and Miller's handwritten note, they should be Miller/Janson.

[VintageComics]

I'm tempted to flip through all of my DD issues to see if I can spot where the art actually changes now.

 

I'll have to pull them out to do that.

[artdealer]

The main source to tell that Miller did layouts in a different sheet for #185-190 is the interview to Janson published in Back Issue #21 mag. But I don't know how the Craftint issue could affect the trust on Janson's memories.

 

I'm trying to get confirmation that #191 had Miller pencils by asking Terry Austin through third parties. I also think that they are full pencils over the artboard.

 

The source for the statement that Miller began to do layouts from #173 till #184 is also Back Issue #21. Philippe Cordier, the interviewer to Janson, says that till #172 Miler spotted blacks but he stopped doing so because his trust on Janson growed. He also commented that Miller still drawed directly on the board, and another reason to start doing layouts is that by #173 it was a couple of months after the book went to monthly schedule.

 

Janson comments that he started using craftint in #177, in the cover and in the flashbacks of interior pages.

 

Again the doubts if those interior pages are 100% Janson or not. According the cover and Miller's handwritten note, they should be Miller/Janson.

 

Yes Terry inked the art over Franks pencils.

 

MI

[Ferran Delgado]

Thanks!

[heartened]

This argument about Miller/Janson and the transition in art is a bit ridiculous. The bottom line is that Miller and Janson were an unbelievable team on this run, and neiher did it alone. Why we feel the need to idolize pencilers and disparage inkers is beyond me. You cannot separate the two on a run such as this, which frankly is yes partly about the art but mostly about the exquisite story and mood it created. The nostalgia, again, is all about the story, not the art. I agree that if you want art from this it should be art that both people touched and created, so a pure Janson piece of work doesn't have the same resonance. But, from all accounts that I've heard over the years, it is safe to say that Miller and Janson worked together at least till issue 181 (on the interiors) and maybe to issue 185. Personally, for me, my love for the run centers on the Elektra saga, and so that run from 168 to 181 will always command a huge premium whether it was all Miller, all Janson or as we all know to be true some combination of Miller and Janson that together made magic.

 

My two cents.

 

Hari

 

Edited November 28, 2011 by heartened

[bocaratondefense]

The main source to tell that Miller did layouts in a different sheet for #185-190 is the interview to Janson published in Back Issue #21 mag. But I don't know how the Craftint issue could affect the trust on Janson's memories.

 

I'm trying to get confirmation that #191 had Miller pencils by asking Terry Austin through third parties. I also think that they are full pencils over the artboard.

 

The source for the statement that Miller began to do layouts from #173 till #184 is also Back Issue #21. Philippe Cordier, the interviewer to Janson, says that till #172 Miler spotted blacks but he stopped doing so because his trust on Janson growed. He also commented that Miller still drawed directly on the board, and another reason to start doing layouts is that by #173 it was a couple of months after the book went to monthly schedule.

 

Janson comments that he started using craftint in #177, in the cover and in the flashbacks of interior pages.

 

Again the doubts if those interior pages are 100% Janson or not. According the cover and Miller's handwritten note, they should be Miller/Janson.

 

 

This interview in Back magazine is what I always reference as well.

 

The issues from #173 to 184 I still consider to be Frank Miller original art, since he actually loosely penciled the layouts onto the boards. Starting with DD #185 Miller no longer penciled on board, but rather he only did preliminary layouts on separate smaller pieces of paper. So if a dealer tried to sell me a page from DD #185, I would value that page as a Klaus Janson only page.